Celebrate entrepreneurs: the innovators, creators, builders – Dr Thami Mazwai
Among the many blessings of living in South Africa is an ability to engage with real life heroes. Men and women whose moral fortitude thrust them into really tough places during the Apartheid Era. Thami Mazwai is among them. A former journalist who shared a cell (and hard labour) with now President Jacob Zuma, Mazwai remains a passionate being. Grateful that Democracy has arrived in SA, but concerned at a culture which remains weighted towards the oligopolies that dominate the economy – instead of a desperately required celebration of entrepreneurs. He came into the Biznews studio this week. And left after giving us plenty food for thought. The transcript is down the page. You can also download the interview for later listening on your phone, ipod or computer by clicking on the Download button
ALEC HOGG: In this Biznews Special Podcast a good friend of mine, Dr Thami Mazwai, is in the studio with us. Thami, it's lovely to have you here
THAMI MAZWAI: It's my pleasure, Alec.
ALEC HOGG: It's not often I get to sit with someone who's mentioned in a speech by the President. You and Jacob Zuma obviously go back a bit. It must have been a surprise for you to hear your name coming up there (in Zuma's speech celebrating the return of Independent Newspapers to SA).
THAMI MAZWAI: Yes, we were both prisoners at Leeuwkop Maximum Prison, and we then bumped into each other again at Robben Island. At Leeuwkop Prison, we were in the same cell, but at Robben Island obviously, we were in different cells. He was in Section A and I was in Section C, because we were studying. We were young and we were given an opportunity to study, but we used to bump into each other at the quarry where we all used to do hard labour.
ALEC HOGG: Those were not good days.
THAMI MAZWAI: Well, one can't say they were not good days. Those were the sacrifices that we had to make, in order to have the type of society that we have today. A society in which race is receding into the background, and Human Rights have taken centre stage, where all of us are able to say that we enjoy the same rights before the law and in Parliament etcetera. Obviously, the legacy of the past is going to be with us for a very long time. That is why I've decided to devote my life to small business development, because I believe that's the only way in which you can really catapult people into a productive life and being part of the economy, regardless of the role people will play. Some will play a very small role. Some will play a big role. Some will have huge assets to manage. Some will have small assets, but it all adds up, it gives us a vibrant economy, and it keeps everybody busy.
ALEC HOGG: It's a long way from journalism – from where you used to make a living in the past – but you're now working with Wits.
THAMI MAZWAI: Yes, I'm the Resident Executive at the Wits Business School, which means that I have a relationship with them but I'm basically running my own small business, which is in Enterprise Development.
ALEC HOGG: Thami, I often wonder when I look at the shining eyes of our people in South Africa, why we don't have more successful small businesses. Why our small businesses are struggling to really challenge, in even the medium-size and of course, the bigger ones. People often say the impediment is capital. What are your thoughts?
THAMI MAZWAI: Well, the story of small business is the story of Bafana Bafana, where you think you can just throw a lot of funds and resources and not have an appropriate strategy – a thought out strategy or a long-term strategy. Fortunately, the game has changed. It has changed completely. Small business is now taking centre stage but I think the past – and I'll use black economic empowerment as an example – when blacks were being introduced or being integrated into the economy, it was on the basis of people getting a stake of Anglo American, of Barlow Rand etcetera.
ALEC HOGG: Privileged people – elite people…
THAMI MAZWAI: There was nothing wrong with the strategy, except that it did not achieve what it was intended to achieve.
ALEC HOGG: What was it intended to achieve?
THAMI MAZWAI: It was intended to integrate blacks into the economy. Obviously, that type of strategy can only be accessed by a few people, those people who would be able to access or who would be able to have a relationship with the CEO of the company, etcetera. Those people with the big organisations would see them as being able to add value to their organisations. At the time obviously, the white businesspeople wanted political affirmation, so it was just natural, then that they would be looking at people with good ANC credentials, because these people were the ones who would add value to their organisations or would give them protection that they needed. Obviously, our economy at the time – and still is – was very highly concentrated. It is an economy, which is controlled. Every sector is controlled by one or two corporates and in some instances it's monopolistic and our economy is still highly concentrated. When we determined our small business strategy, we really did not factor in all these issues. I remember at our first conference on small business – the first of its kind in South Africa – it was hosted by Trevor Manuel and the main speaker was Nelson Mandela. Many overseas experts came – many NGO's – and they resulted in what then became the White Paper for the promotion of small business. What was significant about those early strategies was that the definition of small business did not include the informal sector. How then, do you talk of integrating when talking of small business, and you don't talk about the informal sector? Blacks were in the informal sector. The majority – 90 percent of blacks were in the informal sector, but that has been corrected. I was in the National Small Business Advisory Committee Council, and these are the things that we pointed out; that our definition of small business is out of sync with the situation on the ground. Since then, the situation has evolved and the DTI for all its faults has really been very progressive in addressing the issues of small business. The problem however, was that the DTI does not have what I would call…is not able to assert itself over the other departments on issues of small business. For example, you'd have the United Kingdom and Brazil, where the sector for small business in the UK or in Brazil…they control small business development across all ministries.
ALEC HOGG: But something is breaking down. I have a small start-up. Biznews is a start-up. We started seven months ago, and I felt exactly what many people who try to establish small businesses feel. The big corporations take a long time to pay. Government takes even longer to pay and as a consequence of that – as a small business – you're more likely to go bankrupt than you are to be able to sustain, because cash flow is all-important. It's almost like a mindset that exists in certain spheres that if it's a small business, they can be messed around. That's the practicality of the world. How do you address that kind of issue?
THAMI MAZWAI: Well, let me put it this way: it's the culture we've inherited, because we didn't have a culture of small business. Our economic culture is the big organisations etcetera, and so South Africa is thinking – even the black community – somebody in the black community is thinking of the economy…thinks of a very big organisation. Small business therefore, whether it's government or big companies, there's always been an afterthought of 'let's do something for these people'. I think there's no recipe as to how you can change that overnight. It's a question of working it on a daily basis, like what the government is now doing. We know they have this huge infrastructure program where there's a special component for small business. In that respect, you bring them in. For example, PRASA is doing a wonderful job with its Women in Rail program where they're integrating black women into the various sectors of the rail engineering industry, or the passenger-rail industry etcetera. It is therefore not a question of 'they're only being integrated – these people who are going to sweep the floor, assist cleaning companies, or catering companies'. They're being trained to make wagon wheels from companies that are going to make the windows and all parts of the train etcetera.
ALEC HOGG: That's huge progress, Thami.
THAMI MAZWAI: This is huge progress, and I think that there is mind change happening, but unfortunately, it can't be fast enough because small business is not a matter…. There are several components to any small business, but the most important component is the individual. I don't believe that all individuals have the same capacity in terms of entrepreneurship and being able to measure resources etcetera, so there are going to be those disparities.
ALEC HOGG: Indeed. Just to close off with, I was at the Discovery Leadership Summit on Wednesday where Nkululeko Nyembezi-Heita (you know Nku…she's very well known). She was one of the people on the panel talking about entrepreneurship and she said that she's now left ArcelorMittal and she's in a start-up. She's also the Chairman of the Stock Exchange. Everybody that she knows…all her friends say 'that's the Chairman of the Stock Exchange. That's fantastic, but what's this nonsense that you're doing on a start-up?' I guess if we can get that kind of culture changed, where the people who create the jobs – the people who actually grow the economy are exactly the people celebrated…
THAMI MAZWAI: Yes, there are people who take risks on the ground, people who are innovative, people who can see opportunities where others do not see any, and those are the people we have to bring into the fold. Those are the people… We cannot go on as we have been going because right now, we've taken every person out there to be an entrepreneur and that's a mistake we've made. Right now for instance, in Gap, we are now… When somebody comes in, we must first satisfy ourselves that this person is an entrepreneur, that this person is going to put shoulder to the wheel, that this person is serious with what he's doing, and that this person is not here because he's out of a job. We are going to spend millions developing people who want to be entrepreneurs because they are out of jobs, and when they get jobs, they just leave off everything and they become fulltime employees. You therefore have to be very strategic as to how you provide these business development services.
ALEC HOGG: Dr Thami Mazwai.
THAMI MAZWAI: You're welcome.