BNC#8: Ian Cameron Q&A - Inside corruption, farm attacks and the truth behind police power

Behind the headlines lies a far more dangerous reality. Ian Cameron unpacks hidden corruption, failing policing systems, rising violence, and political power plays shaping South Africa today. From shocking testimony to hard truths about crime and accountability, the conversation reveals just how deep the crisis runs - and why fixing it may be harder than anyone admits..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the Q&A.Alec Hogg (00:19:39 - 00:45:49)Thank you Ian. We we've been treated to a soap opera over the last few months of the ad hoc committee. And the inquiry initiated by the Mdlanga committee. Now it's your job to take notes, to watch. You know, we can watch from time to time and pick up a little bit and have a giggle here and, get horrified or shocked.00:46:03 - 01:10:34Big thing in South Africa to get shocked by some kind of development. Can you in a nutshell, just tell us what you've seen? Clearly, it wouldn't be right for you or for us to ask you to tell us what the conclusions are. But but what have you seen in these months of commissions to two of them that we didn't know before?Ian Cameron (01:10:38 - 01:38:32)Well, firstly, I think on a lighter note, I think you're spot on with a soap opera comment. It does get quite dramatic sometimes. I think firstly, both of the initiatives have seen significant, increases or extensions, rather, for how long they can still keep going. Now, hopefully the ad hoc is almost finished, because there's a lot of other work that we also need to do.01:38:36 - 02:04:43But the long and the short of it is that the problem is far deeper than what we realised. The one hopeful thing, in my opinion, is that a lot of the so-called kingpins on or connected to so many other things, I don't think the kingpin group is actually that big. So I think this process allows us to really identify the key figures, and once you identify and remove them, it should really collapse the house of cards.02:04:47 - 02:33:32But the crisis is much bigger than what we realised. The integrity management crisis is something that I've been moaning about for a very, very long time. And every time we go more, it just seems that it actually is a deeper problem than what we realised. Alec HoggSo General Mkhwanazi did a service to the nation by expert or by standing up, even though he might have done it in a way that surprised many people. So, what did they say? Ian Cemeron 02:33:32 - 03:05:33I think that I might not necessarily, as you said, some might not always agree with exactly the way he did it, but I think he he opened a wound that desperately needs surgery, and it's forced the hand of many people to actually act. I think what's problematic about, what's happened after that is that many of the people who have been speaking or that have have had to come and testify did actually know about the problems before, but they chose to do nothing.03:05:37 - 03:25:02So, so, you know, I don't for one moment I said, now when I spoke about the head of supply chain management in the police, that investigation with the fraud and the corruption from Treasury back in those days, that's already 4 or 5 years ago, he was still allowed to become a divisional commissioner in the South African Police Service.03:25:02 - 03:45:24Never has never worn a uniform in his life. Now, suddenly he's the head of supply chain in the police. Now, I guess one could motivate you. Might not need to. I get that they want to professionalise, etcetera. The point is just he doesn't understand the policing environment and he's got a significant integrity issue, but is still allowed to come and serve the National Commission unfortunately knew this.03:45:28 - 03:47:19They chose to do nothing.Alec Hogg 03:47:23 - 04:10:46Everybody's got an opinion on Mkhwanazi. Everybody here, they've seen maybe one part and they think he's a great guy and they've heard from someone else. Now he's a crook and they heard from O'Sullivan that he's the biggest crook there is, and he leaves no prisoners. And that makes it very difficult for those of us outside to understand really what's happening.04:10:46 - 04:45:25But when we heard from Melanie Vanessa yesterday and she repeated something that she said some months ago, that in every involvement she's had with him, she has been impressed, he has come across as a person of integrity and he has come across as someone who is professional and wanting to do his job. Now, what are you going to say now is very important because I think everybody here is going to have a new opinion of maybe the most interesting person in policing at the moment.04:45:25 - 05:04:10So give us your thoughts on the general. Ian CameronSo let me give you a quick story about him. I'll be very brief. And the one day we were doing oversight at the, also unannounced oversight at K9 Unit in Durban. And, we're walking through and him and I are talking while we're walking up the stairs and he's wearing his office uniform.05:04:14 - 05:22:25And as we get to the next, the first level of the building and some of the police members set up a little private gym, they where they could train, when they have the opportunity to do so. And there's this pull up pull, and he kind of kicks it and he says, hey, this thing is loose, and we need to fix it.05:22:25 - 05:45:46And the members say, sorry, general, will you fix it? Yes. In the next moment, this guy jumps up and while he's speaking to me, he's like going up and down doing pull ups, and I'm. I'm like, what is what what what kind of general are you? We're not used to this, you know? So, he he is someone, from what I saw during the oversight that is tremendously liked by a lot of the, police members on the ground.05:45:46 - 06:09:12They respect him, the way that he speaks to them, when you visit stations, etc., even when he didn't know that we were there or listening or watching and so on, was impressive. And he is an extremely impatient man when it comes to poor, service delivery. So that's on that side. I've heard bad things.06:09:16 - 06:35:46I've heard people saying that he's done corrupt things, but no one has been able to give me evidence of this ever. So I haven't been able to fault in Quincy. I've heard the stories, and you would have seen it in the adult committee about the handbags that, allegedly were given to him and the current national commissioner at some stage, Louis Vuitton bags, etc..06:36:00 - 06:58:33Again, first of all, part of that was way before my time, but I haven't seen any evidence given to me that could, discredit him. What is problematic, though, is that a lot of the allegations that were made, we haven't seen evidence for. So, it did open up a whole can of worms for a lot of things, which is good.06:58:37 - 07:22:10But there were allegations made that we haven't seen the evidence for yet. Personally speaking, I get along with him. Well, I think he is competent. He understands the police very, very well. I think he's got a very problematic province. It's not like they have a magic cure for for crime. In fact, they have massive increases in some areas.07:22:14 - 07:43:18And I, I think that they are going to face some problems with regards to the amount of, of, alleged suspects that are being shot, there. And that's a whole other debate. This is just general commentary. But in my opinion, Alec, I haven't been able to fault him. It's only been a solid, respectful relationship.07:43:22 - 08:04:30When you call him, he always comes back to he always answers, and there's always some kind of a solution in the pipeline. Alec HoggWell, he's two for zero at this conference. Anyway. Let's talk about the commanders. You mentioned it. Would they ever be a thought of reinstating it? Ian CameronNot if the ANC is involved. And, I think it's a political threat.08:04:34 - 08:29:40That's why they don't want reservists either. And that's also why they want to disarm, lawfully own citizens. You can see that so much is just being centralized. The more power you centralise, and the more they are under threat as a government or a party that that keeps losing, the more they started centralizing not only to get their hands in coffers, but also to make sure that they can't be threatened by someone else.08:29:40 - 08:49:48So I can't see it coming back. I also don't think it's the ideal solution. It was a solution that had, some positives. But if you go look, when the when the commanders were at the strongest, we had some of the highest form murder numbers in the country ever, to date. Now, between about 1998 up until 2002, 2003, it was very high.08:50:02 - 09:10:39But again, that being said, it gave some kind of a statutory power to the community. And how wonderful would it not have been if that could just go over and they could be trained as, as reservists? I mean, I think we've got 2 or 3000 active reservists in the country at the moment. In the space of 15 years, we've lost close to 70,000 reservists.Alec Hogg 09:10:42 - 09:41:25You mentioned farm murders. You you need to give us some insight into the whole Donald Trump farm murders. Kill the boer chanting, because we see how much hot water, the ambassador got into for simply saying, I don't believe the court is right when it says kill the boer is not hate speech Ian Cameron100%. So from my side, kill the boer is hate speech is no doubt.09:41:29 - 10:06:19And, And we will we will continue to to say that, we can't allow disallow souls, because of, of just pure political correctness. Kill the boer is hate speech. It's unacceptable. It must never be allowed, to be said or sung. Regarding farm murders and the whole Trump issue, I don't think there's a genocide in the country.10:06:19 - 10:28:01I've received a lot of criticism, especially from far right side, regarding that. But that there is a significant onslaught on farmers is a fact. It's the only, I think few darker is still in years. And years ago, he say to me in it's the only profession that is sung about killing that is praised when they're all killed on social media.10:28:05 - 10:55:09It's the only, profession that is literally politically targeted and way it is okay to celebrate if a farmer is murdered. You can imagine if we suddenly have, people saying that they should kill doctors in South Africa. Doctors would be up in arms. But when it's a farmer, it gets disguised under the so-called struggle chant. It's just purely unacceptable.10:55:13 - 11:25:18So I don't always agree with some of the rhetoric. With regards to to farm attacks, there has been a slight decrease over time. The numbers have have stabilised. In some areas. But we do see flare ups. Just this past week in Lamberts Bay, a farmer was extremely hurt. They stabbed him numerous times. He had skull fractures, etc. after confronting, cattle or stock feeds on his, on his farm.11:25:22 - 11:54:16And again, the cruelty and the torture that often goes along with it is something we don't see in any other crime. The only place that I have personally been exposed to extreme violence, where we see that some of the so-called techniques or used or intimidation crimes by gangs in parts of the Cape Flats, where they would say, for example, a boy didn't want to join the gang, they'd set him on fire, or they would, you know, cut his hands or something like that.11:54:16 - 12:21:47So, so those types of things, I know it's graphic, sorry, but those things do happen. But not nearly on the scale of the cruelty that we often see with farm attacks. Alec HoggSo why is there so much resistance to making it a priority crime? Ian CameronI think it just doesn't suit the political narrative. It's it's that simple. And it's those who make the most noise, in the political space, that, that, that push back on that.12:22:01 - 12:54:22I must say that internally, when you speak to SAPs senior commanders about form attacks, there's no doubt that they recognise the issue. I've never in the last ten years had a discussion with a professional police member, who denied there being an issue with rural safety. It usually is political of nature. And then the one thing that I think is also important, is that some people choose what they read.12:54:24 - 13:13:21You know, how many times I've shared information about a farm attack and someone would say, you're only talking about the whites, that are being attacked. And I'm like, dude. The farmer was black. I didn't say his race. And in my personal opinion, it's irrelevant. The day that they pour boiling water over someone because they want access to his safe.13:13:25 - 13:40:27I don't care what race you are. It's absolutely horrific that that should happen to anyone. Can never be okay. So there's this race obsession, and the perception is often created that when someone is attacked, it must be a white former, which is also not always accurate. Alec HoggYou spoke about media smear campaigns, but I ask you about Paul O' Sullivan. Does he deserve the smear campaign that he's getting at the moment?Ian Cameron 13:40:31 - 14:06:19So I don't like the way that Paul does things. Sometimes I think, the way and I'll say it openly, what happened with Sarah Jane Trent at the at the ad hoc committee, and my opinion was..Alec HoggWhat happened with her ?Ian CameronShe I think she was humiliated by some of the members. And I don't know why it was allowed, but in my opinion, someone like that should have had this is just a personal opinion.14:06:19 - 14:31:28Should have had some kind of support from him. Because, you know, she did a lot of the so-called dirty work, the easy admin work to go and open a case, etcetera. And now she's being, really humiliated and hurt in the in the process. It was really bad to see, the level of what, what I believe is, is post-traumatic stress that that she admitted to having in front of the committee.14:31:28 - 14:50:02I wouldn't be saying a public like this if she hadn't. And, and I think it was it was extremely cruel. So I don't like the way that Paul does things. I think that he has done good things in the past. But at the same time, it does feel to me that it wasn't necessarily always an objective approach.14:50:02 - 15:11:38It does suit a specific, agenda or a narrative. I think one of the negative things that Paul did is after Mkhwanazi's press conference, he was one of the first people to go off in the media. Instead of just watching and checking the landscape first. It sometimes is important to just stand back and just just see what's happening and get your facts straight.15:11:38 - 15:31:22Because he came up for General Sibiya immediately. I mean, Sibiya was the saint the way that he described him. And today we all sit here and we know that that is certainly not the case. Sibiya is definitely not a saint. In fact, there are many, many bad things that have come out. So, so yeah, I don't know is I agree with his approach.15:31:26 - 16:04:10And I also think that there is a chance that he's put some of the good private investigator capacity at risk in South Africa because they are people now that want to zoom in into, into overregulating some of those, industries. Alec HoggSo interesting. You know, we as we learn, we realise how little we know. Now, we have had these commissions of inquiry which are opening up whole new avenues of of of information that are challenging a lot of assumptions.16:04:14 - 16:43:46And that's a good thing. That's always a good thing. But it's a reminder as well that we really do know nothing. We only we only have a glimpse of what's going on at the moment. And I want to take you back to July 2021 in KZN, and imagine that the laws which are being proposed to disarm citizens had been enacted before that what the consequences might have been Ian CameronIf it were not for private, lawfully own citizens, the damage to this country, never mind KZN, would have been massive.16:44:03 - 17:04:10There is no way that the police or the SANDF I mean the SANDF they've ran out of supplies within three days. Private people were arranging ammunition for the police to just continue trying to do something. I mean, cops were literally calling into us saying, please help us. We don't have anything to do our jobs with.17:04:10 - 17:29:29We want to work, but we can't. So private citizens proved that first of all, there are a force to be reckoned with. I mean, I love that. And secondly, that, they just emphasised why the state should never have a monopoly over your safety. The other part is that it it really exposed in what poor condition our crime intelligence capacity is and again.17:29:29 - 17:57:08Yeah. And it might be frowned upon by some in the state. I think, it, it emphasised the importance of the private sector and private security and the work that they do, because I'm telling you that a large part of the so-called enclaves or safer spaces in South Africa is not because of the state. It is usually because of private institutions working along with relatively well managed or good municipalities.Alec Hogg 17:57:12 - 18:19:36We were down the and the beach a little while ago, and some guys got out their vehicle, five of them close by the Marine pool in wetsuits, and they jumped in into the pool and Jeanette being Jeanette, said, I want to take a photograph. And the guy said, no, no, no, you can't take my photograph. I'll get into trouble.18:19:40 - 18:51:27So she said, but what are you doing now? You know, my children have to eat. And that was exactly it. They went in to go and poach abalone. But what shocked me was it was 200m away from a major tourist hotspot. What should I have done in that circumstance? Ian CameronSo first of all, Jeanette, you're a you're brilliant. If you if you don't want to share the photo, I'll do it for you.Alec Hogg 18:51:31 - 19:11:15She wasn't allowed to take a photo? No, I wouldn't let it. Ian CameronYeah, yeah, but the fact that you wanted to, im hella impressed. So that's that's brilliant. It's a good step forward. So, Alec, first of all, you can't really confront them. Some of the abalone poachers all are really dangerous. I feel sorry for some of the people in the Hawston community, especially, you know, that.19:11:15 - 19:36:32And about I think it was 2011, 2012 around they, the police, along with agriculture and fisheries, they're trying to arrest poachers that were in the water. Some of them were children. One of the, matric boys ended up drowning in the process. And, later on, a whole group of community members, gangsters, etc. came to the K9 unit in Houston and they set the station alight.19:36:36 - 20:03:03And luckily some of the cops were able to escape and they got the dogs out as well. But that's how serious it was. And that's just here. Now, my predecessor, in the police committee, who passed on, lots of other story. That's a whole different discussion as well. But when she was the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, a lot of the fishing permits were, were stopped.20:03:07 - 20:26:23And, a lot of the people tried to make ends meet and ended up starting to poach. So it's not just a black and white issue. The problem is that now it's become heavily syndicated. It's something that's often directly traded for narcotics. And, and yeah, so it's important to report it for what it's worth, local police.20:26:23 - 20:58:24And this comes back to what I said earlier about political will. Local police don't have the capacity, and they simply don't stand a chance as a station alone. You try and tackle them, in the water. Never mind the, the, the broader issue. Alec HoggSo what is what can be done about it? As the chairman of the portfolio Committee on police now, you don't want to say, hey, you in Hermanus, fix Hermanus, but there are many of these kind of circumstances around here.20:58:28 - 21:38:31It's a good way of using the opportunity. So, so, we've actually met with a lot of the, private people that are involved in trying to combat, this. I think it's something that is a potential capacity that can be built by, the department of fisheries. If we look at the way that, it has been done by, def before, what was previously def, they used to have reasonable capacity and some of the people actually acted as, as reserve as from what I understand.21:38:35 - 21:58:25So that is something to do. The, the problem is that often the arrests are just low level poacher arrest. That's not what we what we need. We need to cut the snake's head off. So you need to go for the for the big, syndicate coordinators. So it's not something that can just be solved at this level.21:58:29 - 22:20:23We need to make sure that you've got dedicated investigative capacity just for that. You need to have dedicated court capacity just for that, because it's a broader organized crime issue. Alec HoggWell, you've got a new minister of fisheries. There's a challenge for him. Lots of questions, starting with Rob Hersov. The question here is, is you said South Africa's drenched in gangsterism.22:20:27 - 22:43:23Do we stand any chance of reversing this? And how ?Ian CameronSo not necessarily every single port of El Salvador, but I think we desperately need a lot more prisons. And if you in any way affiliated with a gang, you need to be properly convicted. According to the the Poca act. It's something that doesn't happen, nearly enough.22:43:23 - 23:02:10It's the Prevention of Organized Crime Act. And it's something that, in my opinion, if done correctly, could put a lot of gangsters away for a very long time. Problem at the moment is we have haphazard arrests of gangsters. They're all low level gangsters, and when they get to prison, it's like a family reunion. So it doesn't doesn't solve the issue.23:02:14 - 23:25:26I spoke to a, ex headmaster the other day in Mitchells Plain. My political constituency is in Mitchells Plain, speaking to an ex headmaster. And he says to me, you know, I used to arrange tours to take the kids to Pollsmoor so that they would not, you know, that they could see where they would end up if they get involved in this, since the problem was they all knew someone, and, and, and and so we need a different mindset.23:25:26 - 23:52:05It's not purely something that you'll just police away. There's this Pablo Escobar kind of mindset that some of these gangsters feed the community, and therefore the community is scared of, of of acting, for example, in, in a part of Tor full circle in Mitchells Plain in my constituency. There was a time about last year that if you drive in with police, you'll hear all the all the ladies shouting, Albert, they shot Albert.23:52:05 - 24:12:03Albert open and they whistle. And that's how they warn everyone that the police are entering the area. But that is often the very same, aunty, that tomorrow when the police do do something or do not do something comes and complains about it. So there's a mind shift that needs to be made. They obviously need to get rid of corruption as well.24:12:07 - 24:32:04Make sure and give us more guns rights that the estimates around Mitchells Plain. You've got between 100 and 130,000 gangsters, or gang affiliated people. So it's it's it's a big problem. I've got no doubt that we can stop. But this is about political will. These guys are connected up to a senior level. I don't think that many of them are very clever.24:32:08 - 24:49:22There are specific kingpins that need to be targeted. SARS needs to pull up their socks and do something to them. It's always easy just to blame the police, but at the end of the day, some of the cops do do solid investigations. Then the prosecution falls flat. All they don't have the support from senior people that they need, Alec HoggSo it's manageable.24:49:22 - 25:12:10It's it can be protected. Henk Des asks, do you support the MK and EFF's treatment of Paul O'Sullivan in the ad hoc committee? Ian CameronNot at all. I, I don't see why they need to try and humiliate someone. If someone is blatantly, a criminal, I don't mind going hard at them and, and tackling them and confronting them.25:12:10 - 25:39:14I've personally done it myself, but I don't see, you you you play the problem, not the men. And the way that they've tried to humiliate some people is unacceptable. Alec HoggSean McLaughlin has come a long way. He's come from Edinburgh. So we give him a question. Yeah. For sure. How far are you prepared to go to get devolution of policing to the Western Cape, i.e. bring down the government, don't pass budgets.Ian cameron 25:39:18 - 26:11:47So, it is a suggestion that I've also made that we should push back on budget because of the expansion of police powers. Devolution is not something that will happen overnight. It'll be a slow expansion. I am proud of that because I don't think that it's as simple as just handing over the the keys. I think that what they could potentially start with is saying, for example, the city of Cape Town has forensic capacity to do ballistic testing, and they've got investigators that can assist with, gang-related gun offenses.26:12:01 - 26:40:24Just that as a start. And we'll immediately start seeing results again. I must ask the question, why would Minister Cachalia and Co not allow it? Because it's the ultimate force multiplier, the cops on the ground or begging for it. Both SAPs and Metro want to do that, so it's purely political. I don't have the sole mandate to make the decision on the budgets, but I'm a supporter of of pushing back on budgets for that reason.26:40:28 - 27:03:32And, and at the same rate, I would push back to make sure that saps, especially on operational level, do actually get adequate budget to fix certain things. Alec HoggYou say purely, purely political. So the party says we want control to be centralised. That's our policy and that's what we're going to fight again, even though it's a rational issue.Ian Cameron 27:03:36 - 27:25:45Sure, let me give you an example. I found out I've actually never said this publicly, but I found out from the beginning of last year that every, we usually have a police committee on a Wednesday, every Tuesday night, there are senior officers of the South African Police Service that brief the ANC members of what is going to be discussed in the in the police portfolio committee.27:25:49 - 27:44:37I know this, and I don't have sleepless nights about it because I can't see it being a very fruitful discussion. So, they can chat all they're like, we still going to go and sort out what we need to sort out. But, but that's the kind of loyalty that it is between certain, officials and this rotten cartel.Alec Hogg 27:44:41 - 28:10:09Well, it's cadence, isn't it? How many generals do we have in South Africa? Ian CameronA shitload, a lot. Alec HoggMany of us are finance professionals and serving in some way in our area of expertise wouldn't really introduce us to much risk. However, areas like yours or any area close to corruption, such as liquidators, may not be safe.28:10:13 - 28:31:27Are you concerned about your safety or others in similar areas? Ian CameronI am, but it's I don't say it in a naive way, that I also don't have sleepless nights about it. You mentioned Galia earlier. My wife, her and I made a, a career decision to say we're going to tackle this to the best of our ability.28:31:31 - 28:52:21In a in a, from a faith perspective, that is our foundation. So and I again, I don't see it in a naive way. I am careful, you know what? We were we were attacked last year in Philippi. We won, but it still wasn't. It was a terrible experience. And it could have been much, much, much worse.Alec Hogg 28:52:25 - 29:14:38It just remind people what happened. Ian CameronWe were doing oversight at the police academy, because of massive corruption once again. And, on our way out, I was driving. We actually arranged a call that doesn't draw attention. We were driving back to the airport to drop off a colleague at the, at the airport from Philippi.29:14:42 - 29:34:46And, she was sitting in the back. Nicholas, my colleague was sitting at the front left with me. And as we were driving through Philippi, a municipal bakkie stopped next to us and said, please be careful. Yeah. And I said to him, we know the area. We've been here often. Don't worry, we'll be careful. And, next moment the taxi stopped and the taxi driver said, guys, please be careful.29:34:46 - 29:57:15Yeah. And, again said, yeah, we we know. And Lisa, sitting in the back, suddenly said something doesn't feel right. And I, 99% of the time I tried to have a firearm on me. And, I said, sure, don't worry. And when I looked around like this, they hit me on this side, and struck me several times on my behind my ear.29:57:19 - 30:16:48They broke all my teeth at the top, split my lip here and my bottom lip, and then me and this guy was. We were in an altercation with each other, and the next moment, I just heard the shot on the other side, and I didn't know whether it was another break. But then they started beating Nicholas, and he was bleeding profusely.30:17:02 - 30:36:21He basically collapsed forward and we were boxed in, couldn't drive, and they just kept coming. It's not like they just threw a brick and ran off. They kept beating us and, they tried to get in by Lisa. And Nick had lost consciousness, so I didn't know. Was he shot? Did they hit him? Is he passed out30:36:21 - 30:59:11What? I don't know if he was alive and, Yeah. Reached over, and I fired a shot at the guy that was trying to get in over Nicholas. I found out later that I hit him in his chest. He's still in custody. And they've abandoned their bail application. Two of the three are still in custody.30:59:15 - 31:03:40The third one was shot dead by someone else in December doing the same thing.Alec Hogg 31:03:44 - 31:14:14Ian we owe you.31:14:18 - 31:27:28John Mark asks regarding the Tembisa Hospital saga. Why do we see asset Forfeiture Unit? Unit taking Lamborghinis but SAPs not arresting the owner?Ian Cameron 31:27:32 - 31:51:31So first of all, SIU they don't arrest. As many of us know, they they, they forfeit. And I think they're phenomenal institutions. So I just want to say that's about them. And I think it's great that Andy Mothibi is now gone to the NPA. I think he's a solid, solid, solid guy.31:51:35 - 32:16:42Regarding the SAPS investigations, in my opinion, political will once again, in fact, the DPCI, the Hawks should have actually laid quite a bit of that. And there's this huge confusion between the organized crime units in SAPs and the DPCI. And and it seems that there's this to and fro sometimes about who controls what. The DPCI, in my opinion, has been hollowed out to a large extent.32:16:42 - 32:39:36There are incredible people that still work there, but if you go to their offices, it is horrendous to see in the the conditions that those senior officers work and so, my opinion, it's political will, that's the main reason. Alec HoggAnd the appointment of Andy Mothibi though does appear to be at least there's some political will to get the the NPA right.32:39:36 - 3:00:23How how relevant was that appointment? Ian CameronI didn't expect it. He didn't tell me anything. We we speak now and then, but it's always work related. So I think it's a very positive move, and I and I must say, you know, we spoke about it last night. It's like Eskom. There have been a lot of arrests and people charged in a scandal last year.33:00:27 - 33:31:25So I don't say these things just to make it sound like everything's bad. I can honestly tell you there are a lot of people that are working day in and day out and fighting back in this system. I mean, if you, look at just in the past week, SAPS have got they in a, in a not, let's put it, politely, about SAPS members that are in taxis and we've been calling them out about this for the past two years because it's a conflict of interest in this very violent industry.33:31:25 - 34:00:17I mean, this morning, three people were shot dead in Delft. Again, taxi drivers, and, despite despite that, SAPS didn't act. So we said to them a week ago, every day, every three hours, I'm going to release another officer at another station with these rank that we know we've identified, that is involved in the taxi industry, and we won't stop until we see them being dismissed or arrested and, or arrested.34:00:21 - 34:20:36And, and, and that's just the way we need to sometimes do things. The funny thing is, when we do that, we suddenly see movement. So, it it's not the ideal opportunity. We obviously need to fix the whole thing. But in the meantime, we'll continue to do those types of things. Alec HoggThank God for the internet.34:20:40 - 34:27:27It is something that makes this kind of distribution very quick. And thank God for you, Ian Cameron. Thank you.

BNC#8: Ian Cameron Q&A - Inside corruption, farm attacks and the truth behind police power

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