Listen here.In their latest weekly chat, Chris Steyn and political commentator Solly Moeng talk about President Cyril Ramaphosa winning another round in his impeachment fight while the man waiting in the wings, Deputy President Paul Mashatile, has not been seen officially since July amid rumours that he might have been poisoned. “We don't have a president who's able to focus on governing, on leading, on uniting South Africa. We have a president who's running, who's constantly gazing over his shoulders...” Moeng also comments on the latest dramatic testimony at the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry as well as the apparent cover-up to protect 12 serving South African National Defence Force (SANDF) soldiers who had allegedly kidnapped an Islamic-linked financier and then assassinated the South African police officer who investigated them. Arguing against future majority rule by any one party, Moeng says: “Once the power gets launched in their heads, they become monsters we can't do anything about. Because what stands between what is good for South Africa and hell is the power that we tend to put in the heads of politicians, the trust, us treating them as heroes and heroines without ensuring that there are sufficient checks and balances in our institutions, in our system to make sure that as soon as somebody goes rogue on us, the system automatically stops them.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.336)While President Cyril Ramaphosa has won another round against his impeachment proceedings continuing as planned, the man waiting in the wings, Deputy President Paul Mashatilei, has not been seen officially since July, amid rumours that he might have been poisoned. With me is Solly Moeng, political commentator. Welcome, Solly.Solly Moeng (00:26.021)Hello, Chris. Always a pleasure to be here with you.Chris Steyn (00:29.336)Shall we start with the impeachment committee evidence leader, Advocate Madonsela having to be dropped because President Ramaphosa objected?Solly Moeng (00:34.959)Yeah.Solly Moeng (00:41.123)Look, the whole thing is a war of technicalities or of legal technicalities. I was talking to my own daughter who's studying law and she agreed with me that everything is about getting the best lawyers to find the best technicalities to use to save you from whatever. I mean, a lot of people, you know, pay these expensive lawyers. So justice is really in the end for those who can afford it. And in terms of this matter in Parliament, they ended up, you know, giving Ramaphosa what he wanted because he came up with the argument that they couldn't reject.But it's also interesting to see that… it's almost like there's a GNU team on the outside of what they call the progressive team on the other side. So the guys who are working with the ANC in the GNU often have to decide which battles they're going to find against the ANC, which battles they're going to not fight against the ANC because they also have their own interests to be worried about. If the journey were to fall apart, who really has to pay a price? Is it them? Is it South Africa? You know, it's extremely technical everything that is happening there. In the end, look, we have to wait and see where things go. I know that the Ramaphosa matter is happening in the High Court from today until the fourth. Let's see what comes out of it.Chris Steyn (02:09.645)Well, of course, it would suit certain factions if he were not impeached because they do not want Mr Mashatile to step into his shoes. What have you heard about his ill health?Solly Moeng (02:26.114)There's so much speculation. I think, you know, I wish to live in a country where there was obligation for public office holders, for politicians, for leaders in government to disclose their health status. I mean there are countries where it's important….you can't say it's a private matter if you are holding public office that requires you to deliver services to the people and you end up having HIV or cancer or God knows what else out there and that makes it hard for you to continue in your duties. I think we should get to a point where we say, Well, you have to disclose. No, you can't sit at home 'cause we've had people sitting at home for ten, even fifteen years or who are on sick leave but being paid and not enabling the State to fill those positions with other people. So we don't know what's going on with Mashatile. We do know that he's been absent since the eighteenth of July and government has been giving all sorts of explanations. One day they say he's busy with, you know, SADC obligations and there is speculation about poisoning, about ICU, about minor surgery. So, this is the problem, right? Because in a country like South Africa where so much has happened, so much continues to happen, when you don't share the real truth, you're leaving the space to speculation. And that's why this is where we are at. And people have died of mysterious poisoning in the past. People have died of mysterious ill illnesses, short illnesses, long illnesses. I've seen some of the videos of him while he was still in public. There were times when he didn't seem too well. But we can only speculate until they tell us okay, this is what's going on with the men. We cannot blame people for putting stuff out there that could or could not be true.Chris Steyn (04:23.085)Talking about ill health, the saga of Lieutenant General Faroz Khan.Solly Moeng (04:31.17)That man is doing everything, you know, to…it seems like he has a lot of energy to brief his lawyers to do all sorts of things, you know, but he doesn't have enough energy to come and appear. I mean, there's no way that all of these things that are being said to the commission - he even refused to appear in his own disciplinary hearing inside his organisation - it's not possible that these guys are just imagining these things. They are briefed by him, they're spending a lot of time with him. Surely the time that he spends briefing his lawyers, he should be able to stand in front of the commission and account to the people of South Africa, It's very clear that with all the allegations against him, I mean like this man is a police officer, okay, he's a senior police person, a Crime Intelligence official. He's said to own more than thirty million rands in wealth, a lot of cars and he's been implicated in participating in attempts to stop major drug busts or maybe he benefited or maybe he enabled or maybe… again another area where we have to speculate because the man at the centre of it all lacks the courage, the will to respect South Africans to come up and say, Okay, this is what happened.I really do hope that they get to the point where now with all these specific, you know, deadlines given to him by Madlanga, he has to appear. If not, he has to be independently examined by somebody who'll come back and say, Well, this man is you know taking you for a ride or he's telling the truth. These are the facts. Either way, the truth must come out and set him free or not.Chris Steyn (06:17.133)But he can't continue to cover for himself - and we know that if he does appear before the commission they will not let him get away with half truths.Solly Moeng (06:26.638)Yeah. Look, it's just a matter of time. I think he's going to have to come unless he gets somebody to shoot him in the heart, God forbid. You know, I mean like again, the thing is I don't. I don't understand why people allow so much speculation to happen around their situation. When they can simply come out and say, Let me tell you the truth, this is what it is. The fact that he's running away from all of these hearings inside his organisation and outside means that he has something to hide. I mean what else can we say? And POPCRU, I mean…welll trade unions in South Africa are not very well respected because a lot of times…they defend the indefensible a lot of times. Everything about this man specifically says he needs to come out and account to the people of South Africa…. and I'm very happy that they lost the case, if they see the need to protect him, to shield him from telling us the people the truth, then they too must be looking into the mirror and acknowledge what they see.Chris Steyn (07:27.981)It will be interesting to know who pays his legal bills or whether he's funding it. Maybe he's funding it himself.Solly Moeng (07:32.984)Well, thirty thirty million rents or more. Yeah, yeah.Chris Steyn (07:27.981)From the South African Police Service rot to the South African National Defense Force rot, apparently there's a huge cover-up….Chris Steyn (07:57.513)…ongoing. Twelfth serving South African National Defence Force soldiers kidnapped an Islamic linked financier and then assassinated the South African police officer who investigated them.Solly Moeng (08:11.992)Yeah, this is truly worrying. I think we have been led in South Africa by a government that has decided on too many cases in over too many years what we can know, what we cannot know. Again, we are in the area of speculation. Maybe this is the speculative country. I mean, if people get killed who are serving the State, we need to know what they were doing, where they were and what the purpose was. Where is it, where is it?Why is it that South Africans cannot be told this is what's going on: this is what happened, it shouldn't have happened, this is what we could have done to make sure it doesn't happen. But we're not being told any of it... So what interests were they serving? What interests were they protecting when they found themselves where they were? And what are the links between outside interests and the State that is meant to be leading South Africa? Whom is being served? Is it outside interests? Is it in the interest of specific politicians out there using State resources like the army, or or is there something else actually that's sufficiently sinister? But if the truth is not what we think it might be, then somebody needs to stand up. The Minister of Defence needs to stand up and say this is what happened.Chris Steyn (09:28.033)Well, apparently she is funding their defence. Unbelievably, two of them have been promoted, six of them are apparently being hidden in a military base, so that the police cannot arrest them and the police cannot go onto the base to arrest them or the bases to arrest them because they fear that there will be a gunfight.Solly Moeng (09:46.511)Yeah. I think the media must dig. I hope the independent media digs deeper into this thing, and that they come up with the truth. But I also hope that as we, you know, go into more and more elections, we get to a point where we don't invest too much power into the hands of the same people. We've done it for thirty two years and this is what happens, you know. They get to the point where they don't think they serve the people or the republic, the interests of the republic.We need to get to a point where there are more voices around the table that don't have to defend each other or defend the indefensible against the best interest of the country. Right now we're seeing the dying days, I hope, of the guys who've been dominating our politics over the past thirty two years. And I hope that we never get to that place again.…people keep saying maybe we need this other party, say the DA, to take over. I don't think so. I don't think any one party should dominate a country as diverse as South Africa. We've been there before. They start all nice: speaking well, dressing well, you know, saying all the nice things. Once the power gets launched in their heads, they become monsters we can't do anything about. Because what stands between what is good for South Africa and hell is the power that we tend to put in the heads of politicians, the trust, us treating them as heroes and heroines without ensuring that there are sufficient checks and balances in our institutions, in our system to make sure that as soon as somebody goes rogue on us, the system automatically stops them. That's the discussion that other people should be having.Chris Steyn (11:20.183)Talking about assassinations in diplomatic circles, South Africa, you know, is referred to as assassination nation. Diplomats say they've never seen this level of political assassination.Solly Moeng (11:30.723)Yeah, it's very sad. It's absolutely sad…we're treating all these assassinations that are happening - and usually they happen as we had towards elections, right? - because the entry level, the qualifications into politics in South Africa are very, very, very low. Anyone can go in there or lots of people who want to go in there and have their chance to eat, right? So they will kill one another. We've seen people within the same political party killing one another because this one apparently is preferred for the position or prefers themselves for the position that will enable others to eat…And the justice system is, as we see in the Madlanga Commission, but basically everything is rotten. They say the fish rots from the head. This is where we are at and outsiders are saying, are looking at us and to say, but how in the world do you live in a country where there are so many assassinations in such a short period of time? And like we talk about it and we move on to something else the next day, this is where we are in South Africa.Because the people right at the top, the head, you know, they're also chasing their own legal battles. We don't have a president who's able to focus on governing, on leading, on uniting South Africa. We have a president who's running who's constantly gazing over his shoulders because there are legal issues facing him. Phala Phala is not going anywhere…. all of that takes away his focus from being a leader of a country that was historically divided, that needs to be led and united, despite its diversity. He's not able to do that. So…iit's everybody's chance to eat, everybody…whoever gets killed gets killed. We have the story of the ambassador, you know, in yeah.Chris Steyn (13:29.802)We spoke about former police minister Nathi Mthethwa mysterious suicide. Now I understand that while the South Africans are complaining that they have not received the report, the investigations report from the French, they have not actually officially applied to receive it. Maybe they don't want to get it because then they would have to make it public. Then the country will find out why. Mr Mthethwa killed himself.Solly Moeng (13:57.217)Exactly. Yeah, it seems like there's a thing called legal mutual assistance, right? Which governs the process that must be followed by say in this case the South Africans must officially formally request the French to share the outcome of the report of the investigation or as to on where what led to the death of Nutter.Solly Moeng (14:25.848)They haven't done. South Africa has not done so. South Africa has sent police, apparently two police officers to France. So there was a police police assistance collaboration at that level as part of the investigation that happened. The French finished their investigation. They went to the widow of the former ambassador to say, Okay, this is our investigation outcome, this is what happened there. But there has not been a formal…in the same way that when you want to extradite somebody from a country, you can't just wait for that country to send them to you, you need to formally ask for the person to be extradited. South Africa in this case has to formally request France for a report, in terms of this mutual legal assistance. It has not done so. So South Africa cannot sit there and claim that France is denying it of something. I mean, you know, that's what seems to be happening out there anyway. South Africa must come out and say, Well, we have asked for this or officially asked for this report. France has said no. Then we can have a different conversation. For now, they are claiming they didn't give it to us… did you ask for it?Chris Steyn (15:33.869)Hm. The Madlanga Commission of Inquiry into political and police capture is going into recess. I think the commissioners must need a break really desperately, but how about the level of corruption that's emerged from KZN SAPS?Solly Moeng (15:52.601)Yeah, it's absolutely terrible. Look, it's almost I think many South Africans would love to see the mandate, the terms of reference of this commission expanded because you know, it's hard for many of us to imagine a commission that has delivered as much as this one has.I'm beginning to wonder from time to time if even Ramaphosa, who is the president in terms of the Constitution, who determined their terms of reference, saw this coming? Did he see this coming or not. But then what happens after this? I think so much has come out. And everything that has come out basically points to everything being a tip of the iceberg. It's just a visible part of the massive toxic iceberg. KZN has always been known for political assassinations. People have gone on for too long, factionalised, protecting their own friends, benefiting. We don't know who has been forced to do things because they were blackmailed, you know, they were afraid of being, you know, either for themselves or their families, their kids, their loved ones being attacked. We don't know that. I think that people have to come out. We need to find a way to make sure that beyond the life of this commission, and hopefully, you know, a lot of cleaning up would have happened, there is a chance for South Africa to say it is not just a matter of appointing the right people. It's a matter of ensuring that we have the right checks and balances. I mean if you look at Lebeya’s testimony for instance and him saying I didn't know, I didn't know, I didn't investigate this guy. I didn't get him. I didn't need to subject him to a lie detector because…he's basically everything is: I didn't know, I didn't do anything. He's denying, denying when we should have a system that says when X happens you should do this. And he didn't do that stuff.… these senior people are defending themselves against possible prosecution. But it's very clear. It's very clear that they have failed in their duties, they have failed this country, they didn't deserve to be in those positions. And I think that we need to think really carefully, not just about faces but about conditions for employing people and at basic levels of qualification…Solly Moeng (18:13.614)…for people to get into those positions. It's not just about academic qualifications. Lebeya has got a doctorate and all that stuff. Many of them are very highly educated in all the other State owned institutions. How do we ensure that public interest is placed at the centre of all action? That's what we need in South Africa. So we keep so we need to stop saying, but they are getting all these unqualified people into positions. Well many people are qualified, but they’re unethical. They are qualified and they steal. They're qualified and they enable stealing to happen. So how do we ensure that we have more Madlangas, more of these people who say no, not in my nam…We need those Saddamicans who are able to say South Africa first. I may love my political party or my political bosses, but they cannot stand between me and what's good for South Africa. We don't have enough of such people in South Africa.Chris Steyn (19:16.745)Indeed. Thank you. That was political commentator Solly Moeng speaking to BizNews. I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Solly.Solly Moeng (19:25.966)Thank you, Chris.