In this interview Chris Steyn and Lisa Schickerling, the Democratic Alliance (DA) spokesperson on Police, talk about a country in the grip of fear in the wake of mass killings, multiple murders, crime increasing in areas where the SANDF have been deployed, and suspended Deputy National Commissioner of Police General Shadrack Sibiya on rape and sexual grooming charges. “The very people that are meant to protect women are the ones that are committing these crimes…So there's no trust in the SAPS. And if you as a female can't trust to actually phone the police and know that they're gonna come and assist you, then you really are on your own…” Shickerling describes how poor service delivery has further fuelled crime with roads so bad that not even taxis can use them, forcing women to walk long lonely roads without streetlights and hemmed by tall grass. “They live in areas where there's nobody patrolling, so there's nobody in the street except for obviously the criminal elements.” Asked about remedial actions being taken by Acting Police Minister Firoz Cachalia, she says: “...the problem that we have is that everybody comes with these grand plans and it's wonderful, but there's no implementation.”.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:02.104)South Africa is in the grip of fear, following mass killings, multiple murders, and general criminal mayhem. With me is Lisa Schickerling, the Democratic Alliance spokesperson on Police. Welcome, Lisa.Lisa Schickerling (00:17.878)Thank you so much, Chris, and thank you for having me on your show. I'm really looking forward to it and hi to all of your listeners.Chris Steyn (00:25.356)Lisa, fear is rising and faith in the police is diminishing. As spokesperson for the Democratic Alliance, do you have the opportunity to engage with acting Police Minister Firoz Cachalia?Lisa Schickerling (00:38.848)Yeah, so you know, we do have the opportunity to engage with him and I must say all the engagements that we've had with him….we recently had a meeting with him about the lack of calling on 10111. He's been very open to us and to our suggestions and he's very knowledgeable about what's going on in South Africa and it does sound like he has a plan. But the problem that we have is that everybody comes with these grand plans and it's wonderful, but there's no implementation. And that is the problem that we're sitting with. We keep being reactive instead of being proactive. And we need to come to a place in South Africa where we take a stand and we stop talking about things and we actually do something and fix them.Chris Steyn (01:23.214)I was just going to ask you, has the Acting Minister of Police implemented any actions since being appointed that have made a visible difference to the quality of policing in South Africa?Lisa Schickerling (01:38.755)I can't tangibly say yes and I also can't say no. I mean, as I said, you know, he has this turnaround strategy and it's great. But it hasn't been implemented properly. I mean we obviously welcome the fact that they deployed the SANDF under Operation Prosper into gang-infested areas. But truthfully they haven't made any difference. We know that in actual fact crime and murder in many of those areas has increased. So the question we have to ask is is that money that they're spending really worth it? And I don't think so. I've told them before that Operation Prosper is not prospering and that money can be much better utilised, making sure that the police have resources, that we have enough detectives, that we have boots on the ground, that our DNA backlog is cleared up. So there's a lot more that we can be doing, and resources most definitely have to be realigned with what is happening in our country. So while he has good intentions and he's very knowledgeable, the point comes when we have to actually implement. And I don't think that anything has been implemented as yet that is actually working.Chris Steyn (02:52.088)Meanwhile a tenth body has been found in Ekurhuleni. Do you know whether those crime scenes have been processed properly and whether DNA is being processed?Lisa Schickerling (03:03.946)So actually, Chris, there's an eleventh body that's been found. They found one yesterday afternoon too in a graveyard and and that's deeply, deeply concerning. I mean, women are already fearful in South Africa. To our knowledge, the crime scenes have been properly looked at. The DNA has been taken and we're awaiting an outcome. At this stage, we're waiting for the investigation. There's no clear evidence that any of these murders are connected. I mean we do know that the first murder was through - unfortunately - the lady's boyfriend and the one I think it's the ninth one, the two females were arrested and yesterday's one they also have a suspect that they were looking at. So you know I don't think that we we can say yet that they're all connected, but I also don't think we can come to a point where we say they're not connected unless they've properly investigated and come back and said to us, yes, well these are their findings. So it makes you worry about what's happening in our country.Chris Steyn (04:13.784)While we are focused on this cluster of bodies, there are also bodies of women being found in other places in the country.Lisa Schickerling (04:20.48)So that's the sad reality, you know, while I sympathise with the families of all the women that have lost their lives. I think as a female it's really scary and as a mother, you know, you worry about your children. And. we you know, you're concerned about it. But in reality, fifteen women lose their lives every day in South Africa. These are eleven women over a two month period. I mean, that's just literally, if I can put it so harshly, a drop in the bucket. But what about the other women that are losing their lives? What are we doing to protect them, to make them safer, to ensure that they can walk in the street at night, that they don't get abused, that they don't get killed in their homes? And most of these crimes are committed by somebody that they know or somebody that they live with, and that is what the most concerning thing is. Yes, we sympathise with everybody, but what are we doing to make women safer in South Africa? We keep having beautiful speeches and we stand in Parliament, and tomorrow we have another debate. But what actually happens? We're not making any difference in anybody's life, and that is what's really concerning to us is the DA and to myself as a woman because at most times my friends will tell me they're not safe in South Africa, they're not sure that they can actually phone the police and they're gonna respond. So there's no trust in the SAPS. And if you as a female can't trust to actually phone the police and know that they're gonna come and assist you, then you really are on your own.Chris Steyn (05:59.353)And there've been women who have gone to police stations against all odds, only to be raped there again.Lisa Schickerling (06:05.546)Yeah, so that is also a sad reality of what happens quite often is women go to report such a a terrible crime, something tragic that happened to them, and that they they get raped by a police officer in a cell or in a van. And you know, we have to get rid of those elements within the SAPS. There should not be a place in the SAPS for people that commit crime, especially not terrible crimes such as rape and murder. I mean I know of many women that have gone to the police station to take out a Protection Order. They've gotten the Protection Order and it was never served on the perpetrator, and they've actually lost their lives through that. They've never taken away their firearms, they haven't actually made sure that the person that has opened the case and received the Protection Order is actually safe. And we have to take a stand against those police officers. And if they're found guilty, they should be let go out of the South African police services.Chris Steyn (07:04.77)And then rape victims who have never had justice have had to watch the suspended Deputy National Commissioner of Police General Shadrack Sibiha being hauled into court on rape and sexual grooming charges.Lisa Schickerling (07:19.264)And you know that that again speaks about the leadership of the police. It again speaks about accountability. It speaks about who we actually have in the top management of our police. And I want to make it very clear that we have really good police officers in South Africa. There are really good cops that are really doing their work. They are working so hard. And you know I can see when I visit police stations or when I interact with them that they're tired. But they also lose faith in the police services and in the justice system when things like this happen because if one of your highest cops are actually found guilty or of of something like rape, you know everybody looks at the rest of the police officers and wonders, well are you the same? And I think that is something that's really disheartening. Women should be able to go to the police and they should be the ones that protect us. But the very people that are meant to protect women are the ones that are committing these crimes. And what's worse for me about General Sibiya is the fact - girls rape is is wrong on at all ages - but grooming a 16-year-old and raping an 18-year-old is a heinous crime and if he is found guilty then I think he should get the harshest sentence that there is. And we're not saying that he is guilty. Obviously the court proceedings must still take place. But should he be found guilty he must receive the harshest sentence and be fired.Chris Steyn (09:03.618)Let us talk about the mass killings. Over a hundred and twenty people already this year.Lisa Schickerling (09:10.7)Crazy. It's scary. Sixty people get killed in South Africa every day. And it would be quite interesting for me to see the new statistics because we've seen that there's quite a lot of mass killings. I mean, there's two that took place this weekend. Twenty-seven people have lost their lives, twenty-six people were injured. What are we doing about that? Why are we not getting the firearms off the ground? Why is Crime Intelligence not doing what they should be doing? Why are they not making sure hat South Africa is a safer place?And you know, that's a massive concern to us. You know, it's not getting better. And until we make people's lives better and ensure that we can stop these tragedies and strengthen our justice system and our whole service delivery chain, I don't think things are gonna get better. And you know, it's concerning when you wake up on a Sunday morning, and you read that so many people have lost their lives. Where was the police? Why didn't they know that these things are happening? You know, we can't just carry on with such things and keep quiet. South Africans want to know what's going on. They want facts. They want to know that the police are fighting for them. And obviously, we know that the extortion and criminal networks in our country are growing massively, and we must dismantle these criminal networks. We have to make sure that we take the illegal firearms out of the field, that the criminal networks, including gangs and extortion gangs, and organised violence and crime is dismantled. And until such time, I can't see us actually growing our country and making sure that it's a safer place.Chris Steyn (11:05.388)And on top of that there is a crisis at the Private Security Industry regulatory body as well. There has been a police raid.Lisa Schickerling (11:14.784)Yes. So I mean we've spoken about the PSiRA since last year. As a matter of fact, I think in September last year we already asked that the CEO and the CFO be put on precautionary suspension due to the hundred and thirty million Rand that is just missing. And you know, when we did speak about it, they said to us they'd opened a court case or they'd opened the case and it was going to court and they were investigating and that they were potentially gonna get some of the monies back. But that has not happened. And yet the CFO and the CEO are still sitting there. They should be placed on precautionary suspension so that they don't interfere with anything. And again, I want to say we're not saying they're guilty, but to protect the process and to make sure that everything is done correctly, they should be removed from the building. There's a lot of paperwork that they were supposed to hand in, and they didn't do that, and that is concerning to us is why didn't they give the necessary paperwork. Why did the SIU and the Hawks actually have to go and raid them before we had an outcome? I mean, the PSiRAboard has been disbanded a few months ago already. I think it's more than a year ago. So there is no board. Who is actually in charge of PSiRA and what are they doing? Because the private security regulator has over 400,000 security guards. I mean, that is so much more than police officers in South Africa. I think at this stage, two million security guards are actually working. So if you look at the private security in conjunction with the SAPS, the private security plays a very big role in South Africa and we have to make sure that the regulatory body that is in charge of them is actually operating legally and that they are above reproach and they're not part of corruption in our country.Chris Steyn (13:09.154)With all the talk and all the plans and the lack of implementation, that is what South Africans have come to rely on, private security, if they can afford it.Lisa Schickerling (13:18.049)Yes. That's the sad reality, you know, is most South Africans cannot afford private security and they depend on the SAPS. So oftentimes private security will jump into areas and try and help where they can if people are actually not members of the security companies and they do try. But the problem in our country is the majority of South Africans don't have access to private security. They don't have the funds to pay them, and they're reliant on a South African Police Service that is under-resourced, who have certain elements within them that are corrupt.And we have to make sure that we strengthen the South African Police Service so that we can have a country that is safe for everybody, and actually a country where you don't need private security. I mean, you can drive anywhere, and you'll see the security is beefed up in certain areas. I mean, there are cameras up everywhere, you see fences going up, you just see security guards in vehicles everywhere and that's great. I mean we are creating jobs and we welcome that. But we want a South Africa where you can actually pick up the phone and speak to a police officer and you don't have to wait three or four hours before they come to you if they answer the phone. Let me just put it that way. And if they don't tell you they don't have a vehicle, they can actually come and assist you.Chris Steyn (14:45.294)Mm. But so many areas in South Africa have no policing or private security coverage. So as a woman, you take a taxi home up to a point and then you walk the dark streets alone because on top of that the street lights are not working. Or if they are streetlights,,,Lisa Schickerling (14:59.436)If there are streetlights. So you know, I obviously we travel a lot through the country and you know you speak to people and one of the biggest things I've I've seen in the last few months is due to the lack of service delivery and the breakdown of our municipalities is that in many instances the roads are in such a bad condition, they're not hard anymore, so the taxis cannot drive there. So you have to walk a lot further to get to your house. The street lights are not working because they haven't been working for months, or the high mast lights, the cables have been stolen out for copper. So it's dark. They live in areas where there's nobody patrolling, so there's nobody in the street except for obviously the criminal elements, and people don't have the funds to put up burglar bars to make sure that they have gates on all their doors. They often get home, doors are already broken down. So the breakdown of service delivery in our country. I mean there it's dirty, there's dumping, this grass is this high, you can't see if anybody's hiding. That is most certainly contributing towards the criminal activity in our country and it's making our country a lot less safer. So if we can just get those basics right, we're already making sure that people are safer in their environment.Chris Steyn (16:25.55)Hmm, I saw in Ekurhulenii grass as high as a human being. You could hide a whole gang in there and women have to walk past there.Lisa Schickerling (16:35.008)Yeah, so you know, I wanna use a simple example of a graveyard that we have. I I live in Kimberley, a graveyard we have in Kimberley. I mean the graveyards in our country are really in a despicable state. So I mean that it's actually heart sore that you've buried your loved ones in an area that looks like that. But the grass is literally, as you said, as high as a person. It looks terrible there and it's right next to a school. And when I was walking there the other day they said to me that oftentimes beggars and street people pull off the girls that are coming out of school into that that graveyard and they they actually molest them and rape them in that area. And it should never be that way. I mean, if you just clean your environment and the municipalities do what they're supposed to do, you're already creating a safer environment. So people need to ensure that your municipalities function and that there's good governance because that already cuts out certain criminal elements.The people that scratch in the rubbish, in the black bags, they actually take a lot of the rubbish bags to areas like that, and then they go and hide in those areas. So I don't think we even know how many people are hiding in that long grass. And you obviously, you know, as a female, when you walk past there, you are afraid, but you don't have any other options because that is the only way that you can get home. So, you know, it's it's sort of like a Catch 22 do I or don't I. But if you have to get home, you have to get home.Chris Steyn (18:12.93)As the DA in the Government of National Unity, what can you do? What else can you do?Lisa Schickerling (18:19.53)So I mean I think there's a lot of discussions between our ministers and obviously the other ministers. I know there's a lot of talks between our leader, Acting Minister Cachalia, our Minister of Home Affairs, Leon Schreiber, to see how they can strengthen borders, how they can help. And obviously, we're very fortunate that we have Ian Cameron as the Chairperson of our Committee. And I mean, he's incredibly knowledgeable. He does a phenomenal job, and a lot of changes get implemented through the committee. So, you know, from our side that serve on the committee, we really try to bring in changes that will make South Africans' lives easier and make sure that we live in a country that's a lot safer for everybody. And fortunately, as I said, through those kinds of people that we have in those areas, they will push for change from the Democratic Alliance's side. And we are busy re-looking at the Policing Bill, some members' bills that we would like to bring in, some changes to legislation that we can we that we've suggested that will will help the normal South African on the street to live in a safer country and not have to look over their shoulder every time. And then obviously, you know, we've got good gun laws in our country, and we must just strengthen our Firearm Act. And I think we've got a really good act as it is. There's some changes that we have to make, but we can't take away firearms from lawful firearm owners because it's not those firearms that are causing problems in our country, it's the illegal firearms, and those are the firearms that we have to get off the street. Legal firearm owners are protecting themselves, and we can never ever make sure it allows the laws to take the firearms away from them because we already live in an unsafe country. So that is something we will fight very hard for to ensure that lawful firearm owners retain their../Lisa Schickerling (20:24.772)…their firearms and that we fight to get illegal firearms off the streets.Chris Steyn (20:31.192)Thank you, that was Lisa Schickerling, the Democratic Alliance's spokesperson on Police speaking to BizNews, I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Lisa.Lisa Schickerling (20:40.652)Thank you..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.