Mashaba doubles down on ‘Rainbow Nation’ dream of SA overcoming race-based politics
ActionSA founder Herman Mashaba, was shocked at the way South Africans voted on May 29, but will not leave the political arena. Instead, the successful entrepreneur and former Joburg Mayor will be doubling down on a dream his nation will abandon race-driven political choices that shaped Election'24. However, the Black Like Me mogul admits to being "very nervous" about the outcome of coalition negotiations, fretting about the ability of the many "dishonest" politicians who're involved to counter SA's existential threat of a destructive MK. He spoke to BizNews editor Alec Hogg.
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Highlights form the Interview
In this interview, Alec Hogg speaks with Herman Mashaba, founder and leader of ActionSA, about his challenging role in politics and his commitment to South Africa. Despite describing the job as brutal and unenjoyable, Mashaba emphasizes his dedication to the country. He mentions his capability to retire comfortably but chooses to stay and serve, driven by a sense of duty and fear of divine punishment if he abandons his mission.
Mashaba reflects on his personal journey from poverty to success and the gratitude he feels towards South Africa. He believes it is his responsibility to give back, ensuring a better future for his grandchildren and the country. He expresses his concern over the upcoming political landscape, particularly the formation of a coalition government without the influence of MK, a faction he believes is detrimental due to their association with Jacob Zuma and their unclear political stance.
Mashaba fears that if political parties fail to negotiate in good faith and prioritize the country's well-being, the result could be disastrous. He stresses the importance of unity and coexistence, advocating for the vision of a "rainbow nation" as articulated by Desmond Tutu. Although skeptical about the honesty of political negotiations, he remains hopeful and prays for a positive outcome.
In conclusion, Alec Hogg notes Mashaba's unwavering commitment to South Africa, despite the challenges and uncertainties, highlighting his determination to contribute positively to the nation's political and social fabric.
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Edited transcript of the Interview
00:00:08:13 – 00:00:30:16
Alec Hogg: Herman Mashaba, the founder and leader of ActionSA, had a press conference today. I had a look through the members of Parliament, and it was interesting to note that his name was not among them. Among the six from ActionSA that are going, the immediate suggestion was, oh my goodness, is Herman retiring, going back to business?
00:00:30:18 – 00:00:41:12
Alec Hogg: Well, that's not the case, as you can see. Still wearing his regalia, but we'll find out more about his future in a moment.
00:00:41:13 – 00:01:06:00
Alec Hogg: So there we go. Herman, I saw the information this morning on the IEC website that has been handed over, apparently by the Chief or to the Chief Justice. So we'll have new parliamentarians, 400 of them. Interestingly, you, you might not know this because I've just done all the number crunching, but there are 12 parliamentarians in their 20s, including one young lady who's 20 years old.
00:01:06:02 – 00:01:27:17
Alec Hogg: So she's going to get 100,000 rand a month. That's a dream come true. And then there are 11 who are in their 70s, including the leaders of the ACDP, the ANC, and the Good Party. Isn't that interesting? So you've got the oldies and the newbies and the youngest. But, no Mashaba is in there. Not a single Mashaba and certainly not you.
00:01:27:18 – 00:01:34:04
Alec Hogg: Why aren't you going to Parliament? And what's the future for you and ActionSA?
00:01:34:06 – 00:01:58:21
Herman Mashaba: I think, first of all, thank you as always, Alec, for this great opportunity to have a chat with you. You know, like everybody else, this electoral outcome shocked everyone. No one really expected this, this MK matter, and the drop of the ANC to this level.
00:01:58:22 – 00:02:21:19
Herman Mashaba: No one could ever have imagined. And I think for us, as ActionSA, we expected to do much better than we did. But it is what it is. And as much as I've always been clear that there were some deficiencies with the IEC, our view as ActionSA is that, you know what? Let's move forward. The country is safe from ANC dominance; that is behind us. I think that is what we need to really focus on.
00:02:22:00 – 00:02:43:04
Herman Mashaba: When I was with ActionSA, we looked at the six members of Parliament. I then said to the chaps, we have got a problem. One of my biggest fears, and I raised this today in the press conference, is identity politics. I didn't know if you did a study, Alec, to see how people voted. Worse than even how Verwoerd wanted to divide us. We divided ourselves voluntarily, to the extent of Zuma bringing in a tribal mix into the whole thing.
00:03:17:03 – 00:03:51:18
Herman Mashaba: You look at them: ANC, MK, and EFF were exclusively voted in by black voters. DA also the same, to a large extent, also the white English-speaking Freedom Front Plus, and then the McKenzie factor. You know, and I'm saying, my goodness, this is not the kind of South Africa I envisaged in 1994 when I voted for Nelson Mandela, and Desmond Tutu spoke so eloquently of the Rainbow Nation.
00:03:51:20 – 00:04:15:03
Herman Mashaba: I said, my goodness, our country. I knew the last few years I've always articulated that we are more divided than we were pre-1994, but now we are actually accepting and dividing ourselves, and putting ourselves in this line. I need to do something, and I'm not running away from my country.
00:04:15:05 – 00:04:45:15
Herman Mashaba: I think I need to find a way for South Africans to understand that this identity politics will destroy us as a nation. But for me to go to Parliament, to go and serve in portfolio committees and so forth, I strongly believe I can do a much better job being outside, now having official representation in Parliament.
00:04:45:21 – 00:05:19:09
Herman Mashaba: And if you look at the six people we've assigned to go to Parliament, real stars, led by Athol Trollip with that parliamentary experience, we said, guys, you go out and commit that even today to the media. One thing that I want our six representatives to do: they're not going to Parliament to represent ActionSA, they're going to Parliament to represent the people of South Africa. I committed to the media that every three months I'm going to call a press conference.
00:05:19:09 – 00:05:44:16
Herman Mashaba: Whether it's going to last an hour or two or three or six hours, I want each one of them to give us a report of what role they're playing in Parliament so that they are held accountable. Not by me, but by the people of South Africa. So all of them have agreed to this. You go there, you must know you're not going to be accountable to yourself.
00:05:44:16 – 00:06:14:10
Herman Mashaba: You're going to be accountable to the people of South Africa. And you guys, it's the media, Alec, you can hold them accountable so that they can all the time report to the people of South Africa. But then what it does, it frees me to ensure that I'll go back to the drawing board to find a way to unite South Africans, to understand we're in a very, very difficult situation.
00:06:14:16 – 00:06:39:11
Herman Mashaba: Our survival is dependent on us rallying behind one flag. And that's what I'm going to be doing. In fact, I'm going to be doing more. I have an option. I can opt to leave this country and go live somewhere else. I'm not going anywhere. So I'm still giving it my best shot with this job that I hate.
00:06:39:11 – 00:07:00:20
Herman Mashaba: It's a tough job but it's a rewarding job. I'm going to use my privileged position. Because for me, it's not about going to earn a million rand in Parliament. I think being an ordinary parliamentarian is the last thing in the world. Fortunately enough, the party doesn't pay me, so I'm not going to fight, not going to Parliament.
00:07:01:01 – 00:07:21:17
Herman Mashaba: I'm not going to be a financial liability to the party because they must pay me, unlike all the other political leaders. That's why they go to Parliament. I said, I'm in that fortunate position that I can still lead this party without the party ever having to worry about the financial implications of carrying me.
00:07:21:19 – 00:07:55:06
Alec Hogg: From your perspective, and you are a businessman, you have to be realistic. You underperformed significantly, not just compared to what you expected, but also compared to what happened in the local elections. So when you talk about rebuilding, what does that entail? Where do you begin, and how are you going to be spending your time, given that you've expended a lot of effort and energy already in the run-up to this election without the desired effect?
00:07:55:08 – 00:08:20:16
Herman Mashaba: Yeah, well, I think, Alec, show me any party outside MK that did well. The only two parties that did very well, even surpassing all expectations, were MK and Gayton. He can be happy that he grew a little bit and still celebrate.
00:08:20:18 – 00:08:50:00
Herman Mashaba: But everyone else, I mean, it was a bloodbath. We did not really see this MK effect because when we were doing our work, unfortunately, Zuma, and I don't know who funded him because he never declared his source of income, which is against the law. So that's why we couldn't really see them.
00:08:50:05 – 00:09:17:21
Herman Mashaba: But one thing for sure, for us as ActionSA, we accept that last week this time, ActionSA did not have representation in national government or provincial structures. We are now represented at the national level and in three provinces, including municipalities.
00:09:18:00 – 00:09:41:03
Herman Mashaba: So for us, it's a question of saying, "Yes, I wanted to achieve more, but I had no representation. Now I have six members of Parliament." When I talk about issues, I'm going to be talking about issues being represented.
00:09:41:07 – 00:10:04:07
Herman Mashaba: So I cannot take that as a failure. Is it what I wanted? I would have wanted to perform much better. And obviously, as a businessman or politician, there's no way I'm going to share my strategies or what I need to do right now. You will just see the results.
00:10:04:09 – 00:10:24:00
Herman Mashaba: I can't really share those strategies now. You can take advantage, but I need to go to the drawing board like it happens in business. From time to time, you miss your targets, and you go and regroup. That's really what we need to do.
00:10:24:11 – 00:10:30:08
Herman Mashaba:There is a Zuma factor at play in the South African political landscape at the moment.
00:10:30:10 – 00:10:57:10
Alec Hogg: There's no doubt that your supporters are going to be very excited that you have not stepped away. I guess no one would have blamed you. You've put a lot of money, effort, and energy into it. You do have alternatives, but I love your energy. I'm sure people are going to be very excited to see that Herman Mashaba is not walking away from the fight. He's going to remain a man in the arena, even though you're a little bit bloodied and unbowed. Dust yourself off and keep going.
00:10:57:10 – 00:10:59:19
Alec Hogg: Tell me about Michael Beaumont. He's your national chairperson. He's also not going to Parliament, but I did see that he was on the list for the Gauteng legislature. Tell us about that.
00:11:02:17 – 00:11:13:23
Herman Mashaba: I spoke to Michael last night, and this morning we finalized that he's not going to even the province because I really need Michael. Michael is my machine. He has graciously accepted not to go to the province and ensure that he works with me.
00:11:14:00 – 00:11:41:06
Herman Mashaba: I'm glad I proposed this to him yesterday. He just needed to consult with his family and so forth, and I'm so proud of him. When he came back, he said, "Herman, I actually buy into what you're doing. I'm glad that you have confidence in me." I do have confidence in Michael. Michael is a working machine. I can't do without him.
00:11:41:11 – 00:12:07:07
Herman Mashaba: So I'll have that excellent resource at my disposal to ensure that we regroup. Alec, I'm sure you heard of our pulling out of the MPC. From day one, when we launched ActionSA, we made it clear that we're not going to work with the ANC. When the MPC was formed, we agreed in front of this nation that we would not work with the ANC.
00:12:07:09 – 00:12:36:23
Herman Mashaba: We included a clause that the MPC would cease to exist if all of us agreed to collapse it or if any other party wanted to leave after the elections. We were disappointed last week to learn that other parties were already in negotiations with the ANC. They called a meeting with us on Saturday and did not say anything about it. These people are in breach of the agreement.
00:12:37:01 – 00:13:05:18
Herman Mashaba: I don't have a problem with people changing their minds. You have the right to change your mind, but you cannot be in breach of the agreement and refuse to correct it. That's why we decided to serve them with a notice of our termination of our relationship with them. They need to know we are out. If they thought they betrayed us, they betrayed the South African people because they campaigned on the basis of the agreement they signed with us in the multi-party charter.
00:13:05:18 – 00:13:32:13
Herman Mashaba: They campaigned saying they would never work with the ANC. Looking at the outcome, it's understandable that people can change, but if you have to negotiate with the ANC, then resign from the MPC or call for its dissolution. You can't expect us to be in breach of the agreement and live with it.
00:13:32:18 – 00:14:02:17
Herman Mashaba: I don't conduct life in that manner, and I will never accept anyone compromising me to operate that way. Ethical leadership is paramount to me. Some people call me tough and stubborn. If it means being called stubborn for standing on principle, I'm happy to be stubborn. I will live with my stubbornness because it's principle.
00:15:35:18 – 00:15:54:05
Alec Hogg:
In many of our conversations, you've said this is a brutal job. This is a terrible job. The job that you're doing. But now you're signing up for another five years to do this brutal, terrible job. Why? Surely if you're not loving it and not enjoying it, is it not worth it?
00:15:54:07 – 00:16:28:23
Herman Mashaba:
Alec, tell me, if you want me to, I can pack up and buy a house in Florida tomorrow. What then? And that's actually what I said in a press conference. I have that opportunity. I can. Well, if I go anywhere else in the world, I'll go and buy a house in a golf estate, visit my family twice a year, play golf, drink myself to death until I end up in a mental institution.
00:16:29:01 – 00:16:54:00
Herman Mashaba:
And then I'll strongly believe that God will punish me. So, I think, as much as this is a brutal job, I believe personally, and I'm not imposing this on anybody else, I'm imposing this on myself to say, Herman, this country has been good to you. You're in a privileged position. You can afford to work for the party without being paid.
00:16:54:02 – 00:17:21:11
Herman Mashaba:
You can work for the party, putting money into the party, to save the country. You don't want your grandchildren to live in a divided nation that is refusing to coexist. I don't want to live like that. So, if I don't do this job, honestly, that means I must pack and go, but I know God will punish me, and I love this country.
00:17:21:12 – 00:17:47:03
Herman Mashaba:
And I'm prepared. Honestly, I'm 64. I'll be 65 in August, and 40 years of my life or 64 of my life. Honestly, life has been good to me as much as I was born and brought up in poverty. I know how to sleep without having anything to eat.
00:17:47:03 – 00:18:12:15
Herman Mashaba:
I know how to go to school in winter without shoes. I know how to be punished in school because my mother could not pay my 25 cent school fees. But, look, at the age of 22, I turned my fortunes around using commerce, and I was handsomely rewarded. Now rewarded by this country. For anybody to expect…
00:18:12:15 – 00:18:35:14
Herman Mashaba:
And, I must say, Herman, you are a brilliant businessman, to hell with these South Africans. They don't want to unite, leave them because they're going to kill each other in the years to come. I'm saying no, I'm prepared to pay the ultimate price of doing everything for South Africans to understand. Please, South Africans…
00:18:35:16 – 00:19:09:21
Herman Mashaba:
We can't live in a society… Desmond Tutu coined it so well with the term "rainbow nation." We need the rainbow nation. And I'm going to do everything possible to create the rainbow nation. Will I succeed? Alec, I will have tried, and I can tell you, in terms of that, I will sleep without food, but I'll have no house.
00:19:09:23 – 00:19:17:14
Herman Mashaba:
I'll owe people. That is not going to happen. So I think, leaving this country is not an option.
00:19:17:16 – 00:19:51:03
Alec Hogg:
Fantastic. Well, again, I'm sure many people will give you a double thumbs up for that. But, Herman, this time that you spent in politics, you are well-connected, you listen to people, you get lots of information coming through. How do you think the rest of South Africa is going to appear politically in two weeks' time? In other words, when these parties have made their decisions and set themselves up for the kind of power play they're going to have, you clearly are not interested in getting involved in any of that.
00:19:51:05 – 00:20:01:02
Alec Hogg:
Certainly not this time around. Watch out in five years' time, I guess, is the message I'm getting from you. But how do you see this all developing over the next couple of weeks?
00:20:01:04 – 00:20:30:16
Herman Mashaba:
Well, the first hurdle we need to pass is the formation of a coalition government without MK. I really hope we are not part of this. I hope and pray that materializes. If the political parties involved can put their egos aside and negotiate, putting South Africa first.
00:20:30:18 – 00:21:02:09
Herman Mashaba:
That's really what I'm hoping they can achieve. You know, that's the first hurdle we need to pass. Because, Alec, if we fail to do this and we have the ANC grouping going with the Zuma faction side, I don't know. I ask you, don't be surprised if I talk to you a week later and say, "Alec, we've got problems that are insurmountable."
00:21:02:11 – 00:21:29:12
Herman Mashaba:
Perhaps, I've got to rethink my own personal future. So that is something that scares the hell out of me. I'm very scared. But looking at these political parties that must negotiate, I don't know how they're going to negotiate. Because these are dishonest people by nature. They are politicians, which is very unfortunate.
00:21:29:12 – 00:22:03:03
Herman Mashaba:
No one is going to go there to negotiate in good faith. So that puts the whole country at risk. I'm nervous, and unfortunately, because I'm not part of this, I'm going to pray for them that they can find a middle ground that can work and cut the MK out. Because MK into this, ask yourself, have you spoken to any of the MK people to understand what this party stands for?
00:22:03:05 – 00:22:33:03
Herman Mashaba:
People who voted for them, they don't know that. They just voted for Jacob Zuma. So, I mean, how on earth in a democratic environment, are people voting for a political party to which they don't know what it stands for? Even their party itself, they don't know what they stand for. It's actually quite scary because the only thing that they've been vocal about is the change of the constitution.
00:22:33:05 – 00:22:57:22
Herman Mashaba:
Do away with constitutional democracy, do away with the Constitutional Court so that the ultimate power lies with them as politicians. So they can do as they please. You can't take them to court. And then, Alec, if that is the case, I'm sure God will understand if I say, "Look, this country's not for me."
00:22:58:00 – 00:22:59:21
Herman Mashaba:
I don't belong to this.
00:22:59:23 – 00:23:13:06
Alec Hogg:
I don't think you'll be alone on that one, Herman. I don't think you'll be alone. Herman Mashaba is the founder and leader of ActionSA. Certainly not leaving the arena, as we've heard. I'm Alec Hogg from BizNews.com.
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