Stephen Covey: Why trust is the new must – tips on how to start building it

Being reliable is the first step to friendship. Creating trust has the power to change your world. In this interview with Biznews.com‘s Alec Hogg, leadership teacher Stephen Covey shares the ideas behind his bestselling book The Speed of Trust – and what it was like growing up with his famous “Seven Habits” father with whom he shares a name. Covey says the value of trust is quantifiable, making it a powerful differentiator for businesses struggling to compete in a low trust world where a high percentage of the workforce is disengaged.

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Well, on the line now from the US is Stephen Covey, not the late Stephen Covey but his son. Stephen, I suppose having a famous father like yours, you always were compared with him. Did you grow up in a household where those ā€˜Seven Habitsā€™ were in fact, used?Ā 

Hi, Alec, absolutely we did and in fact, as kids like to say that we were the original guinea pigs for the ā€˜Seven Habitsā€™ as my dad tried to formulate these and create these. He always applied what he taught in business and organisational settings ā€“ he always applied it to his personal life, into his family life, and so we did grow up hearing ā€˜be proactiveā€™ and ā€˜begin with end in mindā€™ and seek first to understand and then be understoodā€™. Each of the ā€˜Seven Habitsā€™ was really how my dad operated, not only as a teacher and a leader but also especially as a parent. We grew up on that language and I didnā€™t realise how much until later, when I took a class from my father the last year that he taught at the university and everything was just second nature to me. I realised I had grown up with it my entire life. It was a big part of how he operated. There was really no de-compartmentalisation from my father. He was the same person in public, as he was in private.

How many of you are there, how many brothers and sisters?

We came from a large family, thereā€™s nine of us in total.

How many of them have joined you in working for the family business?

Well six of us are involved, they are either involved or have been involved in significant ways, in some way, shape, or form.

How long ago is it since your father passed on?

He passed away four years ago, in July, so just over four years.

Iā€™ve no doubt you meet lots of people who will tell you that heā€™s changed their lives. Is that part of your process into the future to maybe keep his learning or keep his work going?Ā 

I think so Alec and I certainly hope so. Maybe one of the most meaningful things for me is when I do the work that I do, in different parts of the world. Itā€™s quite common or, as Iā€™m going to say frequent that people will come up to me and express gratitude to me for my father, for how he might have impacted them, either through his teachings or his writings. Often at times through personal interaction or personal experience, and Iā€™ll never get used to it. Iā€™m grateful for every one of those interactions that I have when I hear about how my fatherā€™s work has impacted them. It gives me a great sense of both legacies to follow but also a sense of stewardship, to be responsible to try being good and true to his name and the work that heā€™s done. I do see that as an ongoing stewardship and legacy that I have a partial responsibility for, absolutely.

Read also:Ā Alec Hogg: My five life-changing books

Did you work together for long?

We did. Whatā€™s interesting Alec, is that for the first many years I worked with my father and I was on the business side entirely, and my father was a writer and a teacher, and I tried to help organise a business around it to take that throughout the world, so we were a complimentary team. He wrote it down and I organised it and tried to make a business of it. It was in the last maybe eight years of my dadā€™s life that my role shifted, when I started to work on ā€˜The Speed of Trustā€™ and then I published a book. Then I started to do some of the things that my dad started to do and again, I kind of got out of the management side and I startedĀ doing the type of work my father was doing, I was writing and teaching. Maybe some of the highlights of my life were when my father and I actually did some programs together, where we were the two speakers together, on a program.

The entire day might have been organised around us. My father would teach ā€˜Seven Habitsā€™ in the morning and I might teach ā€˜Speed of Trustā€™ in the afternoon, or vice versa. We would have some fun and weā€™d be on the stage together. Weā€™d kind of give and take a little bit with each other. Heā€™d tell the Green and Clean story from Seven Habits about me trying to learn how to take care of the yard. I would tell funny stories about my dad. Those are my most, fond memories of working with my father, it was the time we were sharing the stage, talking about these principles and then having some fun with some of our stories that we would tell. Weā€™d support what we were talking about but in a fun way with each other, so thatā€™s maybe my fondest memory.

Itā€™s quite often people go to conferences and get inspired and then forget about it all when they leave. Whatā€™s different about the Covey Program that actually does change lives?

Yes, I think itā€™s this Alec, and that it was really a decision my father made a long time ago that itā€™s one thing to give a presentation, do a conference, do training, and give a presentation. Thatā€™s impactful and thatā€™s a nice thing. Itā€™s a good thing and itā€™s important but if thatā€™s all you do, then your impact will be on a few. There will be a few people that can take that and really run with it and make changes and the like but most won’t, if thatā€™s all they had was that nice conference. Theyā€™ll remember it nicely but it wonā€™t impact their life and it wonā€™t change their world.

What my father decided was that we would grow the organisation in a team that could then also help people implement, apply, and the idea is the teachings, so that it became not just ideas but also implementation and application of the idea, and that was the key learning. It was to make this a process and not an event. An event is a conference, which is important. A good process has events in it, but a process is the broader implementation, application, how you would go about learning this, applying this, implementing this, moving these ideas into your systems and structures, so thatā€™s what weā€™ve done, is weā€™ve built an organisation and we have it right there in South Africa. The Stephen Covey, South Africa office, our on-the-ground, local team that helps leaders and organisations implement and apply the principles.

We both teach it and we do the conferences and the trainings but the more important part is weā€™ve developed a methodology, a framework, a language, and a process to get really good and implementing the ideas and to have this be something thatā€™s more than just a nice seminar. Thatā€™s a huge differentiator that without that your impact will be at a surface level. Again, you will have some impact on some people but to really, change a team or a culture, youā€™ve got to get into the implementation and the application and the only way to do that is through a process and not just in the event.

Thatā€™s probably our distinguishing feature and we do that all around the world. We do it in South Africa, with the Covey South African office and we do it elsewhere. I think itā€™s a differentiator but itā€™s also a game changer.

Youā€™ve also been involved in South Africa for many years, Colin Hall a well-known businessman gave it all up and came to work on these Covey-type principles many years ago. I guess Colin is getting on now. Is he still involved with you?

Heā€™s not directly involved in running anything but heā€™s still connected with us and he loves the principles. He was a great example of it, and like you say, because of his credibility and reputation as such a prominent businessperson. Him, utilising these principles and becoming not just a practitioner of it but also a champion, an advocate, a teacher of it ā€“ it was a huge difference maker for us because it brought such a credibility to this approach. He, in many ways, legitimised it and validated it, so heā€™s an amazing person, and we still are connected. Heā€™s just not involved in day-to-day things, like he had been at one time.

Thatā€™s what I mean by having a local presence. Here we are, a global company, operating in over 140 countries around the world but the key to that is that we donā€™t try to do that out of the United States. We try to, instead find partners that then become our team and represent this approach, this methodology in different parts of the world. Colin Hall was where we began and today we continue that on with our friend with Covey, our South African team. Marlinie Ramsamy is our CEO and does an amazing job in building our team and doing what weā€™re able to do. similar to what Colin did in the early days.

Stephen getting onto your book that you wrote, which has also sold more than a million copies, thatā€™s an incredible achievement. Particularly I suppose in that you didnā€™t piggyback off your fatherā€™s direct, ā€˜Seven Habitsā€™ but went in your own direction and talked about trust. Now, thatā€™s a huge subject (and of great priority) in the world right now but what drew you to that area?

I started the ā€˜high cost of low trustā€™. I started everywhere. I remember when we merged our company, Covey Substantive with Franklin Quest. Weā€™d been arched competitors. We formed Franklin Covey from that merger. Weā€™d been arched competitors before and we were both two good companies, good people, with good values, coming together. But people didnā€™t trust each other because of the fact that we had been competitive and coming at it from different angles and so while I had seen the advantages of high trust, I suddenly also saw the high cost of low trust.

Then we made conscious, deliberate efforts to get to build and rebuild the trust and to get good at this and I saw that we could do that. We could actually make progress. It didnā€™t have to be what it was. We could move to the level of trust, consciously and deliberately ā€“ you could build trust on purpose and that was a ā€˜ah-ahā€™ insight that trust matters. Thereā€™s a high cost to low trust and thereā€™s a great return to high trust that you can measure it. Itā€™s classed as a perception and you can measure perception and then most importantly that you can move it. That you can actually, intentionally build trust and get good at this. That thereā€™s a framework, a language, a process of how you do that, so all this was very exciting to me that came out of my own practice and my own experience. Then I started to see it with other organisations, what I call the ā€˜economics of trust in actionā€™. Whenever trust went down the speed went down with it and the cost went up. That was what I called a low trust tax and it was very real.

The contrast was equally real. When the trust went up in a relationship, on a team, in a culture or in a company, when the trust went up the speed would go up with it. Everything happened faster and the cost would come down and the cost was less, but that was a high trust dividend, and that was playing out everywhere. Once I saw that I got excited by this and I realised that most of the conversation on trust, up to that point, seemed to be either too soft, kind of this nice, touchy feely, nice to have, social virtue or too academic, where it wasnā€™t practical and tangible enough. I saw ā€˜wow trust is not soft, warm, and fuzzyā€™. It is really, hard edge, and itā€™s economic. Whereas economics to trust is affecting the speed which we can move the costs of everything. I call that the speed of trust. It can be the economics of trust. Dividends flow from having trust, and the speed is the symbol of it.

It is quantifiable.

Itā€™s quantifiable and you can put a value on it. You can tie it to so many different things. I just started a Watson Wyatt study showed that high trust organisations outperform low trust organisations by 286%, in total return to shareholders. As stock price plus dividends ā€“ nearly three times higher. Why canā€™t they get far greater speed and far lower cost and ultimately, you can monetize it. The better ways you can connect trust to engagement, to collaboration, to partnering, and to teaming and to retention of people, so you can tie it to a lot of different things. Obviously, thereā€™s many factors tied to all these things but trust is clearly a major contributor and participant in every, economical financial dimension and thereā€™s a lot of hard data that shows that.

Iā€™m just wondering on this because thereā€™s a lot of conversation nowadays about engagement and that 85% of employers are disengaged. I guess theyā€™re also suffering from pretty, low trust. How do you start addressing that?

Yes, and youā€™ve identified a key issue Alec cause whatā€™s interesting is most people are becoming aware of and focussing on engagement, which is a great thing. The heart of engagement is trust. Itā€™s very difficult to engage with people without trust. With trust, itā€™s the key lever or driver of engagement. You still have to do other things but the trust is foundational to it. As we worked with companies, both in South Africa and all around the world that are focussing on moving the engagement in their company, so getting that itā€™s not 85% that are disengaged but rather a vast majority that are engaged in stead, quite an opportunity that represents. Our starting point is to say if we can start by increasing the trust inside the team, inside the organisation, and building a high trust team, a high trust culture that will be the key driver, to improving the engagement.

Now, we still have to do some other things but the foundational thing is trust and without that, no matter if we do a lot of other things. If thereā€™s distrust, weā€™re not going to engage your people, so we approach this from the inside out, and we focus on trying to build first, high trust leaders that both are credible (that is trustworthy) and that includes both character and competence. People kind of intuitively understand the characterā€™s habit but the competent is equally important to trust. Then also that are willing to appropriately, smartly extend trust, to give trust because you could have two trustworthy people working together and no trust, if neither party is willing to- appropriately and smartly extend trust/to give trust because you can have two trustworthy people working together and no trust if neither party is going to extend it to the other.

Both the trustworthiness, which I call credibility and also the extension of trust (the giving of trust) in smart ways: we try to build this trust from the inside out, starting with each leader, then a team, and then that will ripple out. We use a ripple effect ā€“ a metaphor for how you build trust from the inside out. If you can do this with an organisation/with a team, you can really have an impact on the engagement and on the ability to collaborate, partner, team, innovate, create, track and retain people, and inspire the people and ultimately, achieve better business outcomes. Trust is effecting all these things in very real and significant ways and for many people, they just donā€™t see it. Trying to help them see that the impact of trust is important but I think more importantly is to show that thereā€™s a methodology.

A process, a framework, and a language that you can utilise to intentionally go about helping leaders, teams, and organisations build a high trust culture. That has a huge impact on everything else that weā€™re trying to do.

It certainly does and it makes a lot of sense but I guess the ripples go even deeper than that when you consider trusting countries ā€“ your own country going into an election now, where many people donā€™t trust either of the candidates. I think the latest research said that over 50% of Americans distrust both of the Presidential candidates. That smacks of a crisis.

It absolutely does because trust is really foundational to any institution (by which I mean government, business, NGO, or media) but also any organisation, any team, any relationship, and any person and when there is no trust, you pay a tax. Everything costs you more and you also see less creativity and innovation. People are afraid to take a risk and make a mistake. You see politics creep in everywhere and we are seeing that. Weā€™re seeing that in the United States. Weā€™re seeing that in many countries all around the world where there is lower trust and trust is going down. Iā€™d like to make the point that thatā€™s not just a social issue. Thatā€™s an economic issue. It affects people in profound ways and thereā€™s a lot of data and studies that show that high trust societies have better economic output than low trust societies. You would kind of expect that but the data bears it out. Zack and NACā€™s study of 41 nations shows that in every case, the nations with the higher trust had better economic performance. The economics play out at a national level/country level and also at an organisational level and a leader level. Really, itā€™s inside out and its outside in. Itā€™s happening everywhere and we are increasingly operating in a world in which trust is going down and I do call it ā€˜a crisis of trustā€™. Iā€™m trying to point out that there is economics to that. It matters, not just for social reasons but for financial reasons. Also, the interesting thing Alec, is that at the same time that thereā€™s a crisis of trust, thereā€™s also simultaneously (and somewhat paradoxically) a renaissance of trust, where people are starting to recognise that this matters, that we should be focused on this, that we should be paying attention to this, and that thereā€™s a better way to lead and operate. Where trust is becoming increasingly seen as a currency of how we lead and operateā€¦ For any leader that has thatā€¦what an advantage for any team or organisation that has that. What an advantage, especially in the low trust world. Youā€™re right. At a macro level, this is a major issue ā€“ almost everywhere in the world. It certainly is in politics and I think that would probably be true in most countries and in many other institutions on the outside level of the waves ā€“ the ripple effect – Ā but itā€™s also very true as you move inside on organisations and teams in relationships and even in individual leaders. Weā€™ve got to approach this both from the outside in, in terms of assessing and diagnosing whatā€™s going on but the way weā€™ll solve it is inside out ā€“ starting with each leader/each person looking into the mirror.

Not everybody is going to be able to come to your event in South Africa in October and weā€™ll talk more about that in a moment. Not everybody has read your book but if you can just pass on some suggestions such as trust between husband and wife and co-workers, etcetera. Does it all start with listening?

I think listening is an extraordinary starting point. I would agree that to listen to another person where you truly understand (so itā€™s not just going through the motions of the act of listening), and where youā€™re becoming empathic in your listening, where the listening leads towards understanding. A test of that understanding is not when you tell the person, ā€œI understand you.ā€ Itā€™s when they tell you, ā€œI feel understood. Thank you for listening.ā€ Thatā€™s the differentiator. In the Speed of Trust work I have these behaviours where I identify the highest leverage behaviours that help people grow trust. There are 13 of them and 13ā€™s a lot but its calmed down away from hundreds. Certain behaviours are highly leveraged and one of the most prominent of them, which is the first of what I call ā€˜the combined character and competence behavioursā€™ is ā€˜listen firstā€™.

Itā€™s exactly that. If we start the idea, we can really accelerate the building of trust. If I were just going to step back a little bit more broadly speaking, I would say, ā€œWhere do we start with this?ā€ The best way to start with trust is to look in the mirror and start with ourselves because very easily, with trust, to look at everybody else and say, ā€œThey need this. I hope theyā€™re reading Stephenā€™s bookā€ or ā€œI hope they go to that seminar because they need itā€™ā€¦ That thinking is outside in. The way weā€™re going to take on our trust challenges and opportunities is to go inside out, look in the mirror, and start with ourselves. Do I trust myself? Do I give my team, a leader they can trust? Do I give to my spouse, a spouse they can trust? Do I give to my kids, a parent they can trust? Whatever the context might be, inside out is a far better approach and yet, human nature tends to be outside in where we look at everybody else.

Our main thing is that we look in the mirror. We start with ourselves. I like the metaphor. It comes from the airline industry where, when you get on an airplane they always show a safety video everywhere in the world. In that video, at some point it says ā€˜if you lose cabin pressure, oxygen masks will fall downā€™ and then it says ā€˜put your own mask on first before helping othersā€™. I think itā€™s a good metaphor for trust. Yes, others need this help but the best way we will get them the helpā€¦ Letā€™s lead out with this. Letā€™s model this. Letā€™s start with this. Letā€™s put our own mask on first and then we can help others. ā€˜Put your own mask on firstā€™ means I focus on my trustworthiness/credibility and then I lead out and I behave in ways that build the trust. That lead behaviour (I would say youā€™ve identified that) is ā€˜listen fistā€™. My father in ā€˜Seven Habitsā€™ called it ā€˜seek first to understand, and then to be understood. If you lead out with that, that has such a profound impact on people. When they feel understood, theyā€™re now far more open to your influence and youā€™ve built trust in a far different way than when you lead out with the idea of ā€˜Iā€™m going to direct, control, and commandā€™ versus understanding so itā€™s a better approach.

Stephen, youā€™re going to South Africa in October. No doubt, itā€™s not the first time. What is the purpose of this visit?

I am coming and doing a major event that is going to be on the Speed of Trust at the Gallagher Convention Centre on October 26tth. Weā€™re inviting people, leaders, teams, and organisations from anywhere in South Africa to attend. In that even, itā€™s going to be on the Speed of Trust ā€“ leading at the Speed of Trust and building high trust organisations and high trust cultures. What Iā€™m going to try to do is really three things. First, Iā€™m going to make the business case for trust. Iā€™m going to show you how trust is not just a ā€˜nice to haveā€™ social virtue but in fact, itā€™s a hard-edged economic driver that effects the speed at which we can move and the cost of everything. Iā€™m going to make a compelling business case for trust.

The second thing Iā€™m going to do is Iā€™m going to make a leadership case for trust. Iā€™m going to show how trust is really the number one competency of leadership, needed today ā€“ more than any other. Thatā€™s a very bold statement to make because thereā€™s a lot of important leadership competencies to have. I know that and I think our listeners know that, and our attendees would know that. Iā€™m going to show how out of all those competencies, the ability to create trust is the most significant. Why? Well, you already identified one of the reasons, Alec. Weā€™re operating in an increasingly low-trust world. If you have a leader whoā€™s ready to create trust in a world of declining trustā€¦what an advantage that is. What an asset that is for you, for your team, and for your organisation to be high trust in a world thatā€™s lackingĀ in trust. The second reason why trust is so vital for any leader is because itā€™s so highly leveraged. Trust is the one thing that changes everything and if we get good at trust, it can help make us better at everything else that we need to do. People are ready to collaborate when thereā€™s trust. The ability to engage people goes up with thereā€™s trust. Our ability to attract and maintain people goes up. Our ability to create and innovate goes up with trust and thereā€™s hard data on every one of these points. Our ability to execute our strategy goes up with trust. Our ability to lead change goes up when thereā€™s trust. Almost anything that weā€™re trying to do today in organisations in South Africa or globally; you can do better if you start with trust. Trust is a huge performance multiplier that makes you better at everything else. You still have to do other things but you can do them better and faster with a multiplier working for you instead of a divisor diminishing your work and against you. High leverage is the one thing that changes everything. Iā€™m going to call that the ā€˜leadership case for trust.ā€™

The first two big ideas are: a business case for trust that thereā€™s economics behind it and a leadership case for trust showing how this is the new currency or our global economy ā€“ the new currency of any great leader, team, and organisation. Trust. Thatā€™s kind of making the case for trust in wider matters. The most important piece will be the third big idea. That is that trust is a learnable competency. It is a skill. It is something people can learn, do, create, grow, expand, and in some cases even restore the ability to create trust. Thatā€™s why Iā€™m going to give people a methodology, a framework so that they can think about trust. A common language so that they can talk about trust. Itā€™s hard to talk about trust. Iā€™m going to give people a language to do that and then a behavioural process so that they can consciously and deliberately get good at creating their way into greater trust. Thatā€™s the ā€˜how toā€™ of how you do this.

So many people talk about trust and the fact that itā€™s important and then they say, ā€œSo youā€™ve got to build trustā€ and they never say, ā€œHereā€™s how you do it.ā€ Iā€™m going to say, ā€œHereā€™s how you do itā€ and give people that framework, that language, and that process that focuses on their credibility and their behaviour and give people a very specific, tangible, practical, and actionable thing that they can do to build that trust ā€“ starting with themselves, working from the inside out. Thatā€™s the idea. Iā€™m going to make the case for trustā€¦a business case and a leadership case and then Iā€™m going to give them a practical, tangible methodology framework with processes to actually build trust and get good at this so that they walk out and say, ā€œWell, this was the most tangible, practical thing I could do.ā€ Thatā€™s what weā€™ll do in that session.

Itā€™s open to all and weā€™re trying to appeal to people, leaders, teams, and organisations (really, everywhere in South Africa) to say that this is great way of really immersing yourself in this game, engaging in this, and seeing the power and the practicality of trust in action. Thatā€™s the idea.

Stephen Covey is the Chief Executive of Covey Leadership Institute.

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