Gayton McKenzie said he had no time to sue Helen Zille, but plenty to say about her. Five weeks before the local government elections, the Patriotic Alliance leader and Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture gave Alec Hogg his account of the Joburg coalition deal he said the DA had broken, called the DA a younger brother of the ANC, and ran through the councils he expected the PA to win outright. He explained, with a childhood story about jelly setting under a tree, how he thought the GNU would change after 4 November. On sport, he said old legislation had tied his hands as suspensions piled up at Swimming SA and beyond, and he named the venue he wanted for South Africa's Formula One return. Then he turned to crime, and explained why he believed the Constitution itself stood in the way..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Alec Hogg (00:01)Gayton McKenzie wears two hats, and both of them have been drawing fire of late on BizNews. As the leader of the Patriotic Alliance, he says he's already put together a coalition that will keep Helen Zille out of the mayoralty, or getting the mayoral chain, in Johannesburg. Zille came back strong on Friday. She likened the PA to the American Mafia of the early 1900s, and she pointed to Kenny Kunene's record at the Johannesburg Roads Agency. She chided me as well for not listening to what people say, but for looking at what they do.And then Corné Mulder of the Freedom Front Plus calls the PA one of the good guys. But the coalition that McKenzie is putting together includes the EFF and MK. And Mulder says he won't go near either of those; not the good guys in his mind.And then as Minister of Sport, well, McKenzie promised us a Formula One Grand Prix by 2027. Neal Froneman told us last week that 2031 is a realistic date, and that Liberty Media, not the government, will decide where it goes. And then we've got swimming. There, the president and chief executive of Swimming South Africa have finally been suspended. That action, though, came from World Aquatics, not from Pretoria. Adding to all of this, we're only five weeks away from the local government election. So I'm very interested to hear the minister's views and forecasts on how the PA is going to do in that.Lots to cover, Gayton. Thanks for being with us today. Let's start with Helen Zille. I'm sure you've mulled that over. A Mafia organisation of the 1920s. Gayton McKenzie (01:52)Alright. You know, particularly your listeners: if Helen Zille can say tomorrow, "Gayton McKenzie is pregnant", they will say, "Is it a boy or a girl?" They wouldn't ask how. Helen Zille lives in her own world. And you can go back on the clip. What I said, I said my prediction of how the coalition will look in Joburg is ANC, IFP, MK. That's my prediction.Helen Zille has said she does not want to work with the PA because we are a mafia organisation. Now, the Constitutional Court has found a lot of contraventions regarding the Democratic Alliance in the City of Cape Town. The Patriotic Alliance has beaten them in Stellenbosch in the last by-election. We've beaten them in the last by-election in Mossel Bay. We've beaten them three times in a row in George. We've beaten them in Drakenstein. These are like the blue heartlands where they were very strong. Now, don't take my word for it. Don't take Helen Zille's word for it. Take the voters' word for it.She comes on your show and she says, on the board, I put my baby mamas on the board. Now that's a lie. She lies. This woman lies unashamedly. Now that's so easy to prove who's lying. Let her give you the name of whoever has a child with me that's on the board. She comes here and she tells that lie unashamedly. Gayton McKenzie, so to find that out, it's so easy. Ask her which baby mama of mine sits on the board.Corné Mulder, I can tell you one thing about the Freedom Front Plus. You can take their word to the bank. When they say, "We'll not work with you", when they say, "We'll work with you", you can take that to the bank. You can have a handshake deal with them, that you cannot have with the DA.The last time, Alec, I was on holiday. We didn't work with the DA. Corné Mulder called me while I'm on holiday, says to me, John Steenhuisen and the DA want to have a peace meeting. I said, "Well, Corné, I don't trust him." He says, "No, I think this time it's for real." I came back from holiday. We shook hands. We agreed on how we're going to do the Joburg coalition: ActionSA, Freedom Front Plus, PA and the DA. Gayton McKenzie (04:17)We agreed, we mapped out the deal on a Friday. Sunday I opened the Sunday Times: the DA says they will not work with a criminal organisation. Joburg is in trouble because Helen Zille didn't keep her word. Mashaba tried everything to keep it together. And she goes around and says, "I will not work with this." I will work with anyone. I'll even work with the DA.I always say to you on your own show, I'll work with the Freedom Front Plus; I'd work with the AWB if they still existed. Because the voter says to you, "I don't trust you enough to give you an outright majority." So Helen Zille must learn how to become a good coalition partner. How is it only ActionSA complains, Freedom Front complains, IFP complains, PA complains? Why is it... it's like girls that say all men are dogs. That's the type of attitude. You cannot... she's been saying we are corrupt since 2014. Not a shred of evidence. Alec Hogg (05:22)But what about that? I thought about it, I reflected on it a bit. Some of the things that she said in my conversation with her, if I was on the other side of it, I would be talking to my lawyers. But in politics, it seems like anything goes. You can attack others, you can say heinous things about them, like you're a gangster organisation. Why don't you sue her? Gayton McKenzie (05:50)The problem is that, you see, I'm one person that I would listen to something and say, this is not a time... Between now and the 4th of November, you're not going to get me sitting with lawyers trying to sue people like that. Helen Zille, she makes the worst allegations about me. What she says is nothing compared to every day they're churning out posters and posters and posters and posters, every single day.That's why they're losing, because they have no campaign. They're concentrating on Gayton McKenzie. They're so scared of me that they spent 200 million on how to bring Gayton McKenzie down for more than 11 years. And still, I am the fastest growing... I'm part of the fastest-growing political party in the country. Now, I have no time to sue Helen Zille or anybody. We are focused. Why are they insulting? The one that insults is the one that's losing. The DA has now got influencers.This is not the DA of going door to door, talking to people. No, this is a DA that lies, a DA that's scandalous. I thought when Geordin Hill-Lewis was going to become... when he became the new leader, I thought this is a new way for us to... not work with the communists and the socialists, because we have a lot of the same outlook.And I don't see any difference. In fact, I think it's worse under Geordin Hill-Lewis than it was under Helen Zille. So I'm not going to back down to nobody. But I'm saying to you today on the show that we will work even with the DA. But the DA needs to really change the attitude and learn from the Freedom Front Plus. Learn from ActionSA. You know, I don't really like Mashaba. But I can tell you one thing: once you agree with him on something, you can shake hands on it. With the DA, you shake hands, you have to count your fingers after that. Alec Hogg (07:54)Mm. What is it that you have as common ground? I suggested some things to Helen Zille, and she said, "No, no, you don't know what you're talking about." Gayton McKenzie (08:04)No, what does she mean? We believe in property rights, number one. We don't believe in expropriation without compensation. We believe that BEE should change in its current format. We believe in so many things that they believe in that is not popular to believe in. But she would want to put distance between the PA and her, which works for us.It's like... I'm saying to you today that Helen Zille is missing a great opportunity, where ActionSA, Freedom Front Plus, IFP and the Patriotic Alliance can form a coalition. But no, she must be honest. You see, the problem with Helen Zille is she thinks she knows the ANC. She thinks she's smarter than the ANC. She is angling for a coalition with the ANC in the City of Joburg. They will eat a large breakfast, then they'll have a late-night coffee.I think she does not know. Helen thinks she's so smart. The ANC, listen, I tell you today, they will eat her for lunch. You know, I hate people like her. They think they possess all the smartness in politics. And for me, that we went into the GNU, I can tell you, the ANC is not a pushover as she wants to make out.And, you know, unpopular sentiment: on your show, I once said to you, and people booed me when you invited me, when I said Jacob Zuma is going to do well. And they were saying, "No, Jacob Zuma is not going to be a factor." And I was the only one there that said Jacob Zuma is going to do the best. No, Jacob Zuma is like Coca-Cola. Whether it's good for you or bad for you, people still drink it.The MK and Zuma is going to become... it's going to be the one party that's not going to die. And Helen Zille hates the PA. We equally hate her. And we'll work with her, because she's not personal. She's personalised politics. She brings in my family. She brings in my kids. I can talk. Her husband is very ill. He needs her. Gayton McKenzie (10:33)But you don't see us talking about those type of stuff. We're trying to be gentlemen. We're trying to run a clean campaign as the PA. We are the fastest-growing political party. And, you know, she says we are... here's the main one, Alec. She says we are... the PA, we are the ANC's stooge. Now, between 2021 and 2026, we've taken more seats from the ANC than we've taken from the DA, as the PA. Now just that fell flat.If you say we are the ANC's stooge, how come that we've won more wards from the ANC than from the Democratic Alliance? How come that the DA is allowed to vote out the PA in Beaufort West with the ANC together? They voted us out. So then they went further in Laingsburg, the DA and the ANC. So the DA is just a younger version of the ANC. Same lineage, same blood. Alec Hogg (11:28)Mm. Gayton McKenzie (11:30)Two brothers: the one is younger, one is 30 years old, the one is 20 years old. These people are the same thing. Alec Hogg (11:39)What about Beaufort West? She said you can't go back there. Gayton McKenzie (11:43)This is the senile thinking. Let us see on the fourth what I do get in Beaufort West. You know, sometimes I look at the DA and I'm like, are you talking really about me? They have this, you know, they have this thing about me: "Gayton McKenzie, he's here for the blue lights." Come on. They talk... in Beaufort West, the DA says I can't go back to Beaufort West. How is that even a thing? How do you mean I can't go back to Beaufort West? In two weeks I'm sending you a video when I'm going to address the people in Beaufort West. And I'll send you the video.It comes down to one thing. Sometimes we must put our egos aside and try to work together. Now, she said one day that I admitted about something we did wrong. Corné Mulder says, "I was in that conversation, there was never something like that."You cannot work with Helen Zille. She is impossible. Helen Zille is impossible to work with. Now forget about the PA, because we are biased when it comes to Helen Zille. What about ActionSA? What about Freedom Front Plus? What about IFP? ActionSA? It can't be that all of us complain about one person. The DA must learn how to become a good coalition partner. And you can't say a person is corrupt for 14 years or 11 years.They've been saying I'm corrupt. Surely you must go to the cops if you have some information of any wrongdoing on my part. Why don't they do that? A government official has a fiduciary duty to report wrongdoing. Why are they not reporting this thing to the police? But they're reporting it to press conferences. They lie about me, and that's why the voters are punishing them. Alec Hogg (13:41)How is it going with the PA going into the election, five weeks on? Can you give me an estimate? You used to love doing that for me. Give me forecasts, and they were right, and they were right. Where are you seeing yourselves land in, say, Joburg and Nelson Mandela Bay, which is another big one? Cape Town? Gayton McKenzie (13:50)Yeah. Gayton McKenzie (14:03)Alec, you know, I think I once saw an interview of you where you admitted that I've never been wrong when it comes to predictions. I've been giving you predictions since I've met you. And I've always told you the right thing.This is George: the PA will win George outright. Saldanha will have a coalition, in Saldanha. Matzikama will win outright. City of Cape Town: the DA is going to fall to 38%. Boland, the Drakenstein area, Swartland: the DA will get 37%. City of Joburg: the DA is going to get a little bit more than what they got last time, but not enough to form a government outside the ANC. But if the DA, the PA, ActionSA, IFP, Freedom Front Plus, if we work together, I think we can kick the ANC out in the City of Joburg, which...The problem is that nobody wants to work with Helen. It's not a DA problem, it's a Helen Zille problem. Tshwane: I do think that the DA and Freedom Front Plus and ActionSA, they mustn't think they'll do that without ActionSA, I do think the three of them have a great advantage to win that. I think Zuma's going to fall at 47% in... 47% in eThekwini, which is a big one. We are hoping to get three and a half percent so that we can form a coalition with him there. Yeah, I'll work with Jacob Zuma. I told you, if I can work with the AWB, why can I not work with Jacob Zuma? It's politics. We don't bring our egos or whatever. As long as I know Jacob Zuma would not make me want to... will not... Alec Hogg (15:56)Take when you... Alec Hogg (16:06)Yeah. With Jacob Zuma. Gayton McKenzie (16:23)I won't allow anybody to make me do the wrong thing. If I'm in coalition with a person and you are doing the wrong thing, I will expose you. But you see, it's very dangerous. I remember Mashaba was saying on your show one day, I was sitting and you were interviewing us, and I just did this. Mashaba was saying... you're asking us about policies. Mashaba says, "I don't care about that. I just want to remove the ANC. I don't want to see the ANC." Like the whole...How would they treat us there? He was just talking about how he wants to remove the ANC. Today, he works with the ANC. The DA took out adverts in 2024: "Gayton McKenzie wants to take your vote to the ANC." Today, they are working with the ANC. So let us not come with this, like, "Don't work with this one." Politicians: power. When you are in a room and power is seeping out of your hand, they will say yes to any bride. I can tell you that today.Don't listen to the stories. I have never, in my 15 years in politics, I've never met any party that said "I will not work"... I'm talking about myself. I don't like Malema. But there was a time when it was either we are not in power in Joburg or we work with Malema. And I said, let's work together. So people rather come and try to fool the voters. I'm saying today, I will work even with Helen Zille if I have to, begrudgingly. I will work with Helen Zille.So I think the PA is going to do well, when nobody sees this, in two places. Northern Cape: we will definitely do very, very well, the whole of the Northern Cape. You will not touch the ANC in Mpumalanga. You will not touch the ANC in Limpopo. We put minimal resources there because the ANC is just so strong there, in Limpopo and Mpumalanga. In Mangaung, we are all waiting to hear what the ANC is going to do, because there's two ballot papers and they are only on one ballot paper. Gayton McKenzie (18:31)Now we are all waiting: who are they going to say to the people to vote with? The DA... vote with the ANC, sorry, vote with the PA, or vote with the SACP, or vote with the EFF? Everybody's waiting for that, because they're not winning this Constitutional Court matter. Mangaung, for me, is where I think the PA is going to do the best. I'm a Bloemfontein boykie, and what we've done in Bloemfontein... Alec Hogg (18:58)Okay. Gayton McKenzie (19:01)...the family, I think people will reward the PA because of what we've done, what my family has done in Bloemfontein.Then, as far as the coalition is concerned, and this is the only way I can explain it to you, Alec... You have to be really poor to understand it. So I don't think you will really understand it. You have to grow up in poverty to understand this example. The GNU is going to change. The GNU is going to change.Now, South Africa has entered the era of the GNU, of coalitions. It is unavoidable. It's not going to change. The era of coalitions is there. The only two places it will still hold out is Limpopo and Mpumalanga. The ANC can still go another four, five or even 10 years without a coalition there. Now, why do I say you have to be poor to understand my example? The GNU is going to change after this election. Not in 2027; after this election. Alec Hogg (19:45)Mm-hmm. Gayton McKenzie (20:00)How is it going to change? If you grew up not with a fridge, like us, your mother will make jelly and she'll put the jelly under a tree. That's where poverty comes in: under a tree. When it's under a tree, it will set in the shade. That's the GNU for you. It is now set. The GNU is set. It's set. But then she brings... my mom brings the jelly. My father loves custard. My sister loves cream. I love ice cream.So then you will decide: do you put cream, do you put ice cream, or do you put custard on the jelly? But the jelly is set, being the main ingredient. The GNU is the main ingredient. The different parties are the jelly, custard, the ice cream, the cream. That is going to change. Any party that does not do well now, that's part of the GNU, will be discarded. That's my opinion: will be discarded.And it's not necessarily a bad thing for South Africa. It's actually a good thing, to show that this concept of coalition government, of a government of national unity, has passed its litmus test. I disagree with Corné Mulder when he says that GNU partners don't talk to each other. That's not correct. Maybe his minister is not briefing him on what's happening in Cabinet.Maybe he's not briefing him on how we relate to each other, all of us. The GNU is... when we started, we said we'll meet every month, because we were a bit scared, like, you know, we don't know how this thing is going to be. But we realised, like, listen, man, we're all solid, including the DA. Including the DA. All of us work very, very nicely there. Probably because Helen is not there. I'm just joking. But we work very, very nicely as the GNU.The biggest mistake, I can tell you, is that people sometimes tell voters what they think the voter wants to hear. I have no hope that your listeners will vote for me. I have no hope of that. So I'll tell them exactly what is on my mind, to say to them that South African politics is going now to the era of the left and the right. Gayton McKenzie (22:26)As people that feel expropriation without compensation... that's absolute rubbish if you want to build a country. It will not work. I said to you that I would love compensation... expropriation without compensation. But will that be good for the country? It will not be good for the country. Alec Hogg (22:48)It's interesting, and you'd be surprised at how many of our BizNews tribe actually will vote for you. It's a big tribe, Gayton. It's a big tribe. But... Gayton McKenzie (22:57)No, you've got a massive tribe in BizNews, that I know, I tell you. I walk in the street, people are like, "I saw you on BizNews. I saw you on BizNews." Alec Hogg (23:01)Yeah. Alec Hogg (23:05)Yeah. They're not your enemies, but they are cross with you about what's going on in sport, especially Swimming South Africa. And I'll take you back to the BizNews Conference, what was it, two [years] ago, where Tatjana was there, and I saw the two of you hugging, and it was an exciting time, and it looked like we were going to get Swimming South Africa back on track. What's happened? Just maybe unpack from your perspective. Gayton McKenzie (23:33)No, no, let me unpack this for you. I'm very glad that you're coming to that. Because I heard one journalist say that people have maybe dirt on me. That's why I'm not acting against them. I was shocked that he could make such an allegation, for a journalist of his nature to think a guy like me... you can... I will not act because you have dirt on me. Let me now unpack it for the listeners.Firstly, let's all agree that sport has never been this good in our country as it is now. This weekend alone, the Springbok Women won, Bafana Bafana won, we've got a new WBC champion, the cricket, the Proteas won. So sport is really doing well at the moment. But you must understand, I have inherited a cesspit of wrong that has been happening in all the sports, most of the sporting codes.I found that people that get... first of all, federations get money from government, all of them. But some of them, when I came in, they didn't even have offices. They would operate out of the boot of their cars. I stopped all those monies and said, "Show me your office, let's fix this." Now there's a Sport and Recreation Act, which we are busy changing. That Act binds my hands a bit. I cannot just fire... it's not allowed for me to fire the chairperson of, let's say, Swim SA. I don't have the powers.But then I found the loophole. I will show you in athletics what I did. The same thing in Swim SA, everywhere. I found the loophole. I said, "You know what? Let me speak to the mother body," like in World Athletics. The guy was found with his credit card buying at Foschini, buying stuff for his girlfriend. And he said McKenzie will not touch me, because he knew the Sport and Recreation Act does not allow me. What did I do? I went up, while I'm busy changing the Sport and Recreation Act. He's removed. Today, the SASCOC president has been removed. Let's look at the Comrades Marathon. What they've... to the people that arrange the Comrades Marathon. They were totally abusing those people. Gayton McKenzie (26:03)I had to step in. The same with Swimming South Africa. Legislatively, like, currently... but in two months, that is going to change. So what I'm doing, Alec, listen, I've never worked so hard to fix sport and to get rid of the bad guys in sport. But I've inherited legislation that was done amongst comrades. When have you seen so many people being fired?These people are being removed. Netball South Africa. I have a hand in most of those things. And I'm saying to people, I understand why they're frustrated. I'm equally frustrated. That's why I am changing, for the first time in 20 years, 25 years, the Sport and Recreation Act, so that I can act immediately. Then people come... the last point when it comes to that: Gayton McKenzie... And I mean, like, I went out and I told ASA and I told... the Comrades Marathon will happen, and they said it will not happen.I came in at Chess South Africa. I fixed Chess South Africa together with the new leadership, and we removed the old leadership. Now Chess South Africa is on the up. Boxing South Africa: it's the first time they got, like, a clean audit. So I'm not saying those things to... I'm giving you facts. So if you're angry with me for the fact that I've not been getting rid of the guys at Swim SA, I understand your frustration. I would be angry with Gayton too, but now you have the facts. The people are shocked that I'm now changing the Sport and Recreation Act, because I want to deal with you. I had a meeting two weeks ago with World Athletics [and World Aquatics] where I said to them, we have to deal with this person, this person, this person. It cannot be. So I hope I've answered you, that my hands were tied. Alec Hogg (28:00)How did those people get into those positions of power to start with? A lot of them don't seem to have even played the sports that they are administering. Gayton McKenzie (28:11)Here's the main thing that you must understand, and we mustn't run away from it. These people were doing all this wrongdoing because they thought they had political protection.For the first time, they all ask, "What's happening? There's no more political protection." This is not a new thing. It has been coming on and on and on. Now, for the first time, people are reporting... I've been holding monies back. I have come in and I said... Boxing South Africa, got rid of the whole board, everybody there. I said, go. That has never happened. Because some of those guys, you'll hear maybe he's a chairperson in a branch, which is... if you touch him, he will extract revenge from you when he has to vote for you. I have none of those problems.I am saying to you that Boxing South Africa, Chess South Africa and all those... you see, there are bright stars, like Wrestling South Africa. But there are some people... and I came in here and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I worked day and night to fix our sport, to bring big events to South Africa.You speak about the F1. Neal was at my house, Neal Froneman. Neal came to tell us their plan. If Neal says that he doesn't need government, then he's on the wrong horse. You can't have an F1 without government. Let's start right there. If he thinks he's going to have an F1... I thought you said... Alec Hogg (29:49)Mm. He didn't say that, by the way. He didn't say that. No, no. He did not say that he didn't need government, for sure. Not when I spoke to him, anyway. Gayton McKenzie (29:58)So what Neal and them are doing, for me, it's a very good thing. I'll tell you why. We were looking at 2027, 2028. There are certain things, and we are at a delicate stage where government has to now, in the next two to three weeks... we have to come up with a guarantee. Cabinet has agreed to the guarantee. We have to come up with a guarantee. But I'm going to be straight with you. This is probably breaking news: it will be held at Kyalami.Now, that doesn't mean that it will not be held where Neal Froneman and them are. You've got Imola and you've got Monza in Italy. So we will... but we're not going to wait until 2031. At the moment, all our plans that we've presented to F1, we look at 2028 realistically. But if we as government don't come out with a guarantee in the next two to three weeks, we are dead in the water.Cabinet has agreed. I spoke to the Minister of Finance, and we can have the first few years at Kyalami. And when Neal and them... you know, he's got my respect. And the more the merrier, and we'll support them. For me, it's anything that brings tourists, sports tourists, to our country is welcome. But we're looking at Kyalami. If we get that money within three weeks, the guarantee, Kyalami will be our preferred currently, because we can't back something that's not even been built yet. Kyalami is there. Alec Hogg (31:42)Why are you so keen on Formula One? Have you had a passion for the sport? Or do you just see that it's such a huge international and growing part of the whole sports arena? Gayton McKenzie (31:57)One of the things that I think the ANC government had failed in dismally, when I became a minister, was they saw sport, arts and culture as entertainment, and they did not look at it as a business. They don't look at it as a business of sport, they don't look at it as a business of arts, they don't look at it as a business of culture, while the whole world sees it as a business.Qatar, everybody wants to host stuff. And I had to change that amongst my colleagues, to say this is a real business. Currently, in this form that we're in, we contribute the same amount, I think 2.6%, to the GDP. That's the same amount that agriculture contributes. But if you look at countries like China and America, it's like between 5 and 7% of the contribution to GDP comes from sport, art and culture.And I realised... look at LIV Golf. We brought LIV Golf here, we spent like a hundred million, and LIV Golf came back and there was a huge return on investment: taxes, hotels were fully booked, you couldn't find a restaurant and stuff. And I realised that the world, places like Dubai and the UAE, I realised that that's what they do. So it's not only F1. Let me tell you the things in the pipeline.We have SportAccord. We are going to get an announcement on the 26th of November, sorry, of October. SportAccord is when 3,000 of all the sporting bosses are coming to your country. And it's a great opportunity. We've applied for that. We are in the process of applying for the Commonwealth Games, the first time it comes to Africa. We have had negotiations to have the 2036 Olympics in South Africa. It's never been in Africa. Gayton McKenzie (33:55)We have applied for the Africa Cup of Nations. We have put our hand up for the F1. We went to try to get Dricus [du Plessis] to fight here. It made no economic sense. I just stood back from it because commercially you couldn't just... you have to sell one ticket at 14,000 rand. You couldn't justify that. We are trying to bring big events here. Like you saw the Greatest Rivalry tour. We are trying to bring Arsenal here; we met with the people of Arsenal. We are trying to bring big concerts here, all of that, because it just stimulates the economy. And that is what other countries are doing. Football, soccer, is not as big in America as it is in Europe or in Africa, but they had one of the most successful World Cups in America. So that's what I want to do.So I want to say to some of the listeners, I know it's frustrating. It is for me too sometimes, the pace at which these things happen. But we're going to unravel a lot of stuff. You look at the money for Tatjana. Tatjana got a prize from us, from me as a minister. She got a prize years after she won it. It's so frustrating. You don't understand. It's so frustrating, because government has all these layers for 30 years that people just assume it must be like that. And people now abuse that.So you've got to come and say, no, it's not going to be like that. Sport... you can speak to Rassie. You can speak to the cricket coach, [Shukri] Conrad. You can speak to all of them; they will tell you the help I give them that the public might not see. When they had simple things... we had to get the national anthem on the new T-shirt, and I said, no, no, bring it straight to my desk. Let's work with it.So I'm just saying that I'm also learning that sometimes I make mistakes, one or two. I could have done it this way. Because I'm also a first-time minister, not everything I do is perfect. But I can tell you the will is there, the heart is there and the energy is there. And now, after this election, we will do so well that you will see that... Gayton McKenzie (36:21)...this country, we are not where we used to be. We are not where we should be. But we are definitely not where we used to be. So we are getting there. And the GNU, I think we work very well together. Alec Hogg (36:32)Hmm. Well, it's a very positive and an upbeat conversation that we've had. But I want to bring you back, to close off, to eThekwini, to Durban, and in particular to Duduzane Zuma, who was at our last BizNews Conference and was very straight. He said, "We're here, we're not going anywhere, you need to talk to us." But like you, he also spoke with an approach from business. And I think anybody watching this will say, wow, at last we've got someone running the sports portfolio who realises that it's very good for the country to bring in tourists in these major sport events. Can you work with Duduzane? Is he the guy that you're talking to, given that he's now the heir apparent? Gayton McKenzie (37:20)Yeah, look, listen, Duduzane is going to take over MK. Well, obviously, I know him very well. He's a businessman. We get along very well. He gets along with everybody. He's really, really a fine gentleman, I can tell you. And I think where he differs with his father, in my opinion, is his father is the most... who is more liked than him, more well-liked than him by different quarters.With Duduzane, what you see is what you get. He's not faking when he says he's for business. And the truth that people don't want to know, even some of my close friends: I think that is what Cyril Ramaphosa... for me, one of the best things he's done was when the ANC took a resolution that they must expropriate land without compensation, he then came and said, you've got to do this thing right, otherwise you'll have no country left.Now I am saying, and I'm not even making a secret of it, what I differ with Duduzane on is his approach. We agree on pro-business, and he believes in the Constitution. Well, I don't believe in the Constitution. I believe that the problems that we're having as a country... the Constitution is an impediment. It is in our way to really sort out our problems. People have found loopholes. Criminals have found loopholes in the Constitution. How can you rent somebody's house and you don't pay, and that person takes two years to evict you because of our Constitution? How can somebody steal at your workplace and because of your Constitution you cannot fire that person immediately? I'm just saying that we should suspend the Constitution to fix our problems.You know, people kill people willy-nilly. We have 37 people dying one day. Those killers should be hanged. Under my government, they will be hanged. I am far left, far right. I am saying to you that we can have a constitution, but this one is a bit too lenient for the type of problems. People have taken people's businesses in the City of Joburg. They've taken people's buildings in the City of Joburg. It's been six years. Gayton McKenzie (39:44)People are still in court spending money. The business people are being bled dry. Under my government, they will take that building at three o'clock; at half past three they will be out. And I'm being unapologetic about that, because I come from the crime world. I know how ruthless that world is, how they don't care about the prosperity of the country, but only about their prosperity.And you look at Nayib Bukele. It's the best example of a president. Nayib Bukele, at the 46 a day murder rate... We are at 62. Today, El Salvador is the second-safest country in the world after Canada. El Salvador has got one murder a year. And he had to suspend the constitution and put the country under a state of emergency. It cannot be that our farmers are being killed like this. It cannot be that the people on the Cape Flats are being murdered like that. It cannot be that somebody walks into a tavern...Because the very same person that kills 13 people today might be out in the street tomorrow. So I'm just saying to South Africans, and my offering to them is: if you don't want the death penalty in 2029, you should never vote for me, because I'm bringing the death penalty back, day one. On my way to the office, I already called them: come, put the paperwork together for that. But this country, I can tell you, you know, you look at...Today at lunch, there were a few friends that wanted to understand the PA. And the one gentleman said to me, and he touched me deeply, in stories that people don't hear. He says to me, a white guy says, "Why is it that I have to pay 36,000 rand for my domestic helper's daughter to go and play netball?" And I explained to him, I said to him, when you put your hand up to become a CEO of Netball SA, or Cricket SA, or Wrestling SA, you must have the necessary skill to get capital in, to bring sponsorship. I said, I don't pay for the rugby players to go play elsewhere. I don't pay for the cricket players to go and play. I don't pay for them because the people running those institutions know what they're doing.And the story that I didn't miss was that here's a person that pays for his domestic worker's [daughter]. And that's the South Africans that you never hear about. I mean, the thing of "kill the boer, kill the farmer"... Gayton McKenzie (42:09)...anybody that says that should just be locked up immediately and be taken out. I mean, these are simple things where I disagree.You talk about Elon Musk. People say they don't want Elon Musk. Gayton McKenzie, [if] I was the leader, and Elon Musk wants to invest in South Africa, I would say I will change every rule for Elon to come here. Not because of Elon, but for the fact that if the richest man in the world invests in your country, it shows the country's investable to the rest of the world. And as a business person, I will change the rules for Elon Musk. And I differ with the ANC and the President on that matter.Because when Elon does business here, you tell him, listen, don't you just want to be in Boksburg. Let the rocket go up there, whatever. You can just talk to the guy. But once Elon invests in your country, forget the name Elon Musk.Think about the richest guy in the world saying to the world, South Africa is a safe haven, I can invest. But people are so stuck on rules, and business... Business works like that. Hotels will always keep one room open, for if the greatest customers come, they must always have a room. And that's how business works. Business is bendable. And business is not as rigid as the thinking of some of our politicians. Alec Hogg (43:37)Hm. Well, I'm sure that... Gayton McKenzie (43:38)Can I just say the last thing also? Can I say the last thing, please? I've seen your readers saying that: "Gayton McKenzie's up the ass of Cyril Ramaphosa." You must have heard that. Alec Hogg (43:49)I've seen it. Gayton McKenzie (43:50)Now, yes, they told you... I want to end with it. Gayton McKenzie, the minister: there are 62 million people in this country. President Ramaphosa called me. Out of 62 million people he could have called, he called me. He asked me, "Minister, I would like you to be part of my Cabinet. My Cabinet. Do you agree?" I said yes. Gayton McKenzie (44:07)If I still wanted to fight Cyril Ramaphosa every day, I should have stayed outside, like the Malemas of this world. But that day I took a conscious decision that you are my boss as a minister. He's my boss. He's the boss of every minister. If you don't think he's your boss... if you want a day off, who do you ask? If you want to travel, who do you write to? You write to your boss. We all write to him.Now, in election time, he's a president, I'm a president. I am dealing with him differently on the level of being the PA president than I deal with him on the level of being a minister. Now I am fighting him so that we can beat them in places like the Western Cape. We want to become second in the Western Cape. I'm not saying you're my boss there, because he's not my boss during election time, because now I'm the president of the PA. But when it comes to work, I report to him.I'm not going to come and make myself big and whatever. If I want to fight Cyril Ramaphosa, which I can, I must step out of his Cabinet. And I think that, for me, is just common decency. Alec Hogg (45:18)I think there are a lot of people from the business community who will be listening to this and perhaps have their eyes opened in a different way. Minister McKenzie, Gayton, lovely to have you back on BizNews TV. Look forward to the next time. And I'm looking forward to those predictions of yours after November the fourth. Gayton McKenzie is the leader of the Patriotic Alliance, and he is the Minister of Sport, and I'm Alec Hogg. Gayton McKenzie (45:38)Thank you