Chris Steyn (00:01.282)

Mogotsi, Matlala, Mchunu, Maumela, Mkhwanazi times two, the Madlanga Commission. Is there an M factor here? I'm going to ask Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen. Welcome, Jonathan.

Jonathan Deal (00:19.144)

Thank you, Chris. I think definitely the M-Factor is a very suitable way to frame what we're experiencing as a nation and what we will apparently continue to experience.

You know, there's an old saying in English that a fish rots from the head down. I think many people will agree that a country takes its standards from the people at the top.

And when the people at the top are implicated in lying, stealing, cheating, murder, and for covering for each other and protecting each other, the nation takes its lesson from that standard. The constable in the police station learns that lesson. The youth on the street corner with an unlicensed firearm learns that lesson. And for me, most distressingly, the impressionable youth of South Africa are learning that lesson.

And we are at risk of this type of behaviour, this reprehensible, corrupt behaviour, violent behaviour becoming the norm, becoming a standard on which the youth of the country may well base their future behaviour.

You know, in February this year, President Ramaphosa said that organised crime posed the most immediate threat to our democracy. Yet, it appears to me that it is the people at the top of our country who are setting the bar on organised crime. And so when the world asks what is going on in South Africa, I don't think that the investigation should be starting in a tavern. I think it should be starting at the highest levels of government.

Chris Steyn (02:17.505)

Jonathan, talking about the rot at the top, somebody who is appearing in court today to resume his application for bail is Suspended Deputy National Commissioner General Shadrack Sibiya. Were you shocked at his arrest for rape, sexual grooming of a minor and human trafficking?

Jonathan Deal (02:40.957)

Completely. It is just, it absolutely beggars belief. And in fact, I think that it was that arrest and some comments from the executive of the country around gender-based violence that led Johannesburg attorney, Martin Hood, to post a very interesting video. And he just said that, you know, one of the reasons that we could probably ascribe to the scourge of gender-based violence in this country is the behaviour of the leaders of the country around this. It dovetails with my feeling and my view.

Those allegations formally have to be tested and ruled on by a court of law, but I don't think that based on media reports that there's too much doubt as to what has happened.

Yes, human beings are fallible. People in high positions all around the world do the most revolting things. But in South Africa, it just seems to be at a scale that is not equal to anywhere else.

Chris Steyn (03:53.753)

You've previously said that what we've heard at the Madlanga Commission is the tip of the iceberg. And if there's one person who knows who in government and in law enforcement circles are involved with organised crime, then it sacked deputy chief of Crime Intelligence General Feroz Khan. But every time he is about to appear at the Madlanga Commission, even in camera this time, something happens that prevents that. First his own shooting and this week the assassination of a close relative. Is he ever going to tell the Madlanga Commission what he knows?

Jonathan Deal (04:35.079)

I think that is something that we're all waiting to see.

And to follow on from that, I'm wondering, now, the Madlanga Commission has provided an enormous amount of information to the country. But then, of course, so did previous commissions, the Zondo Commission. And there's literally, I think, a room full of dockets waiting for prosecution and nothing appears to have happened from that. So I'm wondering what the appetite of the State is going to be to actually prosecute these people.

I also understand that the Madlanga Commission will provide its reports to the president in private. It is, after all, a commission that was commissioned by him, and that they are dealing with sensitive matters and sensitive investigations and to let information like that out ahead of time and the public may well compromise that.

But Chris, I also do have a little bit of an uneasy feeling in terms of who may be protected by people at the top in terms of what they have done and how much of the public or how much the public will get to know about that.

It is an enormous concern. We've got all of this information, a lot of it, the majority, all of it under oath, backed up with very good evidence, but it does just remain a commission, it's not a court of law. So will the executive of the country take the next step and sort this out? Are they going to set a bar that can put this country on the road to recovery in terms of its moral fabric?

Chris Steyn (06:26.19)

Another person who has not testified and doesn't seem likely to is President Cyril Ramaphosa's nephew by marriage, Hangwani Maumela.

Jonathan Deal (06:36.679)

Yeah, it was quite amusing. I noted a while back that he has lost some of the expensive sports cars that he owned. I'm not sure if he still lives in that mansion the size of a hotel somewhere in Johannesburg, Saxonwald or wherever it is. But yes, he also seems to, like Feroz Khan, seems to be well greased and able to slip out of the tiniest corners.

Chris Steyn (07:08.216)

Jonathan the mass shootings.

Jonathan Deal (07:12.639)

Yeah… five shootings in under a week, 46 people dead, two shootings in one day…18 people dead, gunmen with AK-47s. We'll talk about the AK-47s later. A few hours later, another 10 dead and 11 wounded. 45 mass killings from the 1st of January to the 28th of September this year 210 dead.

And this is happening while the overall murder rate in the country has fallen to 41 percent from 44.7 percent. That still leaves us at 60 murders a day and 5,427 people just from April to June 2026.

It links back for me to...the moral fabric of the country. It links back to the way that the country is being run, to the example that the whole nation is getting from the people at the top. And it may, you know, it may seem facile or trite to try and blame a relatively small group of people for this state of affairs. But all of this is happening on their watch. And it comes down to the fish rotting from the head down story.

And if you listen to the senior executives in the country, the leadership of the country, they're always blaming somebody else. They're either blaming a system that basically went out of fashion in 1994, or they are blaming somebody else. It's never the people who are in charge.

Jonathan Deal (09:16.795)

It smacks to me to put it into simple terms where you have a very bad meal at a restaurant of the owner or the manager of the restaurant blaming the waiter for the meal.

And I think it's time for the leadership of the country to man up, face up to what has happened under their watch and either deal with it or step aside and let other people deal with it.

But at this stage, our country…And we are just, we're becoming so accustomed to this in South Africa, these new allegations, these new revelations of crime and corruption and murder at the highest levels, that things like these shootings, these two shootings that happened in one day, 28 people dead and 11 wounded in one day at two separate incidents, people don't even talk about it for very long.

So the crime situation is enormously concerning. And I think most enormously concerning for the private citizen. It doesn't seem to be having too much of an impact at the high levels of government where the air is thin and the food is good.

Chris Steyn (10:33.314)

While the special leave of Police Minister Senzo Mchunu and the remuneration of acting minister Firoz Cachalia are costing the country millions, the former police minister is back in the news again, Jonathan.

Jonathan Deal (10:51.591)

Tens of millions that Minister, suspended Minister Mchunu is earning while all of this grinds its way through hearings and commissions. And the Sunday Times led this week with a “Charge Cele”. According to a police forensics report, a 370-page report, they are recommending that he be charged in terms of a relationship with the famous Cat Matlala. Mr. Cele denies even having any type of relationship at all with Cat Matlala. Certainly denies receiving any money from him, but the chief executive of Medicare under oath has talked about hundreds of thousands of rands handed to Minister Cele, allegedly handed to Minister Cele by Cat Matlala in KwaZulu-Natal, penthouse stays, and all sorts of other allegations.

And then there was one where the extortionists are talking about taxi bosses, Bafana Sindana and Joe Ferrari Sibanyone. And we know that Sindana has been called to the Madlanga Commission as well. It's all interlinked, it's all part of the same pot.

But Minister Cele, to be fair, at this stage has not been tried in a court and he has vociferously denied all of the allegations against him.

Chris Steyn (12:30.292)

Mm. And I've just remembered another M Jonathan, CIC of the Economic Freedom Fighters, Mr Julius Malema. His name has come up quite a few times at the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry, but he has also not been called to testify. And meanwhile he has been given or granted leave to appeal his conviction and sentence for a firearms discharge crime.

Jonathan Deal (12:52.71)

Absolutely. And I think that Julius Malema is a consummate politician. He knows his way around politics. He's a very shrewd operator. And I think that the State in all of its forms is very careful about how they handle him.

I'm not surprised that he has been granted leave to appeal that ruling or that verdict in the Magistrate's Court. But we'll see how that goes. And yes, as we said in our previous discussions around the Madlanga Commission, his name has come up on a number of occasions. But whether that will be tested further is something that we'll all have to wait and see.

Chris Steyn (13:49.625)

Jonathan, it seems that every time we speak and some time passes, people tell me they feel yet more unsafe. As the founder of Safe Citizen, I was thinking the other day, it's almost like Unsafe Citizen. Full stop.

Jonathan Deal (14:07.572)

Yeah, I think that as I said, you know, we've got to a point where I'm not sure if it can get worse. I'm really not sure if it can get worse than what we've got at the moment.

But certainly people I'm increasingly hearing it. People don't want to travel at night unless they absolutely have to. The youngsters who are still in the party mode, the young people still travel around, but many people of my age and mature adults with families, if they can be in their homes and stay there during the hours of darkness, that's what they like to do. It's really unfortunate.

And I think that it would be fair also to say that this is not a uniquely South African phenomenon. It is something that one is seeing around the world, an increase in crime and violent crime and a devolution of standards. But in South Africa, there are the political undertones that are really concerning. And the fact that it has found its way again into the management and leadership of the country for me is the big concern.

Chris Steyn (15:32.686)

As a journalist, there was a time when crime and politics were really distinct beats that one had to cover. But these days it often seems like the same thing. It's so intertwined.

Jonathan Deal (15:43.015)

Absolutely. And it's dominating the media. And I think there's a change that we could follow in this whole sequence. And I made some notes on it. The head steals, the institutions bend, the armory leaks, referring to the State armories and the military armories, the criminals do the sums, the community has to adapt, and the norm dies, and children grow up learning one rule: don't get caught. And so nobody gets caught or the people that get caught don't get prosecuted.

I think that we could say we don't lose our values in the townships. We lose our values in the boardrooms and the Cabinet rooms and the townships are where the people are paying the price.

Chris Steyn (16:38.072)

Jonathan, anything else that you would like to add from Safe Citizens side?

Jonathan Deal (16:42.46)

I think that if we could say a little bit of a roadmap of what must change urgently, the country needs to act on the interim reports now. Let's follow the money upwards to the top, clean the top first.

We've spoken about that right at the outset of our interview and leave the lawful gun owner alone. Increasingly, the tide - even in the dyed-in-the-wool mainstream media who have faithfully regurgitated the government line on disarmament of private citizens - even there the tide is changing. People in the public are starting to understand that this violent crime is not something that can be placed at the door of lawful private firearm owners.

And we're very involved in this. Safe Citizen is involved in running three campaigns at the moment all around this issue. And on a daily basis, we get to take a bit of a reading of the mood in the country around the issue of privately owned firearms. And we're certainly seeing a great change in that. I think that the government, towards the end of last year, was very bullish about the Firearms Control Amendment Bill and the fact that it would be rubber stamped and pushed through. I think they're having a very good rethink about that. There is a lot less support for that. And I think a greater awareness by the public that competent and lawfully armed citizens are actually an asset to the community. And we'll see how that space develops, Chris, but it's certainly an interesting environment.

Chris Steyn (18:36.6)

Thank you. That was Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen. Speaking to BizNews, I'm Chris Steyn.

Jonathan Deal: Follow the money to the top…