Listen here.In his latest interview with Chris Steyn, former Western Cape Provincial Police Commissioner, Dr. Lennit Max hails the appointments of four new provincial commissioners. “This time around I am very pleased that the Acting National Commissioner in her wisdom decided that there's merit among people of colour.” He points out that all four appear seasoned as well. “Lieutenant General Sizakhele Dyanti in the Western Cape, got 34 years of service. Lieutenant General Arthur Adams, Northwest, 34 years of service as well. Lieutenant General Jan Scheepers, Limpopo, 38 years of service. And Lieutenant General Apapia Modise of Mpumalanga, 37 years of service. They are not people who are parachuted into those ranks.” As for the latest "heartbreaking "testimony at the Madlanga Commission, Dr Max says it is “damaging not only for Andrea Johnson, but to IDAC as a whole, the NPA, but most importantly, to government because government put these systems in place to ensure that they address the corruption in this country and we as citizens got hope that government is doing the right thing to put these systems in place and also to appoint people they believe got the necessary skill and commitment to serve our country without fear or favour. And it is totally unacceptable, and I think there must be consequences to that effect.” Lastly, Dr Max shares highlights from his autobiography which is being launched this month: “A Life That Refused to Bow”. .Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.198)Four new provincial police commissioners have been appointed as the South African Police Force embarks on a big reset. With me is former Western Cape provincial commissioner, Dr. Lennit Max. Welcome, DrDr Lennit Max (00:16.445)My pleasure.Chris Steyn (00:18.178)Doctor, 4 appointments. Lieutenant General Arthur Peter Adams in Northwest, Lieutenant General Jan Scheepers in Lumpopo, Lieutenant General Sizakhele Dyanti in the Western Cape, and Lieutenant General Apapia Modise in Mpumalanga. Are these merit appointments?Dr Lennit Max (00:53.67)Yeah, you can remember the last time when we spoke, I raised a concern which is very serious to me with regards to our Rainbow Nation approach and that we can't leave certain race groups behind. Because at the time, all nine provincial commissioners were African. There were not a single Coloured, white or Indian among them as well as the National Commissioners Office with his deputies as well as his divisional commissioners. This time around I am very pleased that the Acting National Commissioner in her wisdom decided that there's merit among people of colour, colours as well as whites and to take this country along as a team to allow every race group…there's no Indian there, but to contribute to crime fighting in this country to make our country safer. So yes, in terms of the information which I gathered from the media, it appears to me that these provincial commissioners are seasoned police officers. For instance, Lieutenant General Sizakhele Dyanti in the Western Cape, got 34 years of service. Lieutenant General Arthur Adams, Northwest, 34 years of service as well. Lieutenant General Jan Scheepers, Limpopo, 38 years of service. And Lieutenant General Apapia Modise of Mpumalanga, she got 37 years of service. So that is...for me, you know, pleasing that they are seasoned. They are not people who are, you know, parachuted into those ranks. And I'm quite certain that they know and understand our community's needs and they will make use of the opportunity to ensure that the resources are…Dr Lennit Max (03:18.033)…distributed to the areas needed most. And I also hope, because there's a new phenomena in the police, that provincial commissioners nowadays acted as food soldiers on a daily basis and leading operations instead of empowering their deputies to do the job so that they can focus on the broader policing needs like human resource, the buildings, because we experience regularly that there is not proper and sufficient resources for the people who are conducting these operations. And a provincial commissioner is a strategic manager and not a foot soldier. He or she can often assist and be present, but they must empower their deputies to execute those duties. Otherwise, how are they going to measure and evaluate the cooperation and productivity of their deputy provincial commissioners?Chris Steyn (04:29.943)The appointments come at a time of shocking testimony at the Madlanga Commission of rot reaching into the top of law enforcement power. What do you make of the latest allegations and testimony?Dr Lennit Max (04:47.789)You understand it is, you know, heartbreaking for me as a former operational police officer still holding the rank of lieutenant general ceremoniously and associating myself with men and women in bBlue, those who are credible, those who are honest and loyal to the country and its constitution. It is a disgrace that we have actually seen the stories which came out during this Madlanga Commission. Certain police officers are in cahoots with criminal minds for their own benefit and are not focused on service delivery to the country.However, some of these allegations are also questionable with regards to the arrest made by IDAC, the Independent Directorate Investigating Corruption. Having noted the serious allegations against the head of IDEC, Advocate Andrea Johnson, that is absolutely inexcusable and there needs to be action taken because if you arrest somebody, it is an adverse infringement of that person's human rights. And especially in this case, where those arrested are police officers who are empowered…Dr Lennit Max (06:45.469)…and to serve the country. And they were actually then arrested on allegations of rogue charges. Do you know when Lieutenant General Mkhwanazi made these allegations that IDAC has a rogue group and an honest group? You know, I couldn't believe it that such a situation would exist in IDAC. But the latest testimony before the Madlanga Commission exonerates Lieutenant General Mkhwanazi. And, you know, and that is damaging not only for Andrea Johnson, but to IDAC as a whole, the NPA, but most importantly, to government because government put these systems in place to ensure that they address the corruption in this country and we as citizens got hope that government is doing the right thing to put these systems in place and also to appoint people they believe got the necessary skill and commitment to serve our country without fear or favour. And it is totally unacceptable, and I think there must be consequences to that effect.Chris Steyn (08:24.279)Do you think the new Reset agenda of the South African Police Force will go far enough?Dr Lennit Max (08:30.683)Let me say, you must have a plan. And my late father always said, my son, you can't get up in the morning and walk outside, get outside and then look at which direction the wind is blowing and then decide for the day what you are going to do. He said, when you open your eyes, you must have one. Maybe it might not be a good one, you know. So, yes, to fight crime, you must have a plan. And we have seen a lot of plans myself as provincial commissioner. I also had a plan, but those plans are not cast in iron because crime evolved. Criminalists are experimenting with new methods to overcome your plans and your strategies. So it is work in progress, I think.And I'm glad that the minister, the acting minister, I think at this stage I can say confidently that unless proven otherwise in future, that he is determined to change the culture in the South African Police Service and to reset also the focus of the South African Police Service on what matters most. And that is the safety and security of our people in this country. However, you know, the plan, as I said, we had several plans in this country, but crime, especially gang violence, continues to be a problem, a serious one. And...my concern is, although we've got all these plans, if gangsterism or gangsters don't fear consequences, then that is serious in addressing criminality in our country, especially gang violence. Because the more serious the crime, the more and higher the acknowledgement of the gang….Dr Lennit Max (10:51.853)…member within the ranks and they don't fear jail time. I recently and often also watch what is happening in El Salvador where they arrested gangsters with tattoos which associate them with a particular gang group and detain them.It is an adverse infringement of human rights. But we have to ask in this country what is more adverse and what is more important. Is the right of the gangsters more important than the right of innocent lives? The Constitutional Court in this country…made it plain that the most important right is the right to life as well as the right to dignity. And the reason for that is, and that is the argument, if you are not alive, you are not in a position to enjoy the other rights as enshrined in the Constitution.So, you know, I believe this morning I heard on DSTV 404 SABC that about 170 people were killed in the Western Cape in two weeks. That is more serious than the war in Ukraine and Russia. So, something needs to be done. We cannot say we have got plans. And even the Army has been deployed in the Western Cape. And there were expectations that the Army's presence will contribute to a reduction of crime. That did not happen. And, you know, some people may not agree with me in the past when...Dr Lennit Max (13:07.077)…those plans were announced, when I said I don't see any difference with the Army's deployment and it has been proven there were no, and currently there is no difference in gangsterism, especially Western Cape, Gauteng, as well as Port Elizabeth where gangsterism is infested in our respective communities.