Eight weeks before the vote, Corné Mulder promised Alec Hogg a surprise. His Freedom Front Plus delivered its best result since 1994, but Mulder was more interested in what came next. He set out a three-party plan to run Gauteng's metros without the ANC, said it could be wrapped up within a week if a few personality clashes were settled, and drew a hard line: if the DA chose the ANC in Johannesburg, the FF Plus was out everywhere. He then went further, laying out a little-discussed constitutional route that could take South Africans back to the polls well before 2029. Mulder also weighed in on Helen Zille's soft words for Cyril Ramaphosa, ActionSA's township breakthrough, a disappointing night for Gayton McKenzie, and whether the party's Afrikaans name still caps its growth..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Alec Hogg (00:01): Well, eight weeks ago, Corné Mulder sat here in our studio in Hermanus and told me we were in for a huge surprise on the fourth of November. Well, the votes have been counted. The Freedom Front Plus, his party, is up from 2.34% to just under 3% of the national vote. That's by more than a quarter when you have a look at the percentage-point improvement.The ANC got its hiding, but ActionSA, which was level-pegging with the Freedom Front Plus five years ago, has more than doubled in size. MK, which didn't exist three years ago, is going to be running some councils. So was this the breakout? Or is the Freedom Front Plus the party that grows every year and never quite grows up? Corné Mulder is the longest-serving MP in the country, and he is with us.The number of votes that you got, Corné, was up 64%. So I guess on that measure, you have to be happy.Corné Mulder (01:05): Yes, absolutely. Good afternoon, Alec. Wonderful to be with you. The reality is that it's the highest percentage that we've received since our inception in 1994, and it's also the most votes that we've ever received. In the last local government election it was about 550,000 votes. This election it's 890,000 votes, so that makes a huge difference. And if you take it in terms of individual people that voted, the Freedom Front Plus received approximately 447,000 votes. That's the highest number of people individually that voted for the party. So we're very happy.At this stage there are still seven parties, out of the 500-plus that participated, that are represented in all eight metros as well as in all nine provinces, and the Freedom Front Plus is one of them. So that's excellent.Alec Hogg (01:55): What did you do differently to 2021?Corné Mulder (01:59): I think we repositioned the party, in terms of where we see ourselves, in terms of reaching out to all South Africans, and to make it clear what we stand for, and to say that you don't have to vote for any party for any other reason than the fact that you agree with its values and its principles and its policies. And I think that resonated very clearly, and I'm very happy about that.Alec Hogg (02:22): It is interesting to note, though, that the Communist Party, who came into their first election, ended up with more seats than you have, more council seats than you have. And they say they don't want to do any deal with you. No negotiations. It sounds a little bit like Herman Mashaba and Helen Zille. No negotiations with you on any councils in the country. So what gives there?Corné Mulder (02:49): We are absolutely devastated. How could they do that to us? It is shocking. As a matter of fact, the feeling is mutual. The reality is, I think it's good: for the first time we were able to count the communists in South Africa. They were always hiding behind the ANC's cloak. Now we know exactly what we're dealing with in South Africa, and that's part of the ANC breaking apart, and I think it's positive.Alec Hogg (03:18): If you just go to the area where you were very hopeful, Tshwane, both yourself and Cilliers Brink felt that you could together get above 50%. That didn't happen. What might have gone wrong there?Corné Mulder (03:35): Yes, well, as a matter of fact the opinion polls indicated that we would be around 8%, and we ended around 8%. But the polls also indicated that the DA would be on 44%. That did not materialise. The DA ended up with, I think, 35% or 36% of the vote, which is not sufficient, and the two of us couldn't take it beyond 50%.But the important thing is we predicted, and we said all along, that we are beyond the days where one party will govern alone. That's gone. And we were proven absolutely correct. In the only major metro, Cape Town, the DA did receive full majority, but for the rest, we said all along it's going to be coalition governments, nobody's going to reach a majority, and that's exactly what's happened in Pretoria, Tshwane, as well. We predicted that, and now it's up to parties to form coalition governments. And as you know, I believe in coalition governments, in good, stable coalition governments, and I think we can do that. There are approximately 140 councils throughout South Africa now. We will have to see how we can form coalition governments.Alec Hogg (04:40): 140 out of 231. So by far the majority. You're going to have to work together.Corné Mulder (04:43): Yes, that's the fact. Exactly, exactly. So we have to look at all the results and all the different permutations that are possible between different political parties, and see how we put stable government together. The emphasis is going to remain on the big metros to set the example, and specifically those three big metros in Gauteng.Alec Hogg (05:04): When I spoke with Helen Zille yesterday, she said it seems to be part of a maturing process, and that we should be very proud of the fact that we as a country are moving towards a model that usually takes democracies a long time to get to. In other words, coalitions.Corné Mulder (05:21): I absolutely agree with Helen, and I wish she would have said that before the election. Before the election it was a completely different story, when it was said we are going to have majorities everywhere, and, don't get involved in coalitions, prevent the coalition chaos. Obviously that was a scare tactic. It didn't really work, because yes, coalition governments can be a problem, and it can be chaotic, but we don't have to do that. We can put coalition governments together.As a matter of fact, I believe this result gives us a wonderful, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reset coalitions, because, rightly, the public are very sceptical about coalitions in South Africa because of things that were done in the past. But if we can act maturely at this stage, we can reset the whole coalition scene, and that's exciting.Alec Hogg (06:15): Before we go into the individual results, and I'd love to get your insights on where things are going to go from here, because so many members of our Tribe respect your thoughts in this area, I've got to ask you about your challenge to the DA about bringing the ANC in through the back door. It wasn't answered. They certainly did not say ahead of the election that they would not go into coalition with the ANC. And there are some pretty smart people now who say that could be on the table. What is your reading of it?Corné Mulder (06:49): Exactly. Exactly. That still remains a possibility, and I've said all along, and I stay with that position: if I can remove the ANC from each and every council possible, that's my first option. I want to see less or no ANC in government, and it's going to depend on how we put these coalitions together. The Freedom Front Plus is not going to play a role in bringing the ANC into any government, and I hope the DA will do exactly the same, and it's possible. There are absolute options and a possibility to take the ANC completely out of government in those ones that are very important.As a matter of fact, I think the election itself was basically a referendum on the ANC. And the pronouncement was very clear that the public do not want to see the ANC as part of government. That's why they are declining. They are now just above 30%, and that decline will continue.Alec Hogg (07:40): So let's start in Tshwane. Can you put something together without the ANC and somehow get ActionSA and the DA to work together?Corné Mulder (07:51): That's the best option, and technically the easiest option. If you look at the three big metros in Gauteng, and also in Gauteng you can include Mogale City, that is the former Krugersdorp area, and you could also include Emfuleni, that's the Vaal Triangle. Those five areas, including the three metros, can all be run exclusively by coalition governments consisting of the Democratic Alliance, ActionSA and the Freedom Front Plus. And I think if we can do that, we take the ANC completely out of government. MK gone, EFF gone, all other interests not involved. And I think that would be the best and the most stable coalition government.So if you look at Tshwane, for example, the DA ended up with 74 seats. They need 108 to elect a mayor and to govern. We can bring another 17 to the table, but that is not sufficient. On the other hand, it's basically ActionSA that will determine where we go in terms of government in Tshwane, and they were in a coalition involving the ANC and the EFF. The EFF basically collapsed in Tshwane. They went from 23 to 13 seats. MK is no factor whatsoever. So it will depend on how we construct this, and I'm optimistic that the best option will be DA, ActionSA, Freedom Front Plus.Alec Hogg (09:11): You've often been described as the adult in the room. It looks like you might have to play that role in Gauteng.Corné Mulder (09:19): I think you're right, and I'm busy with that at this very moment. I've had discussions with some of these parties already on that level.Alec Hogg (09:27): Are you confident that it can be done?Corné Mulder (09:29): Yes, I am confident that we can conclude this within a week. We can really conclude this within a week, but there are one or two obstacles in terms of personalities and problems. But if we can resolve that, we can put coalition governments together across South Africa consisting of these three parties. And my interpretation is that that is exactly what the public indicated in terms of how they would like to see us going forward. We can do exactly the same in Nelson Mandela Bay.Then you are talking about four of the metros already. Cape Town is already under the DA's control. eThekwini is a different ballgame altogether, and Mangaung and the others, Buffalo City, will be more difficult. But this model can be taken way beyond the metros into huge rural areas and rural suburbs, towns throughout South Africa. And I don't think we can allow interpersonal conflicts to prevent us from doing so, because the alternative would be that we keep the ANC in government, if we look at the other two options or the other two models that could develop.Alec Hogg (10:30): But both yourselves and the DA are involved in the government of national unity. So that would suggest that you are more affectionate towards the ANC than... OK, explain.Corné Mulder (10:43): No. No. The reality is that things change dramatically, and that's the beautiful thing about politics. Two years ago, when the government of national unity was formed, it was a completely different South Africa. We came out of the 2024 election with the ANC not reaching a majority, and there was a lot of enthusiasm that we could, for the first time, put together a government on national level being a coalition. A real coalition, where parties are listened to and where we can steer South Africa in terms of a declaration of intent of a government of national unity: to get the economy to grow, to get unemployment down. That was the whole aim.The question is, two years later, did we succeed in that? The answer is, unfortunately, no, we did not. And there are reasons for that. I think the biggest blame for that is the way that the ANC treats the government of national unity. They've acted after two years as if they have just co-opted other parties. They allow us in the executive to do our own thing, basically. But they've kept control over the economic side of the country, the finance side to a very large extent, international relations and all those things.So although these parties are co-operating in the government of national unity, I do not see that happening on local level as a possibility, because an alternative would be to create governments of local unity. Technically that would include the parties in the government of national unity, which would include the ANC, and bring the ANC back into each and every council throughout South Africa. We will not support that. We will not be part of that. So if the Democratic Alliance decides that's the option, count us out. I don't think that's in the interest of the public. I don't think that is what the people voted for. As far as I'm concerned, that is a model that will just allow the ANC in through the front door, never mind the back door.Alec Hogg (12:32): So if the DA does a deal with the ANC in Johannesburg, forget everything else, if they do that in Johannesburg, is that "count us out" for the Freedom Front in the whole country?Corné Mulder (12:41): Yes. Yes. The point is that one of the permutations could be that the DA sits down and comes to an agreement with the ANC, and says to the ANC, let the two of us go into government. That's still possible, and that will give them exclusive control as two parties in most of the metros: in Mangaung, in Buffalo City, in Nelson Mandela Bay, in Tshwane, in Johannesburg, in Ekurhuleni, I can continue. Not in eThekwini, basically.But they can do that. That's their decision. We will not be part of that. We will not participate in that at all. But the reality then would be that the public indicated that they do not want to see the ANC in government anymore. That's why the ANC is going down, down, down to 30%. If that is the model, I think the public must understand that someone then is throwing a lifeline to the ANC. And I think that will be the highest form of treason, as far as I'm concerned. We should not even think in those terms. We don't have to do that.From my perspective, I would say let's look at it from the other side. I'm focusing on 2029, the national election that comes when we can elect a new government, and it may be even sooner, as I've said in the past. What do we want to achieve in 2029? And if we are in agreement on what we want to achieve in 2029, we should not take any steps now that will take us further away from that kind of option. We should put things into place now that will take us exactly to where we want to be in 2029.Now the question would be, with the ANC down and out, why would it be to the betterment of South Africa if we give them a lifeline now? And why is it going to be different in making it possible for us to deliver and to bring service delivery to the people on local level? We can do that very much so without the ANC. If you put coalitions together between the Democratic Alliance, ActionSA and the Freedom Front Plus, we have the opportunity to turn things around in South Africa in these big metros, which are the heartland of South Africa's economy. We've got basically two and a half years to show the electorate how things can be done. And then we should not be surprised when the people vote for that at the national and provincial election.We've seen how the ANC collapses when they go into opposition. We've seen that. The Western Cape is the best example. I think in Cape Town they are now down to 13%, no factor or no threat whatsoever. They are not good at opposition politics. Now we've got a question. Do we want to assist them, give them a lifeline and bring them back into government in Gauteng and everywhere else? Or do we want to put them into opposition and start to rebuild South Africa? That's my option.Alec Hogg (15:29): Corné, I want to dwell a little on that early election case. If I'm a man from Mars coming and looking at South Africa, I have a government running South Africa as though it has a significant majority, running it, generally speaking, as it always has done for the last 30-odd years. That government now has only just over 30% of the vote. It does not have that right anymore. Yet, absent a collapse of that government, it's going to continue doing so for the next three years until the next election. Surely a man from Mars would say, hang on, something has to be done after these results.Corné Mulder (16:15): Yes, and something can be done. It will depend on what one's view would be. The first question would be: does anyone out there think that the ANC can self-correct? I don't believe they can. Is there anyone out there that believes we should give the ANC a tenth chance? I don't think so. They've had all the chances. They've messed it up completely, and they've made promises to different parties which they've reneged on. The trust level is zero. So what do we do? Do we just allow that to continue? Or do we start to rebuild South Africa?And the electorate clearly indicated what they prefer. They've indicated they do not want to see the ANC in government. And it's not as if we do not have an alternative. Remember, the other big difference was when we formed the government of national unity, the Democratic Alliance's biggest argument was: we have got no choice, we have to do this. Why? We have to prevent the doomsday coalition. Look at the bad MK and the bad EFF. That threat is gone. MK has, to a very large extent, been marginalised, basically to KZN. The EFF lost 600,000 votes in this election. They are down. So that specific doomsday threat no longer exists. We don't have to accommodate the ANC to prevent that. We now have sufficient numbers to put a government together of what I've called all along "the good people", and it can be done.If you look at the possibilities, there is more than one possibility to not wait until 2029. One would be a motion of no confidence in Parliament. That's an option. Then you'll have to bring that against the president, and he's got to resign. But he can basically just recompose the executive then. But there's a different option. I know it's a difficult one, and we are not there yet. I don't think anyone has applied their minds with regard to that. And that's section 50 of the Constitution.Section 50 of the Constitution is very clear that Parliament can dissolve itself. Parliament can adopt an ordinary motion with a majority of one. That's 50 plus one. That's 201 members who can adopt a motion in Parliament in terms of section 50 to dissolve Parliament, and then the president is forced to call a new general election on national and provincial level. That can be done, but there's a provision that says it can only be done after three years have expired since the previous term started. That means the 30th of May next year is three years, because the last election was on the 29th of May.So I'm not saying that is going to happen. I'm not saying that's going to be the option. But it is something that one can consider, if need be, if we have to reset South Africa in terms of what the electorate indicated. You see, we've got two different worlds at the moment in one government on different levels. The one is where the electorate, in the last election on national level, brought out the result that forced us into a government of national unity with the ANC. We now have a different set of facts, where the same electorate voted differently two years later, where they can form governments in the major metros and everywhere else without the ANC. So we've got this discrepancy between those two election results. Do we try to live with that for the next three years? Or do we use the opportunity to go to the electorate and say, well, give us an opportunity, and you put the government together now, which could be very much along the lines of what we saw in this local government election? And that can be a completely new ballgame.But that would be only after the end of May next year. And the irony is it will depend on a majority in Parliament. The ANC, with 154 seats in Parliament, cannot stop that. They cannot prevent that. But it would need the co-operation of other parties in Parliament, which I don't know if we will have. It would mean that MK and the Democratic Alliance and the EFF and us and ActionSA all support that. Then easily we go beyond 201 votes in Parliament.Alec Hogg (20:04): It would seem to make sense from MK and ActionSA's perspective, and you've said from your own as well, where you have all gained significantly, even the DA. But the DA does have seats in this government, and even though it's chafing, those ministers in government, they kind of like it. We've seen it. They kind of like being ministers. They like the blue-light brigades. Does that play a part?Corné Mulder (20:26): Yes, but... No, no, that's true, but we can never allow individuals, whoever they may be, in terms of personal positions or in terms of what is important to them, to determine how we take the future of South Africa forward. And if we believe in what we are doing, then there's no reason why we can't return after such an election to a new government of unity, or a new coalition, with the parties, and the power struggle or the power dynamics will be completely different. Parties who may now have one seat in the executive may return with four or five seats. And parties with five now may return with 15 seats. Who knows? But it remains an option, and I think we have to see how that goes.But then, if you want to move in that direction, we need to do the right thing at this stage. And the question is very basic. What is the right thing to do? Is the right thing to bring the ANC back into power? Or is the right thing to keep the ANC in opposition and form coalitions of other parties that can and should take us forward in terms of service delivery, in terms of getting the economy to grow, and set an example to the electorate?Because the important thing that one must understand, and that takes you a little bit to ActionSA: nobody saw that coming. Nobody predicted that. No polls picked that up. So how did that happen? And I think it's very clear what happened if you do an analysis of that. In Tshwane alone, ActionSA received 180,000-plus new votes. Those votes come from the ANC. In Tshwane, ActionSA succeeded in taking 27 wards from the ANC. So what does that mean? It means there were many people disillusioned with the ANC for various reasons. In the past, some of them opted not to vote. In this election, some of them still opted not to vote. But 180,000 of them in Tshwane decided they want to vote. They were not prepared to vote for the Democratic Alliance, but they were prepared to vote for ActionSA.So they clearly indicated that they are stepping away from the ANC. And the most important thing is those black voters, if I may put it that way, decided not to step away towards a more radical approach. They didn't go to MK, they didn't go to the EFF. They went to the other side, to a more moderate kind of approach, and they voted for ActionSA. So this gives us a huge opportunity, and we must not mess with this chance we've got. That could bring us to what I've mentioned earlier, a real reset of coalition governments in South Africa, to the benefit of the public out there. And we should use that. We should grasp that opportunity.Alec Hogg (23:04): There are two very important parts from the conversation I had with Helen Zille that I'd like to bounce off you. The first is the rise of ActionSA, which she put down to an aggressive anti-immigrant campaign from Herman Mashaba. Your thoughts on that? Corné Mulder (23:22): That is surely one of the reasons why, and we have to understand that, and we have to take note of that, that that is the sentiment that is obviously among South Africans, and they played into that, and that's one of the absolute reasons. But to use that as the only reason why people voted for them would be an underestimation, I think, of what has transpired. But she's right, that was one of the reasons why people went to ActionSA in those huge numbers.Alec Hogg (23:53): And the second point was she was almost being sympathetic to the ANC. She said that we must not forget that Cyril Ramaphosa did give us the Zondo Commission, did give us the Madlanga Commission, and those have been very positive for the country.Corné Mulder (24:11): Isn't that what any president should be doing? Any president who is not in favour of corruption, who leads the country in the best interest of the people, should be doing that. I don't think we should say roses and happy-happy because he did that. That is what any president should be doing. I'm a bit concerned. It could create the impression, as far as I'm concerned, of trying to make provision that we have to assist, we have to protect, we have to accommodate the ANC.No, the downfall of this country, the falling apart of this country after 32 years, is on the scoreboard of the ANC. And I don't think we should go there and try to protect that and give them another lifeline. The voters indicated: no, we've had enough. And we don't have to. There's no threat of a doomsday coalition. And there are alternatives. We can put governments together without them. Let's do that.Alec Hogg (25:02): She also said that the secretary-general, Mbalula, had been very humble in defeat, accepting that they had to look internally, and that this was not something that happens in emerging economies. Generally in emerging economies, political parties that are in power don't like giving it up, much less looking internally.Corné Mulder (25:26): No, that's true. From that perspective, I agree that is absolutely true. Any real political party that is serious about its performance should do exactly that. A party should look at itself internally, and I think let's give the ANC credit for that. I don't think the EFF will do that. MK won't do that. So that's true.But once again, at the election results centre on Sunday evening, I did my observations in terms of body language again. The ANC went out of their way to make sure that they reach out in various ways to the Democratic Alliance. I saw Fikile Mbalula reaching out to Ms Zille. The president himself, in the last 15 minutes of his speech, was very presidential, and I applaud him for that. But the whole appeal was a different kind of approach: let's make things work together now, let's get closer. It's all good and well. I accept that. But only now, when the ANC is down and out. And one should decide: are you trusting this? Why should we trust this? Let them prove themselves. Let them go and look internally and come back as a better, purified kind of organisation. Then we can talk. But in the meantime, I think we should proceed with putting governments together without them.Alec Hogg (26:48): What are the chances of the DA taking the expedient route and actually getting together with the ANC? Because, as you said earlier, that would be a ticket to control, especially if there was a sweetie thrown in with a few more cabinet positions, perhaps.Corné Mulder (27:07): Yes, it will be a very strong option, but I predict that the DA will be committing suicide. But that's their choice. And the reason I'm saying that is this. The electorate indicated they want to see less of the ANC. Anyone that throws the ANC a lifeline at this stage may find themselves getting rejected by the electorate.As a matter of fact, interestingly enough, Solidarity and the whole Solidarity Movement, and I think they play a very important role in civil society, immediately after the election went to their support base and their membership and they had a poll. They asked their members how they would like to see governments being formed in Gauteng, specifically in those three metros, and they gave different options: an option of the ANC with the Democratic Alliance, an option with the ANC, the Democratic Alliance and ActionSA, and different options. But one of those options was governments by the Democratic Alliance, ActionSA and the Freedom Front Plus. And you can go and check the results. The result was that 95% of their members said that they prefer that option. 1% preferred an option of the DA with the ANC.So the DA must take their chances. They must make their decision. But I think it will be catastrophic, because I don't think that is what the public wants. I don't think that is what South Africa needs. This was a referendum on the ANC. And I feel sorry for them, if I may put it that way, that they are in the current situation where they are. But how did they get there? Whose fault is it that they got to this point? It's surely not our fault. It's surely not the DA's fault. It's surely not ActionSA's fault. It's their own fault.And part of that fault is because of their failure on local government level in terms of service delivery and all that it entails, but also with regard to the economy. People are suffering. They find it very difficult to make ends meet. Why? Because the economy is not growing. People are unemployed. And they stick absolutely fundamentally to their outdated ideological economic policies. So who's to blame for this? And I don't think we should assist them by giving them another chance. Let's show them how it could be done, and hopefully they can reposition and reset themselves, and then who knows what happens a year or two from now. Maybe they can make a contribution against a more radical kind of thing. But that is not where we are at the moment.Alec Hogg (29:27): It's interesting, the point that you make there was one that Prince Mashele made as well. He said whoever gets into bed with the ANC is going to be punished severely in the next election as a consequence of this, because he also reads the results the same way you do. Surely the team at the DA must be reading it in the same way. Or might they be blinded by the potential for power?Corné Mulder (29:53): I think they do read it. I think they do read it. I think they do understand the challenge, and I think they do understand what the right path is to follow. Let me give them that. I really think they do. But now we've got a problem. And the problem is personalities. And the problem of personalities is on the table from different sides, and we have to deal with that and find a way forward.Because, for example, in Johannesburg, we all know what is happening there. The elephant in the room is the reality that Helen Zille was hoping to get more than 50%. My information is that more than 200 million went into that campaign, and they didn't succeed. They didn't get anywhere close to 50%. As a matter of fact, and that is what people should understand, Zille ended with 34.78%. Ten years ago, in 2016, Herman Mashaba ended with 38% in Johannesburg. So what progress was there in ten years? And look at the amount of money that was spent, from private donations et cetera. So that's just the reality.So we have to find a way to come to some kind of agreement and find a way forward for Johannesburg. Now there are all kinds of personal clashes, it seems, and problems from the past. The same in Tshwane. In Tshwane, for instance, Cilliers Brink was the DA's candidate for mayor. Yes, the DA did get the highest percentage in Tshwane, but at this very moment the incumbent mayor is from Action Alliance... Sorry, ActionSA, my apology, my apology, ActionSA. And that is just a reality. And then obviously there's Ekurhuleni.I can't think for one second that if we bring these three parties together, the Democratic Alliance, ActionSA and the Freedom Front Plus, we will not be able to find a way to accommodate the reality of different individuals, different strong personalities, competent people who all want to serve. We have to find a way. We cannot allow that kind of reality to prevent South Africa from steering in the right direction and open the door for the ANC under the guise of governments of local unity. We cannot allow that to happen.Alec Hogg (32:04): Funny, though: if you went back ten years and suggested that this could be the consequence, I think you'd have been put into a loony bin. Just before we go, two last things. The one is Gayton McKenzie and the Patriotic Alliance. They were looking forward to this being a real breakthrough election for them. It didn't seem to have worked out that way.Corné Mulder (32:26): No, it didn't. With all due respect to my colleague, Mr McKenzie, they did not have a good election, and I know that. They did not make a breakthrough. They grew in the Northern Cape to a certain extent. The breakthrough did not materialise in the Western Cape at all.Talking about coalition governments, we are in discussions at the moment. There are 11 councils in the Western Cape where the Freedom Front Plus and the Democratic Alliance will form coalition governments, and we are busy talking to one another to see how we can put this together. And that could be the model with regard to ActionSA and others as well.But regarding the Patriotic Alliance, they did not make the breakthrough. And I saw this morning that their top body took a decision that the way forward would be governments of local unity. I understand that from their perspective, because if we do governments of local unity on the same recipe, it will bring the PA back into all governments where they are represented. And I can understand that from their perspective that's the way to go. But I don't think that is necessarily going to play out. We are surely not going to be part of that. We won't be part of that, because the circumstances changed dramatically in South Africa. We are not where we were in 2024, and the electorate made it very clear.Alec Hogg (33:39): Do you think that it hurt Gayton when he said on BizNews TV that he couldn't wait to give the final couple of percentage points to MK to run it eThekwini?Corné Mulder (33:51): Yes, I think it was not necessarily the best thing to say at that stage, because that is not what the electorate wants. One should have your ear on the ground and understand what the public is saying.And the interesting thing is this, and I predicted that before. I said, watch the Freedom Front Plus also in KZN. In KZN, we grew dramatically. We've now got two representatives in eThekwini, and they are going to play a role in the forming of that coalition government. And specifically also in the Western Cape. Broadly speaking, there are 17 municipalities throughout South Africa where we had zero representation in the past, where we are now represented. And in most of them we are going to see coalition governments, and we will be needed. So that is the beauty of the system: the proportional system brings that kind of balance. But then we have to make use of the mechanism to put stable coalitions together.And let me use this example. That's why I say there's a chance for a reset. In the past we had coalition governments in these big metros, whether that was Nelson Mandela Bay, whether it was Johannesburg, all of them. But those coalitions were unstable because we had to depend on seven, eight, nine political parties. It makes it very difficult with one-person parties. We now have the opportunity to put stable coalition governments there, of good people, consisting of three parties, maybe at the most four or five, I don't know. But for the three metros in Gauteng, we can put stable coalitions together with three stable political parties. I think we should do it. Let's do it.Alec Hogg (35:19): Corné, just to close off with: your party has done well, as you said, the best election you've had since 1994. But it's still called the Vryheidsfront. And the SACP still says we won't do any business with these guys. Isn't that putting a cap on your growth? Rob Hersov says he probably did vote for you. He said you align with his values. So you've got the values, but you've got a history which, for some people, is not aligned to their values. Is there any reset required on your side?Corné Mulder (35:56): I don't think there's a reset required. Yes, we are not only Vryheidsfront, we are also Freedom Front Plus. If you look at the ballot paper, you will find both names were there: Vryheidsfront, Freedom Front Plus. The abbreviation, to make it easy, was just VF Plus, for that purpose.But the party has moved on. We repositioned ourselves, and if you look at the past election in terms of support, we won a ward in one of the traditional rural areas in Manipeng. Councillors from other communities were elected under the Freedom Front Plus banner. The party is diverse, we are moving forward in that instance.But the important thing, and that's also very important in this election: the fact that we saw this outcome throughout the country indicates that the vast majority of South Africans are starting to move away from voting in terms of racial patterns, and towards voting in terms of values and policy positions which they are happy with. And I think that is positive, and in the end we will see in South Africa a division between policies: on the one hand the more conservative, Christian-aligned policies, and on the other hand more socialist, more liberal kinds of policies, or radical policies. That's the way.But the most important indication was that the people who are disillusioned with the ANC aligned themselves to the more conservative, Christian side of political parties, and not to the radical part. MK didn't get that support. The EFF didn't get that support. They left the ANC. Those things are positive, and we will continue to play a role in making that the reality of South Africa going forward. My plea would be: let's use this opportunity for a reset, working towards 2029, where we can form a new government and take the country in the right direction. Let's not give lifelines to people that brought us into this terrible situation. We will be very sorry if we do that. Let's not do this.Alec Hogg (37:47): Just to be an observer as we close off here: Frans Cronje said he believes there's a natural alliance between the DA, being the middle class, and the ANC, being the aspirant middle class. Is ActionSA moving into that area, the aspirant middle class? And I'll just give you something that Tony Leon said in our last conversation. He called it a switcheroo: ActionSA previously fought in the suburbs, but in this election it had gone into the townships. So it does appear that there could be some relevance to that theory. Is it worth considering?Corné Mulder (38:32): Correct. Is it true? Yes, it is, it's absolutely true. One must remember that about 50% of South Africa's population are people born after 1994. That's where we are now. So what happened was the vast majority of young black voters in the townships, they don't know a struggle ANC. They were not born then. They've got no allegiance to a struggle ANC. They only know a corrupt ANC, and they don't want to be part of that.And I think part of that is a new middle class in the black township community, and people who admire Mr Mashaba. He's not a product of black economic empowerment. He is the self-made man, and he's performed in that instance, and people are associating with that, and they say, well, why can't we be the same? So the 180,000 in Tshwane alone who went from the ANC, or from not voting at all, decided to go to ActionSA, and they feel comfortable with that.And I think that is part of a realignment in South Africa. We've said all along that in order to get progress in South Africa, the DA must go out and get the black, to a really large extent ANC, vote. We will bring other votes, and we will become a majority. And yes, I acknowledge that the Democratic Alliance did succeed in getting some more black votes. That's true. But it seems that ActionSA has done even better. So regardless, we are moving in that direction, which is constructive and positive: a shift of realignment, but not to the radical side, to a more moderate and conservative, positive side as far as I'm concerned. And that's quite exciting. Let's use this opportunity.Alec Hogg (40:04): Fascinating insights. And I love talking to Corné Mulder because he always gives us a point of view that is... I won't say he doesn't have a vested interest, because he clearly does. He has a political party. But he can see things a lot clearer than those who are boxing each other to try and control the country.The insights he has on ActionSA... Well, I'd just also remind you that Herman Mashaba stayed out of the government of national unity specifically to concentrate on what has now been hugely successful. On BizNews TV, we spoke to him often. On BizNews TV, he was telling us he's going to do well in this election. Well, he's proven the pollsters wrong, and we will now see whether or not he proves the cynics and the doubters wrong as well.The insights that you received today are, I think, giving you maybe the middle line between those two rather fractious thoughts, from Helen Zille on the one hand and Herman Mashaba on the other. But my goodness, isn't it a good time to be alive in South Africa, where we are moving in the right direction? Corné Mulder is the leader of the Freedom Front Plus. I'm Alec Hogg with your BizNews Edge..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.