South Africa plays a leading role in the drive to eliminate gender inequality – spearheaded by the UN’s head of Women Affairs Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka. As one of the top five at the global organisation and with a target of total equality by 2030, Sa’s former Deputy President will be delighted to see progress being made in the workplace back home. RMB’s award-winning Athena Project is blazing a trail others have started to replicate. I caught up with the bank’s Liesl Bebb-McKay to find out more about this innovative project which takes practical steps to permanently change the workplace. – Alec Hogg
This special podcast is brought to you by RMB, whose Liesl Bebb-McKay joins us now from Johannesburg. Liesl, all around the world equality in the workplace is an issue that is coming more into focus. At RMB decided, and particularly the women at RMB, decided to do something about it about a year ago. What triggered the conversation?
We realised that quite a few senior women were leaving our bank. As we looked back in history we realised these women were leaving banking at a very specific time and that they werenât really coming back. We decided that we needed to do something about it, as senior women leaving is very bad for your path finder of leadership. Â Our ultimate goal is to see more women leading in financial services.
When you say âspecific timeâ when?
Around the five-year mark, five years into their career and leadership journey when theyâre pretty much shooting the lights out. Something seems to happen and thatâs when women tend to leave banking.
So up until that point itâs almost an equal stream for both men and women, and then five years later⌠Why do they go?
We call it a leaky path line. What we see is girls excelling at school and university, entering the bank being equal to men at junior leadership level. Then they either grow physically or they grow in their own abilities. They then take a lesser role or they take time out, or they step down completely. There are many reasons and itâs a complicated topic, but itâs a combination of things in the culture that we live in â the asymmetrical work allocation that women still have, even in this modern day, bias in the workplace but, more importantly, bias in our own heads, bias in women. Itâs about having it all and the impossibility of that at the same time. At some point it either becomes too overwhelming or you embrace  having it all in a very competitive environment.
Itâs fascinating. My very first boss and now weâre going back 35 years, was a woman, Penelope Gracie, an absolute superstar in her own way but I guess she also hit her head against the glass ceiling or perhaps concrete ceiling, as it then was. She went off and started her own business, where she was very successful too. Do many women do that?
Exactly, so many women create an environment that is more women friendly. These women entrepreneurs pop up, or women simply take time out to do something completely different, which may not necessarily involve using their amazing leadership or deal making skills. The question is how do we create a space where women can thrive throughout their career or their whole lifecycle? Thatâs what weâre hoping to achieve at RMB.
Read also:Â Gender discrimination: Naming, shaming asset managers
So a space within a corporate, itâs fine if you can go outside. You can make your own space but within an organisation, (a corporate organisation) it is more difficult. What are the challenges that you have to address?
So the first one is of course time and the ancient concept of 8 to 5 – Industrial Revolution stuff which still exists in our corporate world. The notion that this person needs to be at work during a certain set of hours. That doesnât work for modern human beings and especially not for modern women. Thatâs the biggest challenge and in fact, we think that is the game changer – itâs about creating a space where women can work the hours they wish to work. Letâs face it, in the modern day we can all work whenever we want, how we want, and where we want. To restrict the way that business works to a certain set of hours is incredibly limiting for women.
Not just for women. I think just for the business itself. Youâre putting people into a box, but why do you think it survived that long? Why do we still have this 8 to 5 mentality?
Controversially, if you think it works for existing leadership it will continue to exist, and thatâs why weâre pushing so hard to change the face of leadership to have more women in such positions. If you donât understand that something is a limitation, and if youâve never experienced it personally, how will you know how to change it? Whereas, if you have a more powerful voice representing the minority in the room, it will create a greater understanding that will bring about change. We are already seeing the change having two women on our board. It makes an incredible difference just in terms of knowing the things that make a difference. Itâs not purposeful. Itâs just an awareness issue and thatâs why having women in leadership positions is so very important.
Thatâs an interesting point you make. Two women on the board, what have they shared with you about the issues that otherwise might not have been addressed that theyâre able to raise?
The issue of flexible working hours is a very important one because both of them, as mothers, understand that you have sacrifices to make to be successful, but those sacrifices are very particular to your own journey. This is actually one of the things we talk about in our Athena Programme. To be a leader you are going to have to work exceptionally hard and there will be things that fall by the wayside – traditionally it has been time with your family. What has changed is the realisation that you perhaps donât read as much or see your friends or exercise, and that time with your family doesnât have to be given up. This awareness, this lesson, and this journey â this role model for other women, is incredibly liberating.
Liesl, you mention the Athena Programme. Thatâs an interesting name.
Yes, Athena. Athena is a Greek goddess, as you know, representing a warrior-type of concept, but also everything about community and mathematics, and it also represents both male and female. So Athena, born of man, born out of Zeus, is a perfect role model for us. Indicatively when we looked at what Athena stood for, it aligned quite strongly with the RMB brand, which is inspiring and relates to both mathematics and the community. All of these things appeal to us at RMB, but also the fact that it embraces both men and women. When we talk about our programme it is not a âwomen for women programme.â It is a programme for both men and women – understanding the business case of gender equality. Thatâs why Athena was so relevant for us because of this unique icon that represents both male and female in all of us.
Where did you get the inspiration for that from? Where did the thought about calling this Athena come from?
The team that had conceptualised this gender conversation as we call it, threw a ton of ideas around. We were grappling with a name and we felt very strongly that we wanted to create something that could come alive. We stumbled upon Athena, and once we started figuring out what she stood for, we just knew that was the right name. Interestingly, weâve since seen Athena popping up in female literature all over. In fact, in Arianna Huffingtonâs book âThriveâ, she speaks of the concept of Athena. It has been interesting to see the other links to Athena around the world.
Arianna is an interesting story, starting her company, running it well, and only recently deciding to go off and make her contribution in a different way. Did she give you much inspiration? Is she much of a role model?
Absolutely. Part of one of our core pillars in Athena is planning your career differently. So traditionally you would start your career at 20, work really hard through to your 30s and give it your all. As you get to 40 you buy the Porsche and become the boss. Now, thatâs not how careers work now, and there are role models all over, not just women but men as well. Thatâs what weâre teaching women in RMB: to plan your career a little bit differently. Have some scaffolding in place. There are times in your life when you may want to step down, step out, do something different, or slow down. But you have to realise all the while that there is going to come a time in all probability that youâre going to be ready to come back. So make sure that you plan your career with that in mind. For example, donât isolate yourself from the world of banking if you might decide to go back to the financial services industry, , or whatever the career is that you have chosen. When youâre ready to put your foot on that accelerator again, make sure youâre ready to slide back in and carry on climbing the ladder. Sheâs done that, and so did the women on our board – so theyâre incredible role models.
Read also:Â WEF Gender Report: SA climbs to 17th. Economic gap to close by 2133.
I guess there are a few that you could point to in banking, Maria Ramos, Wendy Lucas-Bull and others who would be coming through, but it is early days. Athena has only been at it for the past year. Are you already seeing any success stories inside the group?
Yes, we are and I think the biggest success story is the amplification of the dialogue. We knew we had the need for diversity, especially in gender. It wasnât something that we had shone a light on. The permission it almost gives the organisation to change is phenomenal. To see the change in attitude and the fact that it empowers others to contribute in ways that they may not have before is very inspiring. I would say the biggest success for our group has been the mobilisation around gender. FirstRand has a group of brands come together now on the topic and we are seeing how we change the world for women in leadership, both within FirstRand but also in the South African context. Watch this space because I think youâll see a lot of focus from FirstRand in the next year on this.
How are the men reacting to it?
Thatâs interesting. Part of our philosophy is that men matter. That might sound completely counterintuitive but if men are leading, they really do matter. For change to happen leadership has to buy in, so men have to buy in and we have been incredibly well supported in RMB, by our leadership, (by the men), and itâs been quite interesting. Again – this conversation confirms that there is both male and female in all of us and once it becomes a conversation, weâre finding incredible and inspirational stories from men sponsoring women. It has really been incredible to watch men take on a conversation they wouldnât traditionally take on, and totally embrace it.
When you say âmen sponsoring womenâ how does that work?
In business sponsorships has happened since the beginning of time. You see someone younger than you. They remind you of yourself and you just want to make them successful, so youâll naturally bring them into your network, guide them, teach them and put them in the limelight where necessary. This is something that is just Human Behaviour 101. When your board is mostly men, a natural sponsorship of women is not going to happen as easily. Also thereâs always this discomfort when men and women spend time together, so what weâve literally said is sponsorship is so important that men need to be sponsoring women – and our challenge to our leadership has been to pick two people that donât look like you and sponsor them. Sponsorship is not to have a coffee every month. Itâs really to encourage them, connect them to your network, give them the opportunity you may not have thought of before, and push them into the limelight.
RMBâs Project Athena gender equality initiative has won the 2016 Gender Mainstreaming Award #gender pic.twitter.com/pgG08e80iA
— RMB CIB (@RMB_CIB) September 4, 2016
What about a sponsee? Letâs take that bright young person who is now getting to the risky period of being in the bank for five years, and she wants a sponsor. Where would she find one and how would she approach them?
We actually have a formal, very tailored programme now beginning at RMB, which addresses this very issue. Outside of the Athena conversation, we address some of these challenges â How do I ask for help? How do I promote myself? How do I network better? Whatâs my business case and how do I share that? How do I build RMB as a woman? These things need to be answered for those mentees or sponsees, as you call them. These are the tools they need.
Sheryl Sandberg wrote a brilliant book called âLean-Inâ do you apply any of those principles?
Yes, I think Sherylâs book was a catalyst for much of this global conversation and much of what she says is exactly this concept of there are âvoicesâ in our heads of how we as women have been programmed from birth. The first person you see leaning over your cot is your mum. You know that mum should be at home instinctively. When I say know it, itâs these things we âknowâ that are not true. Itâs how we learn from what sheâs written, and others about the truths that arenât true. The things that are in our heads that we have told ourselves that may not necessarily be true.
Well we now see heads of General Motors, IBM, most recently this week, GSK, women are coming through the ranks. Maybe even the biggest job of all, Hilary Clinton, just around the corner. Do you think that they are providing encouragement to those who would otherwise have fallen by the wayside after those five years?
Absolutely, and when we say that women leave at five years â a lot of the reasons we think women leave is because they look at their careers and go âthere is no one up there that looks like meâ. So the more women up there who look like you, the more you will actually believe that you too can have a career, as a mum in a corporate or as a woman in the corporate world. These role models are so essential and a lot of our work, for the next while, is going to be focused on how do we bring these women into the media in a much bigger way. How do we really change the face of our conferences, of our talks, specifically on the radio, so that we are hearing amazing women leaders. Because they are there. It is just not the way women traditionally are – to put themselves into the limelight, to stand out as role models.
Liesl, Iâve got two daughters. Iâve always tried to say to them they can do anything that any boy can do, but how would you encourage them? What would you say to my two girls to say that you donât have to accept second best?
You donât have to accept second best. As a girl, I think the strongest message is that you can do whatever you want, just like youâve taught your girls. Resilience is so important, but also to say: understanding your life is going to be complex and thatâs okay. You donât have to give yourself an âAâ in every single aspect of your life, every single time. There will be times for an âAâ in your career. Thereâll be times for an âAâ as a mum. There are times for an âAâ as a wife. You donât have to get all those âAsâ all at the same time and I think the lesson for girls is âplan your life with all these balances because as women, we like to do so much. We want to have it all and you can, but you canât excel at everything, all at the same time. Rather focus on important things at different stages, and donât let any of those balls run away. Keep them slightly in the air so that when youâre ready to throw them high, you can.
So at RMB, Athena is getting roots. Itâs been going for a year now. Are you seeing similar programmes at other banking institutions, or indeed other South African companies? Are people knocking on your door to say âhow are you doing this?â
Well, with the other banks weâre hoping that we get momentum, because our goal all along with Athena has been to increase the number of women in financial services. Itâs never really just been about RMB or FirstRand. As part of the 30 Percent Club, which RMB has signed up for, these conversations are now coming together. How do we learn from each other as corporates? How do we learn from what you are doing at AngloGold Ashanti or how do we learn from what you are doing in other industries? These organisations are creating a catalyst for the cause, itâs just an amazing momentum.
The 30 Per cent Club what is that?
The 30 Per cent Club started in the UK. Itâs an organisation, which has this goal to get 30 per cent of women on listed boards, globally. Interestingly, since theyâve launched in the UK almost five years ago, theyâve almost reached that goal. I think in the UK 27% of women are on boards, and they started in South Africa probably 18 months ago, and the chapter is growing. We signed up really early. We were one of the first corporates to sign up at RMB and itâs just been an incredible journey because 30%, a third of a board is definitely a voice. Thatâs an influence and thatâs still our goal for South Africa. As we see the 30 Per cent Club grow, we hope that the South African conversation gets as large as the UK one.
I guess, just to close off with appropriately. The lady who is driving women equality in the world, at the United Nations, our former Deputy President, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, has made this her priority to get to 50%, so 30%, I guess is a starting point. Is that what you guys are looking at as well?
Well, wouldnât that be amazing? We get it right in families, so why canât we get it right in corporates? We should have half the world represented on our boards. Are we really understanding half of our employees, half of our clients, or half of our communities? We need it to be equal, ultimately.
Liesl Bebb-McKay is with RMB, and this special podcast was brought to you by RMB.