Chris Steyn (00:01.024)

Imagine a mega metropolis of Johannesburg, Tshwane and Ekurhuleni.

With me is Morne Mostert, Local Government Affairs Manager for AfriForum. Welcome Morne.

Morne Mostert (00:14.333)

Good morning.

Chris Steyn (00:15.906)

Morne, what do you think of the African National Congress's idea of this mega metropolis?

Morne Mostert (00:22.941)

Well, I think firstly, we must understand that this is like a policy statement made by the ANC within the province and it's obviously very important for them.

I think you can have an easy approach on it to say that most of the ANC or the principled ANC would always like to have a centralist government, and would also always like to have a bigger government. It's maybe not that...it's not that far-fetched that they would say something like that, but I do think that if you look at South Africa and you look at maybe all of the evidence given in South Africa, AfriForum's viewpoint is that bigger municipalities does not necessarily mean better municipalities.

We've seen across the country that the single principle that stands out if a municipality is governed well is if they have a service delivery focus or not. If they do have a service delivery focus, then obviously, usually the services are being rendered. If there is some form of science coupled with the strategy that they want to implement, then it goes better. Well, it goes better for the citizens.

And I do think it's important to state that there's a lot of legal hurdles as well for the ANC to understand. It's not just that simple to have this megametropolis that they want in Gauteng.

And even given the performance of Gauteng, which most of the municipalities in Gauteng are already larger municipalities and they are not the best performing municipalities in the country. I do think that this policy statement by the ANC is riddled with issues from the start, but that's nothing new coming from the ANC.

Chris Steyn (02:12.824)

So what processes would the African National Congress have to follow now, if they want to make this a reality?

Morne Mostert (02:19.206)

Well, firstly, they need to go to the Demarcation Board to actually demarcate most of these municipalities. That's obviously a long process. The Demarcation Board, then, has a specific public participation process where they not really advocate, but where they put all of the facts towards the community to be able to take part in that process. Then they would have to issue a specific document reallocating all of the functions of that municipality. So one of the primary functions of the Demarcation Board is actually giving specific municipal structures its functions that it needs to implement within the municipal boundaries. Now remember that in other municipalities where you have a district and a local municipality, it's very important to understand what functions are at the district level and what functions at the local level. Yet with metropolitan municipalities, it's obviously a single municipality that has all of these functions that they need to perform.

I think secondly, well, I do think that's a very large hurdle, right? Having to create this, let's say, fictional municipality is going to...have a very large impact. And I think a second important point to take note is it's interesting for politicians to say that they want bigger and larger municipalities. And the reason why I'm maybe smiling while I'm saying this is that municipal councillors remuneration is based upon how big the municipality is. So it's very obvious for political structures to say, yes, let's create a larger municipality as it will benefit them personally.

But once again, if you go look at the science and if you go look at the focus points of where municipal performance lies, then the larger municipalities are not per se the performing municipalities. And I thought about this example.

Morne Mostert (04:40.548)

Maybe the ANC can go, yes, but look at the city of Cape Town. They are performing well. They are a municipality that functions, let's say, within a science scope. And this is not me trying to have any political input. I mean, we have had our agreements and differences with the city of Cape Town. But if you can look at that municipality, you won't say it's the scale of that municipality that's the defining factor for good performance. And that's where, given that the municipal election is on its way, I do think that normal people, normal citizens, understand this better than maybe ANC politicians think.

But yeah, if we look at like... basic processes of municipalities. Let's say, from AfriForum side, when we write a letter, when there's problems within the municipality, just having the decency to have a reply or give some form of evidence on your specific argument or standpoint that you have. You know, when we write to certain municipalities, we don't usually give an answer and that's why we need to litigate. Which is the basic principle, right? If you're a municipal manager, which is the accounting officer at the municipality, and there's this organisation on ground level that have certain discussion points or problems with the budget or problems with how services are being rendered, obviously, it's just normal courtesy to have a discussion and to maybe have a meeting to have these performance discussions.

But what we see with most of the ANC municipalities, that if you don't go to the courts, they're not really want to address some of these problems. And I think that is where the ANC has a very large scale problem. They don't have a service delivery focus. Their focus is on the other mandates that they have rather than specifically trying to render services to a specific standard and rendering these services to the people of South Africa. And I do think that's the biggest problem. If they want to have a policy change, I think they should start there.

Chris Steyn (06:58.503)

What remedies would AfriForum consider to protect residents should they push ahead with this fantasy mega metropolis?

Morne Mostert (07:05.286)

Well, obviously the first step would be to take part in any formal processes. If the process is started with the Demarcation Board or with any other legislature, other legislation that they would like to implement. Obviously that's the first step is we will take part in these public participation processes.

I do think the one thing that has been coming up a lot lately is during participation processes and in the last month of these processes, a lot of decisions are taken.

So we are actually in the process now of considering a bunch of municipalities budgets for not implementing certain tariffs, well, not advertising certain tariffs. The reason I mentioned this is it just shows you how unscientific most of these municipalities processes are and given that we will obviously have a close look on the process that is being taken if this wants to happen that we would focus on it, but I do think there's a large substantial problem with the argument and the substance of precisely what they would argue for why would be beneficial to residents would be interesting to see and I don't think would be filled with the rationality that is required to them in administrative law.

Obviously we would do a full scale, we would tackle it legally full scale. We don't think this will benefit, this won't benefit any citizens on ground level and that's why AfriForum would obviously oppose it.

Chris Steyn (08:57.165)

Can you tell me offhand what the scale of legal battles is with municipalities from AfriForum side? The scale of your litigation.

Morne Mostert (09:08.572)

Maybe the most prominent change that we have seen in the last, let's say, year, year and a half is due to municipal malperformance. They have run out of finances and we have seen that there's certain spaces where…. provincial and national funds have been stopped because National Treasury also has run out of funds.

So our latest primary focus with regards to litigation are shadow fees and taxes that our municipalities put into the tariff bylaws and put into the budgets. So what we see is because they're running out and because of a lot of litigation with regards to specific funds, they can't put percentages up 10, 20, 30 % because I think...it's now general that it's easier to set those types of decisions aside. But if you start a new tariff, then either people miss it, which happened in a lot of municipal budgets, or as I mentioned, they just don't name it within the draft budget or draft IDP, which means there's no public participation with regards to those fees, and then they just go implement it.

I think that's one primary focus that we are seeing is that municipalities are really trying new ways to add additional funds to increase the income stream of municipalities, which I think in most municipalities, are just, it's irregular and unconstitutional.

I think the second part is trying to bring back some form of scientific approach with regards to municipal services. We, it is well known about the cost of supply… court cases that we brought… where municipalities must have this cost of supply, which is a basic, let's say a functional document to explain what are the costs with regards to service delivery as the Municipal Function Powers Act basically states that you as a consumer,

Morne Mostert (11:33.553)

…should only be allowed to pay for the specific municipal service that you use. And that means that when you ask a municipality, then there must be some form of, you know, scientific answer or document that you can understand where municipal service delivery comes from. And usually, either the municipalities don't have that, or they don't have the courtesy to give you those documents.

So we want to bring back the fact that if there is a municipality that has a specific focus and a strategic document where you can go read and understand an explanation on why they need these additional funds, then obviously, AfriForum can understand it and take it from there.

But we do think that most of these municipalities are just running to get funds together and they're not doing that in a legal or lawful manner. So that's the second large theme.

And I think the third large theme is the municipal services that are not being rendered and where community-based organisations or other organisations are banding together to try and to see how they can render these municipal services in such a way where it's not a for-profit running, trying to get a company to do it, but it's also a community that's just trying to survive under the municipal decay of municipalities.

I do think these three types of litigation are going to increase in the next five years, five to 10 years.

Maybe lastly, some of the last types of litigation that I think is going to increase is where municipalities that are not functioning get an order against them and then they just want to appeal on taxpayers' money continuously. I do think there's a Rule 18 application where you want the original order to be implemented while the appeal is still waiting. And I do think that's also going to increase. Now, usually that is a very risky application, but given the municipal decay that we are in, I do think judges and the legal system see the dire situation that...

Morne Mostert (13:55.579)

…normal citizens are in, and can't wait for three, five years for the litigation process where that opportunity to implement is already there.

I think litigation is a very important tool. It's not the only tool strategically to assist communities, but it is a very important tool, especially given the malperformance of municipalities in general, but specifically municipalities that have no focus on rendering services.

Chris Steyn (14:27.373)

Morne, as we are heading towards a Local Government Election, what's the sentiment like on the ground?

Morne Mostert (14:35.056)

Well, I think most people are frustrated. No economy can function properly if there isn't regular, efficient and readily available services. This means that municipalities that function in such a manner, you know, people are in dire straits.

And I do think the cost of municipal services are also going up. I do think electricity and water, well, electricity prices are much too high. And this leaves people in a situation of unrest and not understanding, they feel helpless in the manner that they can do. So I do think there's a feeling on ground level, is people are frustrated with municipal councils and on the other hand with the municipality, the administration side as well.

I do also think that it's not only this municipal election that is important. I do think given the constitutional structure it's important to understand that provinces where municipalities fail or maybe don't have the correct skills to actually, you know, deliver services. The Constitution is written in such a manner that province then must go and assist municipalities where, you know, where they are struggling. I do think we are getting to a point where neither province or national departments in South Africa are struggling to either intervene or have the correct skills to actually assess to render services, which is a very worrying situation that we are in.

So I don't only think it's about this election. Yes, it is important. So you've seen all of the signs in the roads and you know, everyone is now making promises and it's silly season. But I do think at the base, people just want some normality. Normality means when I...

Morne Mostert (16:54.562)

…open the tap, there comes clean water and I don't need to worry if there's something wrong with the water. It means I've uninterrupted electricity, means the streets are clean - and people really want that situation and I do think that they might vote for that in this.

Chris Steyn (17:13.341)

Talking about who they might vote for, which parties are picking up support, which parties are losing support.

Morne Mostert (17:20.518)

Well, it's very important for AfriForum, we are apolitical. We obviously work with different political parties where we agree on certain things and we disagree. So I think that's a very important distinction.

But secondly, for the municipal elections, everybody is on a form of WhatsApp group on your ward councillor. And I think...normal people are smart enough to know when you have a ward councillor that worked for you, that really tried to better the services in their area, then it obviously would be for normal people to decide on how they vote. And that is obviously a good vote. And the opposite is also true. When you do know and understand that local councillors did not assist or did not be in the media for the right reasons, then I do think normal people understand how to vote.

So I think...It's very important for AfriForum to understand, you know, it's a civil rights organisation. Maybe one of the most important ones is the right to vote. So people must please go and vote. I think that we encourage it. Every year we also take part in the process of monitoring the voting stations. Our branch structures also take part in the monitoring process of the municipal elections. So that is very important to us.

But given that, do hope there's a voter turnout. I do think that it is very important for all municipalities to see specifically what the people are voting for. And we will obviously handle that process as well. But there is a very nice Afrikaans word that I was scared to say, but now the people are gatvol.

Chris Steyn (19:11.789)

No, I think that word belongs in the South African dictionary. Thank you. That was Morne Mostert, AfriForum's Manager of Local Government Affairs, speaking to BizNews. I am Chris Steyn Thank you, Morne.

Morne Mostert (19:30.471)

Thank you very much, Chris.

Morné Mostert: ANC’s “fantasy megatropolis” faces full-scale fight from AfriForum