Gayton McKenzie spoke to Alec Hogg on the morning the ANC's national executive committee sat to decide its coalition path, and he was ready with a prediction: who would run Joburg, Tshwane and Ekurhuleni, and which party he believed would be left with nothing. Hours later he was due to sit down alone with DA leader Geordin Hill-Lewis, a meeting he traced back to a favour owed to Rob Hersov and a handshake made before a single vote was cast. The Patriotic Alliance more than doubled its council seats yet lost the Eldorado Park ward where it was born, and McKenzie was candid about why he felt it took silver rather than gold. He named the complacency he blamed for George, the one Northern Cape council he said the PA would rather fight a re-election over than hand to the ANC, and the message he sent his own leaders that morning. He closed by taking aim at Swimming South Africa after Tatjana Smith's switch to the Netherlands..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Alec Hogg (00:02) He promised to double the Patriotic Alliance's seat count in the local government elections. He certainly achieved that, up from 75 to 191, so more than doubled. But the PA also lost the ward where the party was born, Ward 18 in Eldorado Park. Gayton McKenzie runs a small party, still, at the moment anyway, but it's got big leverage. He's the Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture. Kingmaker in the Karoo and in quite a few other places. So he's going to be one of the busiest negotiators in a country where only 73 of 231 councils now have an outright controlling party. We're in the era of coalitions, and the PA is certainly going to be one of those playing a big role.Gayton, welcome back to BizNews. It's always such a pleasure to be talking with you, not least because of your filter-free approach. You take us in and we understand. And I suppose sometimes people say, well, maybe you're the one politician who does talk straight and honestly and from the heart. I've got to ask you the obvious question. The ANC is still the biggest party in the country. It's down a heck of a lot, but it's still got a lot of cards in the negotiations. How are you seeing the ANC... and by the way, sorry, they also decide as a collective. It's not that Cyril Ramaphosa makes a decision. The whole group makes a decision. How are you seeing them approach these very sensitive coalition negotiations that are going ahead?Gayton McKenzie (01:47) Well, thank you so much. It's always a great pleasure to be on BizNews. You know what I like about BizNews is it's also very unfiltered. What you say is what you're going to see later. Many times we do interviews, and many times we wouldn't recognise the way it gets chopped and changed and edited. And I've never had that experience with BizNews. I think where I disagree with you is that Cyril Ramaphosa has never taken the decisions alone, for two reasons. One, the ANC is really a broad church. They decide together. But also he's a centrist. You know what I mean? He's a middle guy. He listens to everyone, and then he makes you all feel, when you walk out of the meeting, that you've achieved not everything, but you've achieved a great deal of what you wanted. He's not a winner-takes-all type of guyGayton McKenzie (02:17) And when you look at the ANC, you are so right when you say that the tree is smaller, but the fruit will be more. Let me explain. The ANC is in the best position of anyone. Now, what is going to happen today at the NEC meeting, I can tell you already what's going to come out of that meeting. They're having the most important NEC meeting in the history of the ANC, because they have to take big decisions. One being: are we going to go with the EFF and MK and ActionSA, or are we going to stick to the GNU model, the DA? Now, they are in a very good position. Although the tree is smaller, the fruit will be bigger. How? I'll tell you what I predict is going to happen in that meeting, which is the smartest thing to do.Gayton McKenzie (03:15) They will come out of there and decide: no, we're going to work with Mashaba, the EFF and, to an extent, MK. We're not going to work with the DA. So that gives them leverage. It takes the DA's power away, because they're putting the DA in a corner if they do that. They come out and they say, the City of Joburg... Mashaba will run the City of Joburg, this is my prediction. Mashaba will run the City of Joburg. Mashaba will run Tshwane and the ANC will run Ekurhuleni. Those are the victories. They'll give Mashaba Joburg, they'll give Mashaba Tshwane, and the ANC will take Ekurhuleni. And the DA will be nowhere. Helen Zille will not become mayor. Cilliers Brink will not become mayor.So basically they're freezing them out when it comes to that. But they still have them at GNU level. So if the DA does not behave at GNU level, the ANC will then say, it's fine, we are working with the EFF and them very nicely. So that takes away the leverage of the DA, where the government will break if they leave. And then the EFF and them have got aspirations to become part of the GNU. Their language has changed. MK and EFF language has changed from "we hate the GNU"...Gayton McKenzie (05:23) ...to "we won't be part of the GNU if the Freedom Front Plus and DA are part of it. That was a monumental shift in politics, in political speak. It went from the "GNU is a sellout" position to Malema and MK saying, well, we will consider the GNU only if these white parties are not part of the GNU. Now, that's a big shift. The problem that you're sitting with is...Gayton McKenzie (05:54) The most popular person in the ANC is Cyril Ramaphosa. If you had to do a study now, he's the most popular person in the ANC. People that think it's the end of Cyril Ramaphosa have no idea what's happening in the ANC. They have no one more popular than President Ramaphosa at the moment. But what will be the igniter of the discussion of him leaving will be if he gives the DA more power. And allow me 30 seconds to explain this to you. If he goes against that big section that does not want to work with the DA, if he now says today, "now we work with the DA", that will start the discussion, and it will be the only reason for talks to start circling. There will be disgruntlement, people will surround that point. For this man to go, there has to be a reason, because at the moment there's no reason you can advance for why Cyril Ramaphosa should leave.The ANC will choose the EFF and ActionSA. ActionSA will not choose the DA, I can promise you that. Somebody asked me this morning to explain that to them. I said, the DA is in a position... and I'm meeting Geordin Hill-Lewis this afternoon at 4pm. I'm meeting with him. But the DA is in the position of a friend of who was in a shop one day, and he just threw his toys in the shop and he was shouting at everyone. And he left that shop shouting at everyone how useless they are. And when he got to his vehicle, he realised he'd left his keys there. Gayton McKenzie (07:48) And he had to come back in, and he had to ask them with all humility, "Has any one of you seen my keys?" And that's where the DA is. Today they're reaching out to Mashaba after they've insulted him. They're reaching out even to Zuma. Geordin Hill-Lewis wrote the letter to Zuma. Now you understand. If you're reaching out to the EFF and Zuma... I didn't believe it until somebody showed me the letter. I couldn't believe that. Now that shows you... Gayton McKenzie (08:18) ...actually how smart Geordin Hill-Lewis is, not how dumb he is, because now he has realised that it is in the hands of the ANC. So what is he doing now? And I would think it's a little bit too late. He's now talking to other people, because he realised what the ANC... he realised what I just told you, and that's smartness. So they couldn't catch him off guard.Gayton McKenzie (08:45) So anybody that thinks Helen Zille is going to be the mayor of Joburg, forget that dream. It's not going to happen. ActionSA and the DA will not work together. I am a witness of how... the worst and the greatest thing about Herman Mashaba is he also speaks his mind and he doesn't lie.He doesn't lie. Let me tell you, he'll bring out something raw. He's dead honest. We were laughing with Charles yesterday. We're having whiskey in our house, and he looked me straight in the eye and he said, "I am the only person that can fix Joburg." And I'm looking at him like, well, I can also fix Joburg. But that's how he is. He's very unfiltered. And Mashaba has tried to keep... Gayton McKenzie (09:40) ...Joburg out of the hands of the ANC for a very long time. And he was let down. We had a deal, which I must tell you about. We wanted two MMCs and the DA said, we only give you one. I said, no, you'll give me two, otherwise I'm walking. Then Mashaba put his hand up in the meeting, he's like, "take my one". And then I thought it was the end of the story, until the DA said, "you can't give", and he says, "why?" So, him not wanting to work with the DA, maybe the listeners must understand he has been hurt, he has been humiliated, and people don't forget those things easily.So in a nutshell, you asked me what's going to happen now. I gave you the prediction that the DA will be the biggest loser in this election, simply because... Alec Hogg (10:34) It's extraordinary, Gayton. When I spoke to Herman on Monday, he said he wants to work with the DA. And you're right, he is unfiltered and he's pretty honest. He said, "I want to work with the DA, but I will not work with Cilliers Brink and Helen Zille. Take them off the table and we've got a deal." That's what he said. So where did the change come?Gayton McKenzie (10:59) He's still saying that, but who do you think will tell Helen Zille to... You must understand one thing about Helen Zille: she's a force of nature. Yeah, I said it. Helen Zille is a force of nature. Helen Zille will annoy you until you find her cute. I know black people in Joburg, they told me, "damn, this woman is annoying, but she's so cute". She's always, like a mermaid, in potholes, swimming in. People started making jokes: we can't drive fast any more because she might pop out of a pothole.Helen Zille... and if you ask me what the biggest mistake the ANC made, psychologically, it comes down to Helen Zille for me. The ANC has come to realise the biggest mistake was making the DA palatable to black people. That's what the ANC did. They said, no, it's okay to work with these people, and it's okay to vote for these people, because we're working with them. So black people, who were totally anti-DA, started seeing the ANC working with the DA, and they thought, well, if the ANC works with them, we might as well vote for them too. And I think that's now psychological. I'm telling you today, Herman Mashaba wants one thing: he wants to fix things. That is his ambition as a political leader. But I'm saying this to you, and he's not a good politician. He doesn't do politics very well. He's not a politician like Geordin Hill-Lewis, like a Gayton McKenzie at times. He just wants to come in, fix things, and doesn't care who's in charge. That's why he says, those two off the table and we might have a deal. But there's no one in the DA...Gayton McKenzie (12:50) ...that has a wish to be fired. You go tell Helen Zille she can't be mayor. You might as well go there and pack your bags already. That's never going to happen. Helen Zille will also not give Herman Mashaba that accolade, to say he finished a political career, because after this there'll be nothing. It's not going to happen.Alec Hogg (13:15) Okay, that's interesting. What's your take on the message that voters sent? Because they did push the DA up considerably in Gauteng. And as I said in the introduction, you guys did great compared with 2021, but with the by-election results, you must have expected more.Gayton McKenzie (13:38) Of course we did. I expected more. Everybody in the PA expected more, because we set such high standards for ourselves. But in a normal world, let me show you what we've achieved. I hear you say small party. We are the second-largest party in the Western Cape. We are the third-largest party in the Northern Cape. We are going to run our own municipality. We just need one vote. We are at 49%. Prince Albert, we won four of the five wards. And the funniest one for me is, tied with the EFF, we are the third-largest party in Orania. We got one vote. Alec Hogg (14:26) That's crazy. That is crazy.Gayton McKenzie (14:32) So I visited Orania, my visit delivered one vote. I think I need to go 150,000 times to get it. But the PA has done extraordinarily well, from 75 to 192. While other parties were losing, we did very, very well. Gayton McKenzie (14:59) It's fascinating how there's a push to keep Jacob Zuma out, which I must tell you seems like it might even succeed in eThekwini, because the ANC and the DA are lining up parties. We have one seat there, which has become very important. I remember I spoke to you, I said we want three seats, which will become very important. Our one seat has become equally important in eThekwini, and that is what's happening there now. Alec Hogg (15:29) So you might even have that wish that you had, that you could put MK into power in eThekwini with that one seat. Is that possible? Gayton McKenzie (15:36) Well, I think MK, I think they're 4% off the mark. I don't see MK running eThekwini, if they did... but what I didn't budget for was that our one seat would be as important to the ANC, because they're working together, and I've seen what Dean Macpherson and the ANC are doing. It is extraordinary how they are talking to different parties.And you see, all these talks mean nothing until this afternoon. All these coalition talks, nobody in the ANC has a mandate to do a deal until the NEC decides. So you can have a deal, but that deal is not cast in stone until it's signed off by the National Executive Committee. The same with the PA negotiators I'm meeting today, with the DA negotiators, and me and Geordin are having a quick coffee, me and Geordin Hill-Lewis.So I'm saying to you, all credit to Geordin Hill-Lewis for the fact that he saw what I said two weeks ago already. He saw that the ANC might leave him with nothing in this election, except what they've won, which is enough. They've done well. The DA has done extremely well. They've managed to hold the PA back when it comes to the City of Cape Town. Listen, we threw everything at them and they managed to hold a blue wall up. The same in George. Those are the two places where I take my hat off to the DA, that they managed to stop a PA attack.They couldn't do it in Swellendam, they couldn't do it in Kokama, they couldn't do it in Prince Albert, they couldn't do it in Matzikama, they couldn't do it in Saldanha, they couldn't do it in other places. But in two places, I must tell you, much respect to them, how they managed to stop our attack. It's not something... with the knowledge that I know what we... Gayton McKenzie (17:59) ...came with and how hard we fought, and they were pushing us back in those two places. The others they couldn't. There was no way they were going to push us back in all the other places. But in the two that mattered, they did. Alec Hogg (18:13) Gayton, there was a good relationship at one point between you and the DA, and then that fell apart. Is the fact that John Steenhuisen is gone now, and Helen Zille, as you're suggesting, will not have too much longer in her political career, does that mean you could look at the DA with different eyes? I mention this because your policies are a heck of a lot closer than they are with most of the other political parties.Gayton McKenzie (18:49) A very good question, Alec. Here's the issue that you must understand. There was a time when I didn't have a good relationship with John Steenhuisen. We were not on speaking terms, the PA and DA. I was on holiday. Then, he's always there in the room, Corné Mulder. He called me and he said, "please, it can't go like this. We can't let the ASEs take over everywhere. Can we have a private meeting at my house?" I said, cool. We went there. There was a famous potato salad that his wife made, and we all agreed on how good this potato salad was. And we made peace there, John Steenhuisen, myself and Corné Mulder. And we also agreed that in Joburg we will not vote for the ANC. We will kick the ANC out of Joburg, in that meeting in Corné Mulder's house, and you can confirm with him. And then we even spoke about the posture that the GNU will take, our coalition will take, what positions we will take, and we'll make the DA mayor. Only for the DA then to stab us in the back and say in the Sunday Times they'll never work with us again. And when we called him, Corné Mulder was disgusted, to say the least.And to this day, the only thing we still agree on is the potato salad was damn good. All the other things we agreed on didn't happen. We still live with the potato salad. And then what happened: Rob Hersov. I tell you, he's got a love for this country. People always think that Rob Hersov funds us. No, Rob Hersov doesn't fund the PA. He tried to give us money. I said, I don't want it. Then I asked him a big favour. He says, I'll do it for you. What did I want from him? I needed him to give somebody a lift in a jet or something. I can't remember what it was. But I asked him a favour once, and he said, all right, you're going to owe me a favour. I said, fine, I'll owe you. Then Rob called me a few months ago. He's like, "time for you to pay, boy". I said, yes, boy, what's up? He says, "I need you to meet somebody at my house privately." It's Geordin Hill-Lewis. I'm like...Gayton McKenzie (21:15) What? Can't you ask me something else? He says no. So I went to meet him at Rob Hersov's house. We sat down and I found him to be a jolly good fellow. That was the first time I really got to know the chap, the leader of the DA. And in that meeting we said, listen, no matter what happens, no matter how hard we fight, after the election we're going to have a one-on-one. And in that one-on-one, if it requires of us to work together, we will work together. We shook hands on that. And I said, only if we're both happy will we work together. So today is that day. But I walked away there with a greater appreciation for him as a person. And because our policies are so aligned, I hope that today... I must actually call Rob to tell him that it's come full circle. Gayton McKenzie (22:11) Today I'm meeting him at 4pm for that day, because we said a few days after the election, no matter how angry we are, no matter how much we insulted each other, we're going to meet separately, and we are meeting separately, away from the team. And I can tell you, I think that he will take the DA from strength to strength if he sees it. He's carving his own path, mainly now where Mashaba is going to stop Helen Zille's political career. I can promise you that one.Gayton McKenzie (22:39) She stopped him from becoming mayor. Things have turned. And even with Helen, she's got nothing to be embarrassed about. She has made a mark on our political landscape. I remember John Steenhuisen was like... when Helen was going to run for mayor, he says to me, "why are you so shocked?" I said, she's old. He's like, "that woman is going to bury both of us one day." And I'll never forget that. My point is that Helen Zille has truly made a mark.And everybody says I'm wrong. I don't think I'm wrong. People in my party say I'm wrong when I tell them Herman Mashaba will go all he wants. He wants to get on with the job of fixing Joburg. He doesn't want to be embroiled in watching his back or politics. The ANC will come out of there today saying they're not going to go with the DA in the metros. Yes. It means that the voters... people think the South African voters are stupid.Alec Hogg (23:51) What does all of this mean for 2029? Gayton McKenzie (24:07) I love white guys telling me, "why do you guys still vote for the ANC? Why do black people still vote for the ANC?" And I'm like, you don't understand this. I think you guys have got one of the most intelligent electorates you can ever get in the world. Let me quickly show you: every election the ANC goes from 70 to 60 to 50. They're now in the 40s. They're now in the 30s. Just look at it, every election. Which means they're not happy with the majority party. The DA the same. They're also losing members. It's just that they've got a much cleverer media team that makes it look like they are doing so great. They are not. Numbers don't lie, and at the end of the day it comes down to numbers. It's like I can sit here and tell you, yeah, we have achieved everything. No, no, we have not achieved everything as the PA. I wanted to be getting gold. I feel I'm just on the podium. I feel I got a silver. And that is what I must grapple with. But people... I said, no, no. I'm low-key about that. We didn't get gold, but I'm on the podium, if that makes sense.With President Ramaphosa as a very shrewd politician, I can't see him giving the DA so much power over the ANC. It will be a massive mistake if he makes it. Gayton McKenzie (25:38) It will be a catastrophic mistake if he makes it. Because you saw what came out two days ago. Cilliers Brink says, "we're pushing the ANC". That was the worst thing, at the worst moment, he could have said. "We're pushing the ANC. We want to push the ANC." That doesn't help. Everybody's playing that. I think I got a hundred people sending me that same clip. So where I think they're going to be... they are going to say: it's the African National Congress. We give you this one. In the metros we'll work with you. Nationally we work with the DA. The DA's got golden handcuffs. They can't walk away from the GNU even if they try. I hear some people say business will never forgive anyone, including the ANC, if you break the GNU. The GNU is one of the biggest things President Ramaphosa has achieved. When he writes his memoirs, the GNU will be part of that legacy.Business loves the GNU. People love the GNU, and rightly so. I mean, you look at somebody in the DA, for instance, somebody like Leon Schreiber. I think he's doing a hell of a good job in some aspects. Then you look at Ramokgopa. I think he's doing a hell of a good job. And we sit together and talk, like, don't you think we should do that? I think South Africans don't see that. I think we failed in the GNU to show people the unity amongst us when there are no cameras. I see some of the GNU guys, we just sit together and we start talking. And that is... we can't lose the GNU.Gayton McKenzie (27:31) And now we will all be... except the ANC tree is smaller, but they will get more fruit from it.Alec Hogg (27:37) It's so interesting, the point you make, because human beings at the end of the day, if you put them in a room together, will always have much more in common than they have that they disagree on. If you look at the PA's performance just for a moment, though, the by-elections were suggesting you were going to have a very, very good local government election. Why was there so much difference? Look at George, for instance. You were like a machine in George, just winning by-election after by-election, and yet not winning the majority there. What lessons did you learn from that?Gayton McKenzie (28:18) Firstly, you see, I don't want to be... I'll tell a story that somebody once told me. Somebody warned me never to fall in the trap, and I think you're falling in the trap now. He says there was a woman that had five sons. One son was blind. And when she was on her deathbed, she called the four sons. She's like, "your brother's blind, he cannot work. All I'm asking you before I die, look after him." But he was a very ungrateful fellow. Every day they would work hard. They were suffering, but they worked hard and they would bring food, and he would complain that there's no meat. He would complain there's only gravy. Every day they would listen to his complaints, him not knowing how hard they had to work just to put food on the table. So one day they got a bonus, and they said, you know what, let us shock our brother. Let's put 15 lamb chops in front of him. And they put 15 lamb chops in front of him, and he did this.Gayton McKenzie (29:25) "Fifteen chops? I'm sure each of you is sitting there with half a cow, half a cow, half a cow." So people took us from 75 to 192, not even 191, 192. And still outstanding are the district seats. They're still coming. They took us to becoming the third-largest party in the Northern Cape. We overtook the ANC in the Western Cape second. That's massive.So for me, as I said to you, it's because of my ambition and because of my drive, I just think we could have done better. That doesn't mean we didn't do good. But in George, what I've learned is complacency. Look, we went from six seats to 11 in George. That is not small change... not to be sniffed at.Gayton McKenzie (30:20) And we did, I mean, go from six seats to 11 seats. But I think George is an example where people were already in their heads, "we're winning this thing", while the DA was just chipping away, "we're losing this thing, let's try to claw back, claw back". It was, what was the Australian rugby captain? He told me one of the most marvellous stories. He was the first winning rugby captain. Gayton McKenzie (30:49) ...a big friend of mine of many years ago. He was the captain of the Australian rugby team. I forget his name now.Alec Hogg (30:56) George Gregan. Gayton McKenzie (cont.) No, no, no. Before him. He was also in mining. We later invested together in a mining company. What he said to me: when they were playing, at half-time in the World Cup, they were losing. They went in, people were dejected. And he said to his guys, and I just thought that was so brilliant, "Listen to me. When you walk back on that field, don't look at the scoreboard. Just play rugby. Don't look at the scoreboard. Just play rugby." He said none of them looked at the scoreboard, and at the end of the game, they won. Gayton McKenzie (31:18) That's the same with us. We kept on looking at the scoreboard: we are here, we came through the by-elections, we won three by-elections in a row. While the DA didn't look at the scoreboard. They just chipped on. And those lessons...Gayton McKenzie (31:48) The PA will be unrecognisable with all the mistakes we've learned from. The PA will be unrecognisable for 2029. We will have new leadership in most places. We will work very hard and we will go back to being extremely humble. People were over-complacent: "we've got this thing, we've got this thing". That attitude, we need to get rid of it. And we need the attitude of: we are losing, we're losing, we have to win, we have to win, but we are losing. And I think that for me is one of the biggest mistakes we've made as the Patriotic Alliance. Complacency.Alec Hogg (32:28) ActionSA was incredible, from 90 seats to 313. What did they do right? Where did that swing come from? Because it's not long ago that there was a feeling that ActionSA was done, that they would peter out, and yet look at them today. Gayton McKenzie (32:46) That is the question. That's the question I asked Mashaba yesterday, and he explained it to me. He said he was so dejected. He said, "I don't think you understand how hurt I was after the election. You don't understand. I was broken." Because he's a winner naturally in his life. I mean, look at what he's achieved. And he said he sat down. He said, "I can lie down and just wipe my tears, or I can wipe my tears and go out." He went out. He said he went ward for ward and he went to get the best people in every ward, and he worked with them.I mean, you look at the wards where the DA, Helen, bought transformers in their ward in Soweto. He took those wards. He didn't hurt the DA, he hurt the ANC. Mashaba hurt the ANC in ways that the English language can't even explain. Alec Hogg (33:48) Hard work. Was that it? Gayton McKenzie (33:50) I would never have believed anybody could get more votes than the ANC in Soweto. You would not have told me that. He did. It is through sheer old-fashioned hard work. That's what Mashaba did. And he knows everything about hard work.And for us, you know, this morning, I said something to all the leaders of the PA. When I woke up after sitting with Mashaba, I'll tell you what I said to them. This is what I said to them: "Dear leaders, we have reached the most critical stage of party politics. This is the stage where your next move decides if you enter hell or you enter heaven. Our growth was good, some people say great, but not as spectacular as our ambition demanded. We totally bombed out in Gauteng and Limpopo, in Mpumalanga and KZN, no matter how you look at it. Our saving grace was the Western Cape, Northern Cape, Eastern Cape, North West and Free State. We would have been in mourning if the above places didn't rise to the occasion. All this information requires deep self-introspection."I have so much new respect for Herman Mashaba after spending half a day with him at my house yesterday. He found himself at the same crossroads, and he changed everything about how his party operates, and the result is there for everyone to see. He painstakingly identified every councillor, and those councillors won wards from the ANC, even where Helen brought transformers for the community. We have to identify very early who our premier candidates will be, who our new leaders will be. I said new leaders, because we cannot and will not continue with the same leaders who didn't deliver. We need to have everybody in position and future-ready. Everyone's role in the PA shall be exposed in the next two years before 2029. The next election is two years from now. Yes, two years." That is the message I sent to the NEC this morning, because they were all going on: "we did well, we did well, 192 seats". I said, yeah, we did good, but we didn't shoot the lights out.Alec Hogg (36:07) I'd love to get your insights about Laingsburg, because it is a move into the Western Cape for ActionSA, where they got the most votes. And I think you said you are going to be supporting them and giving them that government there. It sounds to me like you will coalesce with ActionSA where you have an opportunity. Gayton McKenzie (36:33) Yeah, definitely. I tell you once again, I told you the reason this morning: Herman and Michael Beaumont, what you say to them, you don't need to worry that they're going to change it. Those two gentlemen, you tell them something, you shake hands, it's done. And that's the type of guy... it's like Corné. Corné's the same. Corné and Pieter Groenewald will tell you, "nee, nee, nee". We'll argue about something, we'll walk away, Corné and Pieter, they'll be like "nee", but at least you go to bed knowing you didn't agree.But you know, we've had so many instances in the past. I remember this one instance that hurt me more than anything in politics. We decided we were going to vote the DA out in Nelson Mandela Bay, around 2016, 2017, I think. And I've never forgiven the DA, I think, for that. Athol Trollip was the mayor.And with Malema, all of us decided to vote him out. And then my neighbour asked me, can I pick up his son from school? I said, no, it's fine, my son is not at school today, but I'll get your son. So this white boy, Afrikaner boy, jumped in the back of the car: "Hello, Oom Gayton." And I look at my phone and Malema said he's going to cut the throat of whiteness. He's going to cut the throat of whiteness. And this boy is asking me, "who is this?" And I just thought, you know what? This boy doesn't see colour. This boy just sees... am I in front of him? And I said, you know what? And I shocked everyone. Even Trollip was shocked. I then went public. I said, I'm no longer going to vote with the EFF. That is just racist. Cut the throat of whiteness, what message do you give out? And I said to Trollip... Helen says, no, fine, we can get deputy mayor in Nelson Mandela Bay. And they never gave it to us, although we kept there. So a lot of people feel that way about the DA. And I hope Geordin Hill-Lewis can change that narrative, that you must be known. And it's not even about white or whatever. You look at Corné Mulder. I can tell you I've had over-the-phone discussions with Corné about Oudtshoorn, over the phone, not even with an audience, not with minutes...Gayton McKenzie (38:58) ...and he kept his word, I kept my word.Laingsburg, we have agreed. There are big lessons for all of us in the Central Karoo. The DA spent a lot of time saying the people of the Central Karoo don't like me, because they feel, where I put all those bucket toilets... those people voted for me. Prince Albert, nearly the whole municipality voted for me. But the DA, say Gayton McKenzie stole the bucket. So the recipients of the bucket toilets voted for me, and that's just like 3% of Prince Albert. And the fact that people voted for me in Beaufort West, I've got a seat in Beaufort West, I've got a seat in Laingsburg, it shows that my work there delivered some fruit. And Mashaba has done the unthinkable in Laingsburg, as he did in Soweto. And I support ActionSA. Wherever we find them in a municipality, I will support them. Gayton McKenzie (39:56) The last thing before you come in: we've had a meeting with the ANC. We didn't agree. We had a big fight when it came to Dawid Kruiper. It became so much so that they said, we'd rather go for re-election. They said, we can't give you mayor there. And with the PA and the ANC, it became a stalemate. We agreed on the whole of the Northern Cape. When it came to Dawid Kruiper, which was the last one, they were clear that they must be mayor. We said, no, we have to be mayor. And it got to the stage where they said, listen, then we'd rather have a re-election in the Northern Cape. I said, well, let's do that.And if I change tomorrow and I give them Dawid Kruiper, then you must know I'm a sellout. Because I'm telling you, I'd rather go for re-election than give the ANC Dawid Kruiper. We promised the people before we got the vote we will not give them Dawid Kruiper specifically. No other community made a demand of us except Dawid Kruiper. They're like, "we'll vote for you on one condition: don't give the ANC that." So it means we're going to go for re-elections in 90 days. We are ready to go for re-election, but I will not come on your show next week and say, I got some pressure from the president or pressure from somebody. They're not getting that from the PA. Alec Hogg (41:18) So are you going to work with them elsewhere, but just not at Dawid Kruiper? Gayton McKenzie (41:24) That will depend on what deal we discuss today with the DA. I'll text you tonight and tell you if we find each other with the DA. People always say, "Gayton is the ANC". No, that is a lot of nonsense. I do the best for my people. If the best for my people that voted for me is with the ANC, I'll go with the ANC. As of today, we don't have a deal with the ANC. I'm going to speak to the DA this afternoon. If we get a good deal, Swellendam, Knysna, everywhere, we'll go with the DA. I'm saying it right here. If they can give us a deal. But we don't want to be a walkover. I don't want to be treated like I'm a small party. I'm the second-largest party in the Western Cape. Give me respect. We are the second-largest party. So give us respect, but don't treat us like "you do as we say". We are not that type of party. All those parties that did as they were told have been swallowed up by the ANC and the DA today. You'll never swallow up the PA.Alec Hogg (42:27) I can't let you go before finding out your position on Tatjana Smith. It was a real shock for many of us to see that she's no longer going to swim for South Africa, but she's going to swim for the Netherlands. We understand Swimming South Africa... you need to give us your position on all of this. Gayton McKenzie (42:48) Well, let me tell you my position. I think Swimming South Africa, like ten other federations, is the worst thing that could have happened to this country. Let me start there. They don't know what they're doing. But you must also understand there's a Sport and Recreation Act, which I am bound to follow. And that act is very clear. It tells you where my powers start and where my powers end. I have no powers to disband them. So I have to do one thing: we have to write a new Sport and Recreation Act, which we are 90% done with. That will give me the powers to bite. But in the meantime, because I knew that's going to take another three months before it sees the light of day, I went to speak to World Aquatics. I went to speak to World Athletics. I went to speak to the mother bodies that have the power, and I asked them to act. And they've acted.Now, people don't understand that part. The reason why the SASCOC president is suspended, the ASA president is suspended, the two people in Swimming South Africa got suspended, it has never happened. It is because there's now accountability. There's a leader at the top, which is me, that does not allow nonsense. That's why people are being brought to book. Now they see that as incompetence. People were doing what they liked over the years. This is not a new phenomenon.These people do get money, but I also think people are emotional when it comes to this matter, and I can understand why. I am working behind the scenes. I fly out of this country to go meet these associations. I said it to World Athletics: you've got to remove these people in the meantime. After three months I will have all the power to act against organisations like this. What they've done to Tatjana, I think, and all the other athletes, was totally wrong.Gayton McKenzie (44:49) Our role starts with giving them money, and with the current act it stops there. They must just account for the money that we've given them. And we've given them the money. Government does not pay for people to go overseas. We don't have to pay for the Springboks. We don't have to pay for the Proteas. We don't do that. They have a board. They have a CEO. They must fundraise, they must get sponsorships in.But because we've got such incompetent people in some of these organisations, I have to tell you, when I came in I stopped all the money, and I was criticised for it, but I stopped it. And I went with a ruler through every organisation that does not comply. You get a federation like Wrestling SA, they more than just complied, and I gave them more money. Then you get organisations like Swimming South Africa.So I am just a victim of not yet having enough time to finish all these things as far as Tatjana is concerned. They owed her money, which they never paid her, before my time. When I became minister, the first person I think I honoured was Tatjana, twice. And she got all the money that was due to her with the prize. The prize came with money. I gave her that.I love Tatjana so much that even when she retired, I was the first one to persuade her. I said, you cannot stop. You cannot stop swimming after the Olympics. I literally went to get her to remain in, to not stop swimming. I said, your best years are still ahead of you. And when she was going to tell the country about this bombshell, that she's no longer swimming for South Africa, she let me know, out of respect for me. She notified me beforehand. I love that girl.Gayton McKenzie (46:44) I think it's a big loss to our country, but with that loss comes a big lesson: if we do not act right, we will lose a whole lot more Tatjanas. So this is an eye-opener for those people. But I can tell you, Swimming South Africa will not be there for long.And people say government doesn't pay for things. And then there come things like LIV Golf. LIV Golf made money for this country. What are you even talking about? LIV Golf put this country on the map.Gayton McKenzie (47:13) One thing LIV Golf did: it showed the world that there's no genocide here, because there were white males singing Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika on a golf course, and that was trending on CNN. And we spent under 100 million, but 1.3 billion. The fiscus made through taxes, hotels were fully booked. There was no space. We sold 104,000 tickets. But when people hate you, they don't see reason. So I'm saying to you that I paid for hockey to go. I paid for the under-20s last time to go. I was not supposed to have done that, honestly, but I did it because I am such a competent minister, and I couldn't let our athletes stay at home. And I'm talking to swimming now. This morning I was busy with Swimming South Africa, with the CEO of SASCOC Ms Nozipho Jafta. I woke her up, she's in Dakar. I said, wake up. I want to know how many athletes, how much.So people mustn't blame the firefighter when there's a fire. We will deal with these inept, corrupt sports officials. Some of them didn't even have offices when I took over. True story. They were operating out of the boot of a car, and they've been getting millions and millions and millions for 30 years. One of the things I'll never forget, I can't remember which sport it was, when I asked what this sport is, not even the officials of DSAC knew, but they've been paying them millions. So I'm saying to people, I understand the Tatjana issue, but I also think there's a financial...Gayton McKenzie (48:44) ...incentive for her, because she's a star. She's a golden girl. And sometimes... I think it was Roland Schoeman that got an offer of 20 million to swim for Dubai, and he didn't take it. And I think Tatjana also learned from that type of stuff, to say these officials don't care about us. Maybe Roland thought these people cared about them, but they didn't care about them. And I think Tatjana saw that. And I love her still. I still talk to her over the phone. I still send her messages and I wish her well. And she will always be our golden girl, because of all those medals she achieved under our flag. And I wish her the best. I can never wish her ill. The reason why some of these officials are so angry is because there's accountability. I don't just give money. I'm holding money back. They even took me to the portfolio committee for holding money back. And this is the reason why I'm holding money back. How do I pay people that don't have offices? People that fly business class while the athletes are... Myself,, hockey to sell, and then I brought sponsorship into football, brought sponsorship into rugby. But we must all learn from SARU and Wrestling South Africa how to run a federation properly. Thank you.Alec Hogg (50:12) Gayton, wonderful talking with you. Thanks for all the time that you've given us. Good luck with your negotiations, which are going on from here. The country depends on the kind of future that will give us a stable and prosperous South Africa, and you're a significant role player in all of that. Gayton McKenzie is the Minister of Sport in South Africa. He's also the leader of the Patriotic Alliance. And I'm Alec Hogg with your BizNews Edge.