Listen here.Athol Trollip delivers a blistering critique of South Africa’s handling of the foot-and-mouth disease crisis, arguing that government bureaucracy and a state-controlled vaccination strategy are failing farmers and allowing the outbreak to spread. Drawing on decades of farming experience, the ActionSA parliamentary leader says commercial farmers should be empowered to vaccinate their own herds, while state resources focus on vulnerable rural communities. He warns that delays, poor execution and political stubbornness are deepening economic damage and could carry serious political consequences..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Edited transcript of the interview.00:00:09:20 – 00:00:32:09Alec Hogg:ActionsA is making a little bit of a comeback in the popularity polls recently, and it'll be interesting to see how it performs in the election on the 4th of November. But we're not going to talk about that. We're going to talk to the man who is driving, certainly in Parliament, the most aggressive support for farmers.00:00:32:09 – 00:00:54:13Alec Hogg:Well, I don't know if you could call it most aggressive because certainly Freedom Front Plus has also been in there as well. But Athol Trollip from ActionSA, the leader of ActionSA in Parliament, has been very vocal in his opposition to the way the foot-and-mouth disease crisis has been handled by the former DA leader, John Steenhuisen, as well as a farmer.00:00:54:17 – 00:01:02:13Alec Hogg:So he should know. We'll find out more from him in a moment.00:01:02:15 – 00:01:20:20Alec Hogg:That's why I know whenever I talk to you, Athol, it's always early in the morning. You've still got those farmer genes very deep in your soul, but you also have been a politician for a while. And you know John's DNA, and you were in the same party as John Steenhuisen for a long time. I suppose there would be those saying, "Oh yes, but he would say anyway that the DA is making a mess of it."00:01:20:20 – 00:01:25:14Athol Trollip:Yeah, no. Good morning.00:01:25:16 – 00:02:40:05Athol Trollip:I am a farmer, born a farmer. And as you say, once you have those genes in you, they don't go away. I'm a sixth-generation farmer, so farming is actually what I have done most of my life. I have been a politician for nearly 40 years. Part of that time I was both a farmer and a politician.So farming is very much my focus. It's my passion. I was a livestock farmer, so this foot-and-mouth disease outbreak is particularly something that I'm concerned about.More importantly, not only because of me being a livestock farmer. I know that many of the people who live in the rural areas, the poor rural hinterland of this country, rely solely on livestock. Livestock not only has a commercial value, but it is the cornerstone and backbone of rural livelihoods.If those livelihoods are destroyed even more than they are now - and we have the greatest urbanisation challenge in the whole world because people are fleeing the poverty of the rural hinterland - this is compounding that.So yes, I know John Steenhuisen and I know the DA better than most because I spent most of my life in that party and its predecessor parties.One thing I do know about the DA and its predecessor parties is that it is not a statist organisation. It is a political party that champions smaller government and champions more involvement of the private sector.00:02:40:07 – 00:03:09:00Athol Trollip:And that's why this management of this crisis has been so confounding for me and everybody else, in that we have a DA minister who has doggedly stuck to a statist approach to handling the management of this foot-and-mouth disease outbreak.00:03:23:16 – 00:03:39:13Alec Hogg:Now we can ask him, and he will presumably say he's only doing his job. But from where you're sitting, what's the backstory? Why is the ANC supportive of this whole approach? Because it has been surprising many people.00:03:39:14 – 00:04:06:19Athol Trollip:You know, Alec, not only for your interview, but I've been monitoring this very carefully in the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture. As you said, I'm very outspoken on that committee.The Freedom Front Plus has been outspoken, but they're not well represented, or represented at all, on that committee. So they speak basically from the sidelines.I was reading a report from the Director-General of Agriculture this morning, Mooketsa Ramasodi, and it was addressed to the chairperson of the committee. He wanted to report on the update on the management of foot-and-mouth disease in the Western Cape.00:04:06:19 – 00:05:12:23Athol Trollip:Now, I sent you some communication from our last Portfolio Committee meeting where the department was lamenting the fact that they don't have enough money to travel, that they have restrictions around access to vehicles and funding for petrol.They also have limited staff resources.But let me read directly from this letter from Mr Ramasodi to the chairperson from the Western Cape. It says:"The outbreak furthermore places increasing strain on state resources, including veterinary personnel, laboratory and diagnostic services, vaccination logistics, surveillance operations, disaster management coordination structures and biosecurity enforcement."Now, if you take those six issues that I've just read to you that are the main constraining factors in handling this disease for the department, and you give them to the people who are most affected by this disease and say to them:"You handle access to veterinary personnel. You handle the services of laboratory and diagnostic systems. You handle the vaccination logistics. You handle surveillance of your own animals. You handle the disaster management prescriptions. And, most importantly, you take care of biosecurity on your farm."Half of the department's problems will go away.00:05:13:01 – 00:06:03:14Athol Trollip:But what I can't understand is that initially the department really battled to get hold of vaccines. It was a slow process.Recently we were told that there were 9.8 million vaccines in the country, but only 3.8 million vaccines had actually been administered.The minister is now saying that there are 13.5 million vaccines in the country, but that number of 3.8 million is only going up incrementally, very slowly.So the problem no longer appears to be access to vaccines. It appears to be vaccination.Now, Alec, one thing farmers do every day of their lives is vaccinate animals.00:06:03:14 – 00:07:18:08Athol Trollip:I received a WhatsApp from a really good friend of mine who's one of the top dairy farmers in the Eastern Cape a few weeks ago when he was so excited to have finally received his allocation of vaccines.He had two members of staff who stand at the entrance of a rotary milking parlour and administer and monitor every single cow that goes onto that rotary parlour on a daily basis, twice a day.Now, those two women know those cattle intimately. They know them by sight. They're also assisted by an ear tag system, which gives them digital information per cow.They then apply whatever veterinary requirements are needed by that animal and make note if the animal needs mastitis treatment or whatever.And they were vaccinating.This friend of mine said, "Done and dusted in one morning."The beauty about that is that those farm labourers are there again in the evening. They're there the next day. They're there the next evening.Whereas a department official, if they go onto a farm that is contaminated with foot-and-mouth disease to vaccinate animals, can't go to another property for seven days.Whereas if you give the vaccine to a farmer on his or her farm, or in their village, they can vaccinate those animals. They don't have to go to another farm and life continues.But they have put in a prophylactic preventative measure against the disease spreading across their herds.00:07:18:10 – 00:08:00:17Alec Hogg:It's quite astonishing, as you know, as I've also farmed for a period in my life as well, to see the disconnect between the bureaucracy, who demand that the farmers may not vaccinate their own herds, and the reality of it.It just would be impossible. You'd never get anything done if you were always relying on a vet, apart from going bankrupt with vet bills.00:08:00:17 – 00:08:06:15Alec Hogg:So where does this disconnect come from, or is there something darker behind it?00:08:06:17 – 00:09:03:20Athol Trollip:Look, I don't think it's darker than ineptitude and bureaucratic bungling and statist ideology.I really don't believe that it's anything worse than that.But Judge van der Schyff, who found against the department in the litigation between the Department of Agriculture, Minister Steenhuisen and Agri Free State, said that there's nothing in law that prevents a farmer from doing exactly what you've just said.Now, you saw what happened to the Midlands of KZN, where you happened to farm. The dairy industry was devastated. They were hit hardest.And we've seen since then that it's rolled across the country. It literally has gone across the country like a veld fire.Interestingly, I was listening to Frans Cronje the other day, and it's amazing how journalists have familiarised themselves with this outbreak. It's concerning that the minister and the department haven't done as much homework.00:09:03:20 – 00:09:28:11Athol Trollip:Frans Cronje was explaining that if you have Bos indicus-type cattle, which are cattle that come from Asian countries, they are more immune.So are the indigenous cattle of Africa. They appear to be more immune or resilient to this strain of foot-and-mouth disease than European breeds.00:09:28:13 – 00:10:20:06Athol Trollip:Now, most of the dairy animals come from European breeds, and they are more susceptible.But also, the living conditions - living in often confined spaces, on top of each other, being fed out of communal feed troughs, being in the same rotary parlour every single day, twice a day with other cattle - that is the kind of environment where this disease spreads rapidly.But one thing that has been proven is that if you get your animals vaccinated, you can slow the disease down.Now, the Minister of Agriculture - and I commend him - made an observation that in this country we've been chasing foot-and-mouth disease for the last number of decades, and his objective is to get ahead of it.He has now come up with this national disaster plan where we will vaccinate up to 80% of all the cattle in South Africa.00:10:20:08 – 00:10:42:09Athol Trollip:Now, that's a noble objective, but the objective needs to be implemented and you need to meet the target.And it's not one year to vaccinate 80% of the cattle. You need to vaccinate 80% of the cattle in this country as soon as possible, preferably within a window period of three to four months maximum, and then come back with the follow-up vaccinations.00:10:42:11 – 00:11:07:02Athol Trollip:Now, the department has set itself this goal of 80% before the end of the year, and there will be reinfections before then.There are already reinfections.Even in the Western Cape, which was one of the last infected provinces, we're starting to see an uptick of cases.00:11:07:04 – 00:11:39:10Athol Trollip:There are 22 cases now in the Western Cape, and that has been since the declaration of this disaster.So we're not getting ahead of this. We are still chasing the foot-and-mouth disease outbreak.The minister should do some introspection and reflection.I saw the other day that an MP from the Democratic Alliance in Gauteng posted that the province was not on top of its game.And I suppose it's a national government malaise all over the world. If they are responsible for a national disaster management programme but things aren't happening in the provinces, then they will blame MECs and they will blame provinces.00:11:39:12 – 00:12:03:08Athol Trollip:Now, the national disaster management of foot-and-mouth disease lies squarely with the National Department of Agriculture under the control of the minister.So if the MECs are not doing their jobs, then the minister must intervene.00:12:03:10 – 00:12:28:00Athol Trollip:One of the members on our Portfolio Committee from the Democratic Alliance posted a WhatsApp on our group to say that he's concerned that in Limpopo they are vaccinating animals without ear tags, without recording the vaccinations, without proper surveillance.In other provinces they are sitting on stockpiles of vaccinations, while other provinces are still waiting for vaccines.00:12:28:02 – 00:12:51:07Athol Trollip:Now, when you get that kind of lamenting in a Portfolio Committee from people from the same party as the minister, then I would think that it was time for the minister to start doing some introspection.I don't want it to be about Athol Trollip criticising a former colleague. That's way beyond me, or beneath me.00:12:51:07 – 00:13:30:16Athol Trollip:I've been out of the DA for many years before I got back into politics, and I never slagged off the DA.It would be completely disingenuous for me to slag off my former party that I led in many positions for nearly 40 years.I'm not that kind of politician. I'm a conviction politician. I'm not a career politician.If I was, I would have stayed in the DA and endured the things that bothered me and just stayed there for a salary.I'm not here for a salary.When I left the DA, I went into an agricultural advisory business of my own. I survived. I did well, and I can do it again.I'm not reliant on a job in Parliament.00:13:30:18 – 00:14:03:04Athol Trollip:But while I'm in Parliament, and while I have a job here and a responsibility, I'm going to do it regardless of who the minister is and whether he was a former colleague or not.We are not getting on top of this foot-and-mouth disease outbreak.And I really appreciate the fact that you've had some of the top dairy people around.Here's a guy called Andrew Murphy who writes a lot about what's happening on the ground.We're not getting ahead of it.00:14:03:04 – 00:14:23:15Athol Trollip:But one thing I can tell you is that every farmer that does get vaccine receives a huge amount of relief from the anxiety of waiting and waiting and waiting.Because it's a waiting game to contract foot-and-mouth disease.It's not a waiting game to just wait for the vaccines.00:14:23:15 – 00:14:33:01Athol Trollip:While you're waiting, you could contract foot-and-mouth disease on your property despite every effort to ensure biosecurity.We've spoken about it before.It can come across a fence with a crow or a vulture or a nocturnal animal that is a carrion feeder.That's how it happens.00:15:11:09 – 00:16:02:23Alec Hogg:I'm still a little confused.So, the Minister of Agriculture, John Steenhuisen, is saying we're going to vaccinate the herd in South Africa.Okay.But we are part of the African continent, and close to the north of us there are cattle elsewhere on the continent.More than that, we also have endemic foot-and-mouth disease in many of the wild animals.For many years, certainly from what Dr Frikkie Maré was explaining to me, there was a buffer zone between the Kruger National Park and farming areas.If you happen to vaccinate the herd once, does it mean you have to keep vaccinating the herd every year to ensure that, because of our unique circumstances, this disease does not come through?Or is the buffer-zone idea being reconsidered?Clearly it didn't work in this case, but it did work for many decades before.00:16:12:22 – 00:17:08:00Athol Trollip:Yeah, that's a very good point.First of all, our SADC neighbours are also now contaminated with foot-and-mouth disease. So not only are we looking after livestock in South Africa, it's Southern Africa.Look, it's spread across the world. There are Asian countries that are having the same SAT 1 strain outbreaks.There are a number of things.First of all, the buffer zone was not maintained.So we were able to maintain control over foot-and-mouth disease despite having areas where it is endemic.We were able to do that because there was a buffer zone, or red zone, and that was backed up by Onderstepoort Biological Products and the Agricultural Research Council, which was really on top of its game, providing the vaccines for the whole of Southern Africa, but certainly for all South African farmers.00:17:08:02 – 00:17:54:21Athol Trollip:Now, here's one of my greatest concerns.This iconic institution, international institution, Onderstepoort Biological Products, has been allowed to become the laughing stock of this country and is no longer an iconic international institution.The minister, when he became minister in 2024, committed to the country and the farmers of this country that he would investigate the R500 million that was misappropriated, which was intended to build a Good Manufacturing Practice facility to provide vaccinations to South Africa and the world under acceptable controlled conditions.00:17:54:22 – 00:18:19:21Athol Trollip:Now, R500 million went missing.That report is still missing.Recently, the minister's spokesperson said that they're no longer doing a forensic audit as the department. They have handed it over to the SIU and she is waiting for a response.Now, you know how lethargic the SIU has been over the last number of years, especially under the leadership of Shamila Batohi.00:18:19:23 – 00:18:52:05Athol Trollip:But waiting for the SIU to conduct an investigation while you are preparing to spend over R1 billion again to establish a Good Manufacturing Practice facility at Onderstepoort under the authority of the Agricultural Research Council would be a major concern for me.If I was the minister, I would not want to be embarking on a new venture on the foundation of a very flawed management organisation at Onderstepoort.And that's what's happening right now as we speak.00:18:52:07 – 00:19:22:10Athol Trollip:So, sure, that's a big deficiency.What we require now, because we have this outbreak that has spread right across the country, is that we will be vaccinating our livestock for the next 10 to 12 years.And this is where I get lost.I get lost here because the minister has declared, or got the president to declare, this a state of disaster based on the fact that we can get ahead of this outbreak if we do what they've done in South America, in Argentina and Brazil.00:19:22:12 – 00:19:47:17Athol Trollip:But what we have done is we've abrogated the successful model of those countries and said the state will control everything.We will import the vaccine.We will distribute the vaccine.We will vaccinate the animals ourselves.We will do the surveillance.And we will do the follow-up.And that is where this government has proved to be incapable of fulfilling its strategy.00:19:47:19 – 00:20:27:13Athol Trollip:In South America, the strategy was slightly different.The state did procure the vaccines, and they made sure that they had facilities in their countries that could produce them at scale.Then they made the vaccines available on co-operative shelves and veterinary outlets, where farmers could access the vaccines, apply them, vaccinate the animals, and conduct daily surveillance.They would then report back to the state.And they did it region by region.00:20:27:15 – 00:20:49:15Athol Trollip:So instead of saying, "We're going to have a shotgun approach and do it across the whole country", what they did was:"We'll start in KZN, where the epicentre was.We will then move to Mpumalanga, adjacent to KZN, then move to Gauteng and make sure that there is saturation vaccination.Then slowly move across the country to where the outbreak was not so significant."00:20:49:16 – 00:21:14:08Athol Trollip:The Northern Cape and Western Cape had fewer cases, and there were isolated cases in the Eastern Cape.So I think we missed a trick there.We should have applied the successful model.And that's where the term "good practice" comes from.If you identify a good practice somewhere in the world that has dealt with a challenge like this, then if you apply the same model, you don't have to learn new lessons through the school of hard knocks.00:21:14:10 – 00:21:25:21Athol Trollip:Now, I want to read to you from this report and tell you what the school of hard knocks is actually about - not from the mouth of Athol Trollip, but from the mouth of the Director-General to the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee.00:21:26:03 – 00:22:09:06Athol Trollip:It says:"Economic impact of disease outbreaks: domestic and international markets.The current foot-and-mouth disease outbreak in the Western Cape is having a significant economic impact on the provincial livestock industry and broader agricultural value chain.Movement restrictions, quarantines, reduced slaughter throughput and disruptions to livestock markets are increasing operational costs for farmers while reducing income and productivity.Dairy, beef, feedlot, transport, auction and processing sectors are particularly affected, with smallholder and emerging farmers remaining highly vulnerable due to limited financial resilience and prolonged restrictions on animal movement and trade."00:22:09:08 – 00:22:33:19Athol Trollip:Now, this disease is having a profound impact in one of the sectors of our economy that has performed rather well.And you know why they perform well, Alec?We're not the biggest exporter of citrus in the whole world because of luck.We have brilliant citrus farmers who have identified that, with our climate, we can produce varietals right across the year that compete with Spain.00:22:33:21 – 00:22:59:08Athol Trollip:Spain has tried everything in the book to block us from exporting our products into Europe.But we've overcome that because we are a resilient bunch of farmers in this country.So here's the trick that I think the minister has missed.And in the last sentence of what I've just read to you, it says particularly small livestock owners, not commercial farmers, and people who live in communal areas whose livestock are mixed together.They are highly susceptible to the spread of this disease.00:22:59:10 – 00:23:52:16Athol Trollip:If the state had said, "We will use every state resource to make sure that every single animal that is held by small livestock owners, small-scale farmers and people living in communal areas is vaccinated," and left the rest up to the commercial farming sector to take care of their own animals, which we have proven through generations in this country - in fact, over centuries in this country - we have proven that we can produce the best agricultural products in the world in one of the most constrained environments.We're a rain-scarce country, yet we export so much.So, Alec, this is where I believe the department dropped the ball.They should have focused their resources on helping the helpless who don't have the resources to take care of their animals properly, confine them, or maintain adequate fencing.That's where the effort should have been focused because if there's no fencing, animals move around as they please. That's how the disease spreads.Whereas on commercial operations, commercial farmers maintain fences, they maintain biosecurity, and they have the resources to vaccinate their livestock.00:23:52:20 – 00:24:18:02Athol Trollip:If the department had said that's the way the public-private partnership is going to work, we would have been ahead of this curve already and we would have been starting to look at revaccination.But I think what Judge Van der Schyff stated in his court ruling was that he reinforced the fact that government does not have the authority to constrain South Africans beyond constitutional provisions.And he said there is no provision that prohibits a farmer from vaccinating his livestock.00:24:18:08 – 00:24:44:01Athol Trollip:That is what matters.00:24:59:03 – 00:25:24:13Alec Hogg:You've given us wonderful insights from the farming perspective. Thank you.But from the political perspective, you have a Minister of Agriculture who was deposed by his own party and is no longer the leader of his own party.He got a scathing court judgment against him.He's caused unbelievable antagonism amongst the farming community, which is an important community when it comes to voting as well.Can Steenhuisen survive this?And indeed, the fact that we now see the knives coming out would suggest that his own party might want to depose him.What's your reading of it?You know the politics far better than most of us.00:25:42:22 – 00:26:27:17Athol Trollip:You know, Alec, I'll tell you one thing because I've experienced it.There's nothing more than an ex-leader in politics.Some of them cling on, some of them want to come back, but once you're an ex-leader, you're an ex-leader.The fact that the minister still knows that he's coming under friendly fire from his own organisation - and as I said, there is shouting in legislatures and WhatsApp groups from members of his party in the Portfolio Committee - and there is more and more recalcitrance from the minister.This is what I can't understand.I sent you a clip where he was interviewed about this particular litigation before it went to court.And he just laughed.He literally laughed in the face of the reporter who asked what would happen in the court case.And he said, "Well, they'll just have to wait another month."00:26:27:17 – 00:26:53:20Athol Trollip:Now, a month is a long time for people waiting for vaccination.And now the fact that only 3.8 million cattle have been vaccinated is a concern.It's compounded by the fact that we're now having outbreaks in pigs.Now, once you have outbreaks in cattle and you don't get that under control, and it starts affecting pigs, it's going to then affect goats and sheep and all cloven-hoofed animals.00:26:53:22 – 00:27:19:02Athol Trollip:And we will start seeing infections in game across the country in areas that have never been endemic areas, like the Kruger National Park.Now, this is why this is such a travesty.I believe it's a travesty because we have a minister who's dug his heels in because he has listened to incompetent people in his department.I sit in these meetings with these officials who speak as if they have read something out of a textbook but have no direct knowledge.And they keep informing the minister that they're on the right track.00:27:19:02 – 00:27:38:21Athol Trollip:You cannot be on the right track if your target is to vaccinate 80% of the animals in this country by the end of the year and you've only vaccinated 3.8 million.You now have a stockpile of vaccines, but you're refusing to give them to the people who can administer them.00:27:38:23 – 00:28:00:17Athol Trollip:We could get ahead of this curve in the next six weeks, Alec, if they just gave the vaccines to every co-operative in this country and allowed farmers to go there, collect their allocation, account for it - because they all have tracking systems on those bottles - vaccinate their animals and conduct surveillance themselves.Because it's in their very best interests.00:28:00:17 – 00:28:24:05Athol Trollip:Not like an official who works for the department.With an animal owner, it's personal.For those officials, they'll still be here next week.They'll still be here after the next Minister of Agriculture comes into office because they are full-time employees of the department.00:28:24:05 – 00:28:51:06Athol Trollip:But what you can't have is a minister forever blaming the former minister and the minister before that for what happened at Onderstepoort.When he became the minister, he said he would investigate why R500 million went missing and why Onderstepoort was allowed to fall into complete disrepair and lose the ability to produce vaccines.00:28:51:06 – 00:29:14:12Athol Trollip:Then the minister promised that this same Onderstepoort would be producing 20,000 vaccines a week.We're not seeing those vaccines being rolled off the production facility.And we're not seeing a profound difference in management and accountability at Onderstepoort and the Agricultural Research Council.00:29:14:12 – 00:29:50:01Athol Trollip:So if you don't fix the cause and you're forever addressing the symptom, you're never going to come to the end of this war against foot-and-mouth disease.And it is a war.Speak to any farmer whose livestock has been infected.Initially, when there was strict control of disease management areas - which the department has now done away with - those farmers were confined to zero income for up to half a year.00:29:50:03 – 00:30:12:04Athol Trollip:How does any organisation survive on zero income?How do you pay staff?How do you feed your livestock?How do you water them?How do you send children to school?How do you pay your Land Bank loan?You can't do that.00:30:12:06 – 00:30:32:13Athol Trollip:So I'm afraid the anger and resentment that has built up in the farming community is of the minister's own making.Time will tell whether it will have a profound political consequence.But I believe it is going to have a political consequence for the minister, certainly, and his department, which indirectly means the national government.00:30:32:13 – 00:30:59:19Athol Trollip:But it's the Government of National Unity and their partners in that government.The DA is one of those partners, and the minister is a DA minister.Let me give you another very raw perspective of politics.As the GNU starts fraying - and it is fraying - and fingers get pointed at various ministers, the ANC are going to point fingers at Minister Steenhuisen with alacrity.00:30:59:21 – 00:31:18:07Athol Trollip:They're going to blame him.They're going to say, "This minister dropped the ball."They're going to say, "If we had one of our own ministers, we would have been on top of it."And they'll say that only when he became minister did this disease get out of control.00:31:18:08 – 00:31:39:19Athol Trollip:So there is going to be a massive political consequence for John Steenhuisen as minister, but I believe also for his party.Because I think his party could have put a lot more pressure on him to say:"Listen to the people out there. The farmers are angry with you."00:31:39:21 – 00:32:02:02Athol Trollip:Can't you just get the vaccines into the outlets where farmers procure all the other veterinary supplies?Get the vaccines into the fridges.Let the farmers arrive with their cooler boxes, pay for them and administer them.At one stage he was talking about biological warfare.What a load of nonsense.This is a dead vaccine. It's not a live vaccine.You can't commit biological warfare with a dead vaccine.00:32:02:03 – 00:32:19:15Athol Trollip:What does commit biological warfare are crows, vultures, nocturnal animals that feed on carrion, and infected animals moving around.That's actually biological warfare.The only way you can contain that is by vaccinating those animals so that they don't contaminate others.00:32:19:15 – 00:32:35:00Alec Hogg:What a fascinating subject - and a very tragic one as well.Athol Trollip, thanks for giving us your unique perspective.Given that you are a man of the land, and as you say, a sixth-generation farmer, it's in your blood and you can see the passion coming through.I'm Alec Hogg for BizNews.