LONDON — Former Springbok wing Stefan Terblanche makes a guest appearance to help Bob and Alec discover what a ‘good’ result would be for the SA team ahead of the weekend’s test match against the All Blacks. Also in episode four of Team Talk, Bob explains why things would be very complicated if his 19 year old self were faced with decisions he had to make a couple decades back. And on the business front, Alec shares insights from his meeting with Saffer Sir Mick Davis and the inimitable Tich Smith, plus insights on cricket and McKinsey’s infection with the Gupta Curse. – Alec HoggÂ
Well, here we have our new episode of Team Talk. Bob Skinstad has been travelling the world on business adventures, Scandinavia, Continental Europe but you’re back in England for the moment.
I am certainly back in England. I had a rugby adventure, which I’ll tell you about, it was the Oktoberfest 7s so, a couple of the best things in world rugby all mixed into one pot, a beerfest and a wonderful 7s tournament. An incredible host city, etc, that was great and I’ll go into some of the depths about where they’re trying to go with that in the World 7 Series and the launch is going to happen again at the end of this year so really exciting. Cape Town (CT) has sold out, so much so that they’ve got to get a whole new temporary stand of 7 thousand extra seats, which is going to be brilliant. HSBC and everyone else are delighted about the momentum that CT has added to the series.
Well, CT was also sold out long ahead of the game against the All Blacks in CT.
You’re 100% right because everybody was worked up about that game and then SA took a pounding from the All Blacks away from home. I’ve had one or two conversations with an old friend of mine, who we’re going to grab on the line now and a big welcome to the show. His debut on our Team Talk Show, certainly not a debut in terms of media and understanding sport, Stephan Terblanche, how are you?
Hi, Bob and Alec thank you very much for having me. Bob, you spoke about CT 7s, and you spoke about the All Black Test. I’m fortunate that I’m going to both. I’m a little bit weary and a little bit nervous about this weekend’s game at Newlands but I’m still looking forward to go and support the Springboks.
My friend, you’ve always been very pragmatic and supportive of the Springboks. As an ex-player I almost think it’s an unwritten rule that that’s what you do to the best of your ability but is there just a gap opening up between us and the All Blacks, and are there reasons for it that are beyond just the fact that we are all players competing? Is there more to it than that?
Bob, that’s a very good question and I think you have to answer it honestly and it’s the only way to answer it. We support the Springboks, you support the Springboks and most of South Africans support the Springboks and when they don’t perform well in the Springbok jersey we have to talk about it. There’s no use putting your head in the sand because you will not get better and you’ll have the same conversation again the next time they play, and then again. So, for us, yes, we are disappointed with the performances, especially against the All Blacks. This weekend was a little bit better but to be fair, Australia in SA, it doesn’t matter who you play in SA in the Springbok jersey, you have to beat them.
So, yes, looking at the All Blacks at the moment, and I hate talking about them, just because I think in SA we’ve got great talent as well and we should be right up there with the All Blacks, at least number 1 or 2 in the world. At the moment, yes, they are pulling away from us. If you look at the last time… We’ve played 24 times against them, the last 24 games we’ve played, we’ve only won 6 and that’s not a good stat. The last 2 games we’ve played against them we conceded 50 points and that again, is not another good stat. So, yes, we always support the Boks and of course we’ll support the Boks. We love the guys in the green and gold but when they don’t perform well we have to look at what’s the reason for that and make sure that don’t make the same mistakes again in the next game.
As an outsider, and I need to ask both of you this, the Lions got through to the final of the Super Rugby Competition so, we can’t be that bad because they beat quite a few New Zealand teams along the way. So, what’s happening now between that and the test matches, Bob?
Well, I think that’s part of where, and Stefan has hit the nail on the head. It’s a passion from us for the team and it’s more questions that we’re asking. We’re saying, ‘we’ve got the physical presence. We’ve got the players there. Are we getting it tactically right? Are we getting it right in terms of preparation? Are we getting it right in terms of team culture? Are we getting it right in terms of strategic intent to be a better team every time we go and play because I think we’re quite erratic at the moment. You make a good point, the Lions did do well, and I also have said to a number of people that consistency is one of the most important things in rugby and to select a consistent group of players is what Johan Ackermann did. Those players went from relegation out of Super Rugby if you see the way that they were side-lined for a while, back into almost championship status or at least final status.
I think we’ve got to look at ourselves and understand where that leadership is getting it right or wrong. Stef, you’ve been closer to the process. SA Rugby at the moment, are pitching for a World Cup in 2023. They’re competing heavily because it’s Ireland and France, both Northern Hemisphere competitors because we’ve seen that the stats have gone Northern Hemisphere and then Southern Hemisphere and the pattern is weighing in their favour, as opposed to the Springboks. Do you think maybe the eyes of the leadership have been more on that pitch than actually, creating the best possible environment for the Springboks?
Yes, Bob, that’s another good question and you can keep asking these questions because they’re very relevant but maybe just going back to the Lions, and I’ll try and answer you like that. The Lions found a way and found a team culture, and found something that worked for them and they stuck to it. They knew who they were or are, and in the way they play and what they want to achieve on the rugby field with great leadership, of course Johan Ackerman and Swys de Bruin, and Rudolf Straeuli, the CEO of the Lions, and in the last 2 or 3 years they’ve been the best SA performing team in Super Rugby, without a doubt. Even if you don’t support the Lions you have to look at the results and you look at how they played and the type of style that they play.
Then with the Springboks, we’re not quite sure who we are or what we are at the moment. We’ve got to play with the ball in hand. We’re not quite there yet, in terms of the Springboks yet. Though the Lions play that sort of game so, I think the Springboks just need to find out who they are, what style they want to play and as you said, rightly so, we’ve got the physical attributes to the players. They can and they do have the skills. They just need to be coached well and make sure.
With regards to the World Cup again, in 1995, we hosted it. It’s a few years or 22 years on now, and hopefully in 2023 we’re going to have an opportunity to do that again. A stiff competition from Ireland and I think, especially France, a lot of money from the French. They have a good rugby culture and a structure in their country, with great stadiums where the guys can play. Yes, maybe we have taken our eye off and the leadership are spending more time in preparing a bid for the 2023 World Cup. But I don’t think it’s a problem that’s overnight and it’s just been happening while we’re preparing our bid for the World Cup. I think there’s been a slow sort of moving backwards and a decline in Springbok rugby for the last 3 years, if I have to be honest and if you don’t believe me, just look at the world rankings.
Currently, we’ve declined a few spots again this year. We had our worst year in Springbok rugby ever in 2016, I don’t need to go back there but yes, maybe we have taken our eyes a bit off the leadership and the way we want to play but I just think we need to make sure who we are. What we want to play? Where our strengths and weaknesses are and, as you said, we’ve got enough good players in this country. If coached well and prepared properly for test matches to beat any team in the world.
Okay so, clouds with a silver lining is the way you’re talking but it’s about some planning and some strategic intent. I think if…
Yes, Bob, we can talk about it but I think somehow, we need to be open and honest about it. It’s no use skirting around the issue. If the team is not performing well, or whatever the reason is, we need to address that because as I said earlier, otherwise we will have this conversation again after this weekend’s game against the All Blacks or at the end of their tour. It’s just some issues and something that they need to sort out and it’s nothing personal. If a guy doesn’t perform well on the weekend, it’s not a personal attack on the player. It’s a criticism of the performance and not the player. I think sometimes people get a little bit uptight and not sure about who we’re criticising here. It’s not the player but it’s the performance of that player in the Springbok jersey.
Exactly, and I think you’re being incredibly positive about it. That this is not a character analysis on the players. We know that the players will want to win but with the best intentions in the world. If you run at a brick wall, as a human, and you carry on doing it you are defining insanity because it’s not necessarily going to change. You’ve got to find a way to get around it or over it, and let’s hope that the powers that be, do that. Stef, I know that you’re doing something yourself because of the SA Rugby Legends Association. You’ve been CEO there now for a couple of years and you’ve got a national tournament, which is launching shortly. Tell us about that and introducing the game to youngsters in SA.
Yes, Bob, it’s so lekker. We, as ex-players, talk about the passion we have and this is just a way for us as ex-players to give back and to pass on our passion. Between us we’ve got years of experience. And I think that if we’ve got something and even if it’s just passion, to pass onto the youngsters. I’ve been there now for 5 years. Three years ago, we started the Carfind.co.za Iqhawe Week. It’s a National Week where all 14 rugby provinces in SA play at the under-15 level. Schools, non-traditional rugby playing schools, new schools, rural schools, schools who might not have 4 or 5 teams to play in a structured league. We created that league for them and have now given them the opportunity to play at provincial level against their peers. It’s a great tournament. We’re here today at the Bill Jardine Rugby Stadium in Johannesburg. The boys have just kicked off. We have the opening ceremony later, and it’s just great to see all the talent.
We always talk about transformation at national level and why are there not enough good players of colour who can play for the Springboks but if you look out here today and you look at the talent. We’ve got plenty of talent in this country. We just have to create a pathway for these youngsters to get to the national team and then represent the country with pride because trust me, if we do that we’ll never have the issue and talk about transformation ever again.
It’s incredible to be part of that and defining that path for the young players. Tell me, are you seeing some speedsters out there? Are there wingers in the mould of Terblanche in his heyday, scoring 4 tries. The one thing I do like as we see more and more players playing this game, it’s not just a case of players of colour playing scrumhalf or wing or fullback because they’re built differently. It’s players across every position and in particular, it’s certainly the ball players, the creative players that SA is getting an opportunity to see more of.
Bob, absolutely and just arriving, we were at the opening dinner at the Emirates Airline Park, or the old Ellis Park as some people might know it better. But to see the size of these guys. It’s kids from all demographics and from all areas of life, and to see the size and watching them play today. The skill level, there’s plenty of, and it gives me great hope for our country and especially for our national rugby team. As I said, there’s enough talent out there. We just have to create that pathway cause the boys have skill, they’ve got size – and we’re blessed in this country with talent.
Okay, Stefan I know you’re busy and you’ve got a lot of other things to do. I’m going to put you on the spot for one quick question. What is a good result for SA against the All Blacks at Newlands?
No, Bob, the coach shouldn’t worry about the result. He’s got to worry about the process.
We’re in trouble when you guys talk like this.
Exactly, no, not what will the result be but what is a good result?
A good result – from a score point of view… The thing with the All Blacks is you’ll be in the game for 60 minutes and then all of a sudden you realise, ‘I’m still in the game, I’ve got 15 minutes left,’ you almost surprise yourself because you played so well. You’ve kept the score together and it’s a close game. Then all of a sudden, 2 or 3 tries by the All Blacks. If we can be in the game with 5 or 6 points difference with 15 minutes to come. To have the belief that if we can… I’m not going to say we’re going to win this game because I don’t think we will, against the All Blacks. I have to be brutally honest and again, please don’t crucify me for this but I have to be open and honest with you. A result at this stage against the All Blacks, if we can be within 10 or 12 points against the All Black team, depending on which team they select – then we’ve had a good day at the office and it’s sad for me to think like that as a Springbok or as an ex Springbok but at the moment, that’s the reality. It doesn’t matter how you look at it, I think if we can have 10 to 12 points then we’ve had a good day at the office and again, within that process, we need to be better than how we played against Australia.
Okay so, hopefully they’re all moving in the right direction. It’s sold out at Newlands so, whether you want to see good running rugby, from either side, you’re going to see it, I can guarantee you that. We always used to tease in commentary and say, ‘that it was lovely for the All Blacks to get so many people flying over for the matches.’ But some of them are actually from CT, domestically. Hopefully there will be more people in green and gold than black and white but looking forward to the weekend.
Yes, Bob, I agree with you and hopefully, (I’m going to be at the game as well) and hopefully, as you said, we can have South Africans living in SA, supporting the Springboks – that’s non-negotiable for me.
Has Trevor Manuel changed his allegiance because remember he was very famously, for the All Blacks before?
Well, we’re going to have to play some really good rugby to convince him, I think. Stef, maybe that’s the goal for the weekend. Listen, good luck with your endeavours and well done on having a wonderful weekend and getting the talents of young SA rugby players out there. Great to chat to you and thanks so much.
Thanks guys. Thanks for the opportunity and have a great day.
Okay, cheers Stef.
Well, that was great. Just one of the points that he made there Bob, which I’d love to get your insights on, is the pathway that Stefan spoke about. The pathway into the future or when we spoke a little while ago with Gary Kirsten, he was talking about getting into the townships and helping kids in the townships and developing them that way. Is there a similar kind of approach towards rugby? Is anyone doing what Gary is doing for cricket?
Yes, well look I think what Stefan and SARLA have done is brilliant because it actually summed up the need for the gap between young kids aspiring to play sport, and we know such a tiny fraction of people who play professional sport so, it’s actually just participation. Then what they do is they get more and more solid on the age group levels so, at under 15 or under 16 some kid might seriously be saying, ‘I’m going to try and play sport well enough to get into a better high school or get to a better university, etc, and then move on towards playing representative level.’ So, they’ve summed that up and they do that very well and with the full support of SARU so, I can say that those programs are working. It is contentious because different people talk about what ages kids should be specialising, etc. We’ve seen, and it was amazing, I was in Munich on the weekend and literally, 6 and 7-year-old kids were at an academy practice and I was mesmerised.
In Munich?
In Munich, I was watching for 50 minutes these kids playing football but they were 7-year-old kids who’ve got…
Oh, soccer not rugby?
No, not rugby but obviously they say they’re specialising too early for these kids because then they isolate that sport. They don’t allow them to develop as swimmers, or basketball players, or cricketers or whatever, you know what I mean? And football becomes all-consuming but only a tiny fraction make it so, I think where Stefan and them have done well is they’re aiming at about 15/16 years old. You’ve got the passion and you’re keen and you can now make a choice. ‘Am I going to try and play slightly better rugby, to enhance my education?’ So, I think it’s a good pathway that they’ve got. I think we’ve always got to bridge that gap between the young, keen, and enthusiastic kids and then professionalism, which in its own way can be a really harsh, tough, uncompromising environment. So, I think what they’re doing is they’re giving these kids a chance to play provincially, where they wouldn’t necessarily be playing that many school and provincial type rugby games. It’s a nice top gap for them and it’s a fantastic initiative.
This is interesting because in the business world you see it increasingly, how South Africans rise to the top. I had an interview last week with Mick Davis. Let me tell you a little about his story. He comes from PE. He’s 58 years old now. He was the financial director of Eskom at 29. He’s an accountant, he did chartered accountancy. He was working for Peat Marwick, which developed into KPMG, and they wouldn’t make him a partner and he was made an offer by Eskom. He went off to work at Eskom and in those days the businesses like that, the state-owned enterprises, were very reluctant to push people too far so, you can see how smart he was. At 29, financial director of Eskom. He continued there for a period of time and then he moved off to Gencor. He helped Gencor to develop Billiton. He put together BHP Billiton (that group). He left BHP Billiton to start Xstrata, which he started on his own. He built that from a $500m to a $60bn company. Now, he really is the ‘top of the heap.’
He then did the merger between Xstrata and Glencore, and left there and started again with a company called X2, which he’s now developed for a while. He hit a few issues with his investors, gave the money back and a couple of months ago, after the British election. Theresa May knocked on his door, he is now Sir Mick Davis for the way the accolades have given him here in the UK. She knocked on his door and said, ‘we need you to help us with in the Conservative Party.’ He is now the CEO of the British Governing Party, and here is a boy from PE. So, it just shows you how South Africans, when they get the opportunities in the global arena, they do achieve. On the sports side though, you’re seeing this increasingly. Clearly CJ Stander playing for Ireland is an obvious example, but are you seeing other youngsters who are immediately taking a Kevin Pietersen route or a CJ Stander route, rather than trying to bash their way through the Springbok or SA ranks?
Alec, that’s a great question because I think you’ve got to look deeper than just international representation, especially in sport. A name that springs to mind for me right now is Simon Harmer. Simon is a traditional spinner, he’s playing at Essex. Essex have just been unbeaten and won the championship. I think it was the first unbeaten run for 20 odd years and 3 or 4 games before the end of the season they had enough points to guarantee them the win in 4-day cricket here in the UK, county cricket here is massive. It’s an incredible side and 2 or 3 of the players in the team are internationals, sure, but it’s Ryan ten Doeschate and Simon Harmer. Simon Harmer is the leading wicket taker and this is a guy who was battling to make it into the SA team as a spinner because he was in that little marginal area where he was probably competing with 3 or 4 players of colour.
Simon has never moaned about it. He’s just carried on and he’s got on with his business. He’s playing professionally over here. He wants to finish his degree and as a leader in the team, I’ve had the privilege of catching up with him and he’s got a really old head on young shoulders and he sees the world as his oyster if he plays good enough cricket in this league because (1) he’ll earn enough here but (2) around the world they will notice him, and see him and he’ll play some short format T20 games, which are high paying, high impact but low intensity on the body. So, he can play for longer and after 20 years in cricket these days you should have made at least a couple of R100m, if you are a high-level SA performer because there is that kind of money out there. These guys are getting $2m, $3m, or $4m for 6 weeks in the IPL so, if you think about it, what a great opportunity they must earn. Hopefully for me they spend the money wisely and then look after it. But you’re right, there are people like that going and moving out.
What’s happening with him? Is he likely to play for SA or qualify for England?
I don’t know. He’s played some test matches for SA. I think that there are a couple of players over here who’ve taken the Kolpak decision. Now, Kolpak was very interesting. It was a German handball player who, just like an accountant moving countries, moved to play handball in a different league but was stopped from playing it in a domestic league in Europe. Then he took them to the European Court of Appeals and said, ‘well, if I was an accountant or a doctor I would be allowed to ply my trade in another country and prove them wrong.’ So now what’s happened is the Kolpak case – in cricket you’ll get, I think it’s a player per team or 2 players per team and then you can declare that you are not going to make yourself available for your international team and then you compete as a Kolpak International. So, you ringfence yourself for that team and for that series. They get higher paid because they’re always available for the team, and they show incredible focus then to making that work for them.
There’s a couple of players who do it, some Zimbabweans and Southern Africans are the most common and they play over here and for a lot of guys, it’s a life decision. I think what they’re going to do is compete under that and then as those contracts run out and they come to renegotiation time, you can also then resign with the same team but maybe not under Kolpak if you wanted to play some test matches, etc. So, I think national team’s performance will affect which players make those kinds of decisions and which don’t. Think about it, if you’re a young rugby or cricket player and the Springboks or the Proteas are not doing that well and you haven’t got a test match cap, which would limit you then for qualification. Would you throw your hat into the ring and see if you could qualify for somewhere else? I’m incredibly lucky, I played for the Springboks and the Springboks were in a high performing environment, which was where I played. But I can imagine if the Springboks were a poor team, I’m not sure that I would want to play for the Springboks…
Get beaten 57 – 0?
Well, exactly case and point, and Namibia or Zim. I was born in Zimbabwe. Would I want to go and play rugby for Zimbabwe when SA would definitely have beaten them 100 – 0? No, I would have wanted to play for SA so, it’s an easy one but qualification makes it difficult so, you’ve got to make big decisions.
Bob, it’s a very interesting contrast between 2 members of the mean machine, the old Transvaal cricket team as they were, Raymond Jennings, his son is playing for England now.
Keaton, yes.
Whereas Jimmy Cook, his son is playing for SA. Do you think there was much of an impact in the families, where the one family said, ‘no, go and look internationally?’ Or was it to do with the boys themselves? Just thinking from a sporting background, how are those decisions made?
It’s such a tough one. I can remember, and I’ll tell you where I was, I was in Kommetjie, I was 19 years old and I had just met Robbie Fleck and his parents had a house in Kommetjie on the beach, a beautiful house. I was sitting on a telephone call from overseas with the London Irish Football Club because they had found out that I had played for SA under 19 but I also qualified for Ireland and had made me a relatively big offer and rugby wasn’t even fully professional yet, but they said, ‘come and join the academy.’ I didn’t, at that stage, and I was very lucky that I didn’t because I carried on and I played for Western Province shortly after that and then into the Springboks.
But at 19 that’s a big decision.
Well, that’s the thing. I didn’t really have…and I lost my dad last year. We came from where rugby, my dad was at 40 years old, the outside centre for the Hillcrest Villagers Vets Team, and rugby was just something you did. He was the doctor in the village and played a couple of games a year and I went to watch it and rugby wasn’t even an option as a vocation. But suddenly 2 or 3 years later, or 5 or 10 years later, his son – he was 50 and his son was now choosing between a professional, international career. He didn’t have a frame of reference so, I think we bumped and wobbled our way through it. I still talk about it, I was just incredibly lucky. I had a virtuous circle of quality people from Alan Solomon, who I met as a very young player at Stellenbosch University. He wasn’t even a coach at Stellenbosch, he was at UCT, but he coached the Western Province seven-a-side team. I just really fell in love with his passion for the game and his brain. He was a senior partner at Sonnenberg Hoffmann & Galombik, and took a sabbatical.
A big legal firm that.
Exactly, and he took a sabbatical to coach rugby so, this is the guy who I wanted to work with and he helped me with some of those decisions. Then I met Nick Mallett, I mean these were worldly people who helped me but I still went through a lot of wobbly decisions. Whenever I see these youngsters now I try and impart a little bit of that wisdom. Just take stock, get some wise-heads around you, even just take 5 people who have been through this, out for dinner and say, ‘guys, what do you think I should do?’ Because these are huge decisions.
And the decision would be more difficult today.
Of course.
But back then the Springboks were top of the world or at least very close to being top of the world. At the moment there’s all kinds of pressures that would come on to someone from your background.
Yes, well think about this, and I would never have done this 10 years ago but it’s basically a maths decision. What do you need to survive for the rest of your life? Can you do that without a degree?
Because you play rugby – it’s hard to get a degree?
Yes, it’s incredibly hard to get a degree. The guys are under such intense training regimes, there’s time away. The universities are not necessarily geared to making these guys pass all of their… Although, I think Francois Pienaar has done a good job where he’s used the varsities as the teams, in the Varsity Cup and I think the teams get more dispensation to pick guys, as long as they are passing their degree. But in the American leagues they put huge pressure on that and you can’t play for the college if you’re not passing but then a lot of the guys just drop out and go to the NBA but 3 years after the NBA they’re bankrupt. Let’s go back to those factors so, can I do this without a degree? Probably not but if I’m going to I need to earn a lot of money. How much money can I earn? What is the Rand/Pound rate? What is my global big Mac Index say that I’m going to need to earn? A couple of years ago it was in my 15-year rugby career. It might now be your 9-year rugby career or your 8-year rugby career. Would you rather earn €400,000 or R400,000? It’s a very easy sum.
It’s a bit like the point you made earlier about the whole Kolpak story. If I was an accountant, would I, as an accountant practice here, or somewhere else where I would perhaps be more financially stable? A sportsman, and particularly in rugby, you look again, as an outsider and having a niece who’s a physio, and what she tells me what your bodies go through when you’re playing in those games – it’s surprising that you had a 15-year career.
Exactly so, you add those factors into this decision. Then you’ve also got the freak nature of injuries and some guys are lucky, and some are not lucky. You might play under a coach who doesn’t like you. Eddie Jones basically, disagreed with Warren Gatland not taking Dylan Hartley, who’s the captain of England, on a Lions tour. Now, sure on the one side, he’s disappointed and he didn’t play for the Lions on that trip, etc, but the Lions also made £275,000 for 7 weeks of work. Is that a nice little nest egg for anyone? I think we could all agree that it is.
Especially when you convert it into Rands.
Exactly so, there’s lots of factors but I think, ‘yes, there are players going overseas but there are people going overseas.’ And some of it is back to the other factors happening in our beautiful but flawed democracy that we talk about every week.
Yes, we keep hoping that there’s going to be a big change in December and actually, there is another way. Somebody else who I met recently from the sporting world, Tich Smith, I don’t know if you know him.
I know Tich very well, yes.
Well, isn’t that an amazing story? When I was growing up Tich was a wonderful wicketkeeper and batsman for our home Province, what was then called Natal and his career went completely off the rails. He said that he became addicted to booze and gambling and he was in the gutter, this is what he says, very publicly now. He found his way through a spiritual experience and is making an unbelievable contribution to SA through LIV Village. Have you been to LIV Villages, have you had a chance to have seen that?
I’ve had one visit to one outside of Durban and I haven’t spent enough time on it but we’ve been close to it because he’s obviously been very linked to the SA Golf Day. Tich was a big presence when Ernie Els, and Ernie had a nice link through obviously being an international sportsman, but to fundraising for different types of causes as well. So, at Ernie Els’ Corporate Golf Days, down at Fancourt in Knysna and seeing the presentations and the difference they make to so many lives.
My point on this is that in SA one of the big flawed issues is BEE legislation as it is at the moment, where there’s an enormous amount of fronting that’s going on and empowerment has turned into enrichment for the politically connected few. Now, everybody knows and that’s the reality of it but Tich Smith’s operation, which is owned by the Widows and Orphans is also a BEE partner in potential, and in fact, DB Schenker, the second biggest international courier company have made them, the LIV Villages their BEE partner. Now, think to yourself if in 1994, instead of corporate SA embracing a whole bunch of human beings that they made into kazillionaires, if they had just put their money into something like the LIV Villages or real, authentic, on the ground empowerment. I’m hoping that peoples eyes get opened to the benefits that someone like Tich Smith and what he and Joan, his wife, have put together there and they will be opening another village in the not too distant future in the Western Cape, and then another one in Gauteng. So, hopefully and Zweli Mkhize, by the way, was very instrumental in getting them off the ground when he was KZN Premier. If he becomes the ANC President and presumably, the president of the country – what an impact that would make? Anyway, I’ve just become a Zweli Mkhize fan because of Tich Smith, who I was a fan of from schooldays.
Fantastic.
It’s interesting the way it develops but there’s lots of other things going on in cricket at the moment.
Absolutely, in fact, I was lucky enough this morning, I’ve had a couple of conference calls so, I’ve been using home as an office and I could put on the TV in the background. Although it was silent so I didn’t listen to the tones of the SA commentators. I was watching the, let’s call it the Keshav Maharaj and Kagiso Rabada show because they absolutely desolated Bangladesh this morning. I think 7 odd wickets for about 27 runs. It was absolutely outstanding. A lovely display of bowling for both of them. One a really fast and accurate spell from Kagiso Rabada, who has just turned into the most unbelievable Protea imaginable. Especially, when poor old Morné Morkel had a side strain yesterday so, he’s not able to bowl at all and he wasn’t going to take any further part in the match. Then Keshav Maharaj was spinning up a storm from the other side and I think he got a fifer and Rabada got a fifer as well. They beat Bangladesh by 333 runs and Bangladesh of late are the giant killers. We’ve spoken about how well they’re doing in climbing up the ranking so, this will be very good for the Proteas. Very good for Faf du Plessis in his captaincy role and very good for the preparation of a team that have got a tough international year ahead of them.
Was AB back?
No, AB is not playing at the moment. He starts in, I think, the India test was the one that when he made that announcement so this is all preparation time, etc, for him. I’ve seen some fielding videos and batting videos and that going around of what he’s posting out there about the hard work he’s doing so, make no mistake, he’s going to be ready when he’s back.
Then just finally, from my side, on the business front, the big news here is the continued Gupta Curse. This last week we saw Bianca Goodson, who was the CEO of Trillian. Now, that’s the company that McKinsey used, essentially, to filch money out of Eskom. We’re talking 100’s of millions of Rands that went that way. McKinsey are still brazening it out despite the fact that this lady has put chapter and verse on how McKinsey were in meetings with Eskom and how they were very much involved and very closely involved in the whole plundering of funds from a state-owned enterprise. It’s interesting to see that in the world of big business sometimes the responsibility takes a little while to be accepted. Whereas in sport, it’s live, you’re in the public eye. If you drop the ball with the try-line in front of you or if you do a foul or a bad tackle on someone, you immediately become a villain. It seems in business there are other ways of handling these things.
Yes, I think sometimes it’s the spin as well. I was very interested because Michael Cheika, the Wallabies coach, opened up and he’s a very brash character. He’s a very successful man financially and in business, and he’s a no-nonsense customer. A lot of people, he rubs up the wrong way, and he was known as an absolute, let’s say, ‘violently otherwise person,’ to play club rugby against. You just didn’t want to get onto the wrong side of him because he would find a way to get you back, and he looks like the kind of character you wouldn’t want to meet in a dark alley but a very successful rugby coach. On the weekend Dillyn Leyds, the free-running SA back got tackled and it was by Israel Folau, who’s an outstanding individual who’s played AFL, and NRL, and now Rugby Union as well as at international level. It was a high tackle so, he grabbed the collar and as the collar flicked out, Dillyn Leyds has got quite longish hair. It’s lovely for South Africans to have these free running spirits type thing, which I’m enjoying so, we need to be more accepting and open of that. But you could definitely see he then had Dillyn Leyds by the hair and he was dragging him out and there’s been a couple of slow-mo’s showing that that’s what happened and Cheika said, in his best Australian accent, ‘mate, watch the video, it’s his collar. It’s not his hair, you’re an idiot, don’t ask me about this. I’m not talking about this ever again.’ Everybody on social media has gone out and they’ve done these arrows saying, ‘collar – hair.’ He very clearly grabbed him by the hair. So, when you say, you can do a bad tackle and then suddenly you’re in the spotlight – I think they are a little bit and it will be something discussed this week, no doubt.
Bob, what else are you going to be busy with this week?
Well, I actually wanted to mention…I finished off last week and in fact, this week, workwise, we’re going into a due diligence of a very interesting business but I was doing a personal due diligence on a 7s tournament. In Munich, the Oktoberfest, I had the great privilege of meeting a gentleman by the name of Mathias Entenmann and he’s a senior partner at Boston Consulting Group, Digital Ventures. He was a PayPal CEO for Europe so, he’s an incredibly successful guy but just a passionate rugby player.
A German?
A German yes, he’s played rugby for Namibia, I think in the old days, where if you turned up and got picked you could play so, obviously Namibia was a German colony originally. He’s played rugby all over SA as well, and he’s played for Germany.
Who does Germany play against?
Well, that’s the thing. So, he had this real passion of getting Germany, who’ve played in the European Leagues. They’ve played a couple of 7s World Cups, etc. And very interestingly, a fact I learnt on the weekend, Germany had a positive pre-war rugby score line against France. So, Germany were a bigger force in world rugby than France were up until the war so, we don’t even know these historical facts about it but Mathias and a group of mates, very hard working, very passionate guys, put together a bid to get the World Series of 7s started in Munich. This year it’s not part of the World Series but it was a mid-year festival of rugby, if you want, and it coincides with the Oktoberfest in Munich, which is just an incredible spectacle. It was 600 – 700 thousand people in one area at any one time. I went into a beer tent, we go to a beer tent next to a Springbok rugby match, and there’s 500 people and it looks packed. I went into a beer tent with 11 thousand people in it and all eating, drinking and merrily going on their way – no negativity. There was lots of dancing, laughing, and singing. Everything finishes at 22h00.
So, did you have your lederhosen on?
I had my lederhosen. I was in the moment and it was incredible. The tournament itself was played at the Olympic Stadium in Munich which has wonderful history and a World Cup winning stadium for Germany. It went off very well. I was just really pleased for them. The world rugby guys all loved it. I think there’s a few boxes they still need to tick to be part of the World Series going forward, but there will be a bit of a rejig there so, good luck to them and I hope it goes incredibly well. SA lost to Fiji in the semi-finals and Australia went onto win the tournament. They knocked over Fiji in the finals. It’s a sanctioned but not points for the series so, SA haven’t started poorly at all, in fact, done well because they had a very young team. This team is part of the greater 7s squad and I think Paul Delport is the head coach of this one but the assistant coach in the other team so, a coach by the same sort of management team and really good for SA sport to have them doing so well.
Now, you and Stefan did talk a little bit about the World Cup in 2023. The South African’s were in town led by Cyril Ramaphosa a week ago. I thought it was a slam-dunk. You would have thought that it’s about time there was another tournament in SA, after the last one in 1995. But you’re suggesting that it’s not cut and dry by any means.
No, it’s not cut and dry. I had a chat to some of the guys at World Rugby. Mark Egan was there and he heads up tournaments. He said, ‘Bob, I can just tell you SA did a fantastic bid, a brilliant bid.’ Cyril Ramaphosa was amazing. Francois Pienaar did a good job. John Smit did a good job so, well done to all of them because it’s great that they presented well. They had a very compelling bid. SA obviously, is World Cup winners but also previous hosts. It can tick a lot of boxes for world rugby but then he also mentioned that they’ve been really pleased with where SA rugby are in terms of the reporting, what they’re doing, because you’ve all got to be member nations of World Rugby and it’s quite a well-run organisation but you have to comply. So, SA’s compliance is top notch, well done to them.
The thing is  Ireland’s bid was also good, and France’s bid was also good. I did press him a little bit on how the process goes. The process, as I understand it now, moves, the committee judging the bids will make a recommendation to the World Rugby Board. That happens on the 15th, and then a month later, on the 15th November, the World Rugby Board will then announce whether they’re going with the recommendation or whether they change it. You do remember with football they made a double announcement. It was Qatar and Russia at the same time so, it just tweaked my curiosity there that he would say something like that. So, it might mean to appease a South Africa who didn’t win it this time. They might say, ‘well it’s Ireland now and then SA,’ or, ‘it’s SA and then Ireland,’ and so on and so forth.
Unfortunately for us Japan is 2019, 2 years away, and World Rugby gave them a little bit of a slap on the wrists and said, ‘we’re not quite sure you’re at the level that you need to be.’ I think that’s taken a bit of the focus of the World Rugby guys away and they just really want to make sure that if Japan is not quite what England was that the next one comes along and is absolutely outstanding so, they’re definitely going to tighten the screws on Japan but it might be that they then believe that Ireland is ready and because it’s not going through the same political strife that we have etc. I hope those factors don’t come into play and I hope we win it but if not, I do expect an announcement shortly that says, we’re going to either have this one or one soon after so, holding thumbs and well done to the guys who presented and particular, the ex-players and the ex-captains of that team who gave their time to be part of it.
Well Bob, than you. That’s episode 3. It was good to have Stefan Terblanche joining us as well and thanks for all your useful insights, as always. We’ll be back again in a weeks time.
I look forward to it. Thanks, Alec.
