Juanita Du Preez: Sibiya and Mchunu - The “Cat” is out of the bag

Another week of startling allegations of police and political capture by crime bosses have South Africans glued to their screen. Chris Steyn speaks to Juanita Du Preez of Action Society about testimony by Witness C who told the Madlanga Commission that tenderpreneur “Cat” Matlala told him that he had given suspended Deputy National Commissioner Shadrack Sibiya millions in cash and that he secretly paid R500,000 towards former Police Minister Senzo Mchunu's presidential campaign. They also talk about the former Police Minister’s alleged “friendship” link to “TK” Molefe, who is controversially on bail - despite being linked to at least 18 murders; the former Minister's move to disband the very unit involved in his arrest; the failure to arrest Tembisa Hospital looting kingpin Hungwani Maumela, the nephew by previous marriage of President Cyril Ramaphosa; Brian Mogotsi, the African National Congress “fixer” all the way back to the CR17 campaign seemingly on the run after being disavowed by the party; as well as Economic Freedom Fighters Commander-in-Chief Julius Malema once again being suspiciously absent from the questioning of an allegedly friend at the Ad Hoc Committee..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.881)South Africans have remained glued to their screens for another week of testimony about alleged police capture and political capture. When it first started, people said it was something akin to the Days of Our Lives, but now it seems more like The Nightmare before Christmas. With me is Juanita Du Preez of Action Society. Welcome, Juanita Juanita Du Preez (00:28.771)Thanks, Crhis Chris Steyn (00:31.053)Let's start with Witness C, who is continuing testimony. Witness C is the person who investigated and arrested Cat Matlala. And he is also the person, or she is also the person, who has not seen their family in a really long time because that would endanger their lives. Juanita Du Preez (00:55.468)Yes, we have very brave witnesses. I just wanted to quickly go back before I forget when you said in the introduction, alleged. I think I know it's a technical term that we have to use, but I just think with everything that's coming out, we can let go of the alleged…this is what really happened. So, yeah, I just wanted to mention that. But, Yeah, the witnesses are very brave. But the things that they are saying, and this makes me wonder how many other people know things who's not come out? And what else do we not know? There's already so many incriminating, horrible things that's come out of the commission and the committee. I just shudder when I think there's more to come and things that we won't hear, but I do hope everything comes out. Chris Steyn (02:01.055)Like somebody said, there should be police vans parked outside the venue where the Madlanga Commission hearing is being held so that those who can't hold up their testimony can be taken straight to the police station to make statements there. Witness C, according to him, Matlala told him that he gave suspended Deputy National Commissioner Shadrack Sabiya mllions in cash and that he secretly funded or paid 500,000 rand towards former Police Minister Senzo Mchunu's presidential campaign. Juanita Du Preez (02:43.982)Yes, seems like everybody has a price. There is no integrity. It's very specifically under the ANC politicians. Unfortunately, this is now what is coming out. I don't want to say yes, the ANC is criminals, but we have to get to a conclusion. Yeah, and it does really look like that. Everybody's got a price and it's...It's very disappointing that the people, and I've said it so many times, it feels like it's getting cliched now, the people that we trusted, that were supposed to do good work, they were just in it for themselves and they would do anything to get to that point. Somebody like a Minister of Police who takes money just to further his career. It is obviously the top of your career, the one that you can reach to be the President of the country. But how do you sleep at night when you know you are in charge of police and protecting South Africans? But on the other hand, you're taking money from very well known criminals. And then also just it looks like the it’s Sibiya and Mchunu, who from the beginning I grouped them two together and it looks like yeah they were the the two really bad ones. We have to do now levels of bad but they are the really bad ones. Chris Steyn (04:24.911)The Madlanga Commission also heard that the former Police Minister Mchunu, had links as an alleged friend to TK Molefe, the Murder Mastermind, whose arrest the Hawks tried to interfere with. And then ironically, the very unit that arrested him, the Political Killings Task Team, gets disbanded by the minister. Juanita Du Preez (04:52.61)Yes, so it doesn't sound so coincidental now. His explanation doesn't sound credible anymore. Previously, there was a level I could get my head around. All of the money shouldn't go to one task team and there is a time limit on a task team. But now, with everything else happening, it's just…It is very obvious that it wasn't the end of the road for them. It wasn't that their time was up. It was because they were getting too close, were making the water too hot for other people. He just he didn't even distinguish between the criminals and the crooks that he used. Just anybody who could pave his way was a friend. Yeah, very disappointing. Chris Steyn (05:49.519)At the Ad Hoc committee in Parliament, the MPs were astonished to hear that he had not delegated to his two deputy police ministers in over a year since their appointment. Juanita Du Preez (06:03.052)Yeah, so he was running the show just like he wanted to. Nobody could tell him he's doing it wrong because he wasn't informing them what he was doing. I mean them… yeah, he was... And it seems like this is the way they... It almost seems like this is how we're... And this is what we work with, how...domestic violence, how many men manipulate a situation, they just bring the person or isolate them and make all the decisions for them. So it almost feels like this. He just acted the way he wants to with no accountability, with not giving people information so that they can say, this is not the right direction that we're going in. What strikes me from all of this is that it took so long. Now everybody is on the bandwagon and everybody is spilling the beans, which is great. And I just saw that the witness list is getting so lengthy, at least in the committee, or they still need to speak to so many people, which means it's going to continue for some time. But why did people not speak up earlier? Why did it take a general from KwaZulu-Natal to create, to call a media press conference on a Sunday afternoon to spill the beans? Why did it continue for so long? Why did nobody speak up? When you see your minister not giving you information, not doing as he should, why do you keep quiet? Then aren't you as bad as him?.Read more:.Juanita du Preez: Witness A - Prepared to die for the truth!.Chris Steyn (08:01.935)And the question remains, know, who else knew? And we are still waiting for Tembisa Hospital looting kingpin, Hungwani Maumela, the nephew by previous marriage of President Cyril Rampahosa to get arrested despite his assets being confiscated. Well, the President has distanced himself from him very, very nicely, but why is he free? That is the question people are asking. Juanita Du Preez (08:29.836)Why? Nobody can understand why this guy, it is so obvious that he is the person, the mastermind behind everything to do with the Tembisa scandal. Why is this guy outside? Why is he not arrested? Why is a court case not pending? We saw the cars. We read the news reports. People in the media did investigations more than the police did and everything shows that he is the mastermind. Everybody knows that but still nothing. He just roams free. Chris Steyn (09:09.401)And Thembisa Hospital was apparently not the only one. The syndicates were apparently involved in at least five, includin, at other hospitals. Then Brian Mogotsi, African National Congress fixer, going back all the way to the CR17 campaign, seems to be on the run. Juanita Du Preez (09:19.83)Yes, it was just the... Juanita Du Preez (09:37.198)Well, I would also run if I was him. People have to jump now, have to, like I said previously, it's every man for himself. You have to protect yourself. You have to get out, get away. Otherwise, there's going to be consequences. Well, that's the theory that we're working on, that there are going to be consequences. And I really do hope that they...are consequences, that it's not just a commission and we say okay fine now we all know officially that there were problems but nothing okay continue now. I really do hope that's not where we're heading because that is what we saw in other commissions which took years and years and cost millions and millions of rands. Rightfully when people say there should be police vans standing outside of the commission and the committee to arrest people, why is that not happening? I think normal South Africans would welcome that. Chris Steyn (10:41.207)And why are people who are implicated at the commission and in Parliament not being suspended at the very least, people are asking that. Juanita Du Preez (10:50.926)There were two people suspended immediately and why were the rest not? Why can they continue with their work when they implicated? It is not fair and I think it puts a bit of doubt into the credibility of everything that is going on because if you can still continue with your work and you still have your connections and your networks, everything that you use to be corrup. It blows my mind that they can just continue with that. Why not suspend people if they are implicated? Chris Steyn (11:28.611)And you can see the ANC making anti-corruption statements more frequently now to try and distance themselves, I would imagine, from former alliances. Somebody was making an interesting point. Eugene de Kock of Vlakplaas took the fall for the Apartheid ministers. And speculation is now who will take the fall for the ANC ministers? Juanita Du Preez (11:57.549)Yes, that remains. Chris Steyn (11:57.965)The bets right now, the bets right now are on a general. Juanita Du Preez (12:04.398)it remains to be seen who is going to be the final person who's going to take the axe. And it is not fair because it is like with Eugene de Kock. I was alive when he did these things and people did do horrible things but he was not the only person. Juanita Du Preez (12:29.486)This is the same thing. It's not only two or three people who were the criminals. It's everybody who took part, anybody who benefited from it. They are all guilty and they should all have consequences and it should be really proper consequences, not just like a, oh, we'll take a month salary from you or you know, you're so naughty. We want to see real action so that, so that people also understand it is not accepted. South Africans will not accept this anymore. We want good people to run the country and to protect us. Chris Steyn (13:11.149)Let's talk about your favourite Economic Freedom Fighters Commande-in-Chief, once again, being suspiciously absent from the questioning of somebody at the Ad Hoc Committee. The previous time it was General Sibiya questioning and this time it was a deputy police minister’s, his alleged friend, Cassel Mathale. Juanita Du Preez (13:30.85)He has so many alleged friends. I don't know, he just yells at anybody or everybody, so I don't know how he keeps friends. But it is so suspicious every time when it's somebody related to him or not related as a family, but related to a friend when they are in the hot seat, then he's not there. Why is he not doing that? And I would like to...while we are throwing the net so wide, why don't we get him and come in and answer some questions on all of the things that's been said about him. Obviously not directly in this commission, but he is not squeaky clean. And when will we see all the crooks and criminals in politics stand up and get the consequences? Chris Steyn (14:26.767)You know, meanwhile in China, officials who are convicted of corruption and collusion with criminal syndicates get executed. Here we get excited if somebody actually gets arrested or doesn't get bail, like in the case of Cat Matlala, at least he's still behind bars, unlike TK Molefe. Juanita Du Preez (14:46.778)Yeah, it's a very radical thing to say, to actually wish that we have the same consequences in South Africa as in China, but I mean, nothing else is happening. So maybe we should try something new and just, you know, have people really feel the consequences of their actions. Juanita Du Preez (15:13.07)I obviously do not believe really that we should go that way, but more than a finger tap. Yeah, just saying you are naughty. Chris Steyn (15:23.747)Well, let's just, an arrest would be really exciting, you know, of somebody implicated. I think we can agree that that would excite us. Thank you. That was Juanita Du Preez of Action Society speaking to me, Chris Steyn, at BizNews Juanita Du Preez (15:28.27)For a start. Yes.

Juanita Du Preez: Sibiya and Mchunu - The “Cat” is out of the bag

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