Listen here.In his latest interview with Chris Steyn, ActionSA President Herman Mashaba speaks about the collapse of service delivery in Johannesburg where he is campaigning for a second stint as Mayor. He reveals the shocking admission made to him by current African National Congress (ANC) Mayor Dada Morero, and why he doesn’t speak to the Democratic Alliance’s (DA’) Helen Zille. He gives an update on the achievements of Tshwane’s ActionSA Mayor, Dr Nosiphi Moya, and the campaign of MP Dereleen James for Cape Town’s next Mayor. As for his own “unfinished business” in Jo’burg, he says: “I have the 10 MMCs designated that in the event I'm elected, we will hit the ground running immediately. And these are not my friends. These are people who know what they are doing. They've got enough time to study their portfolios so that all of us can hit the ground running immediately. There's no one ready to tend the city of Johannesburg like I do. Others are busy swimming in potholes.” On the anti-immigration sentiment sweeping SA, Mashaba warns: “..these marches are not going to stop because you dismiss the grievances of South Africans at your own peril”. He also confirms a rumour that the Jo’burg mayoral chain is missing.”... it disappeared long before my time. So I don't know what it looks like and where it is.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:00.77)The long-suffering residents of some of the country's biggest metros are pinning their hopes on new leadership after the local government elections. With me is Mr. Herman Mashaba, the President of Action SA - and he hopes to wear the mayoral chain in Johannesburg a second time. Welcome, Sir.Herman (00:23.013)Yes, good morning Chris - and yes, absolutely. I was just listening to radio now still in bed and really looking at the state of the city of Johannesburg last night coming back home. I realised Pikit Up has not picked up our rubbish since Friday. They normally pick it up on Friday before 12. So last night I came home I saw our trash was still outside and I asked my wife what's happening. And they are heading the news this morning that they don't have money to pay the suppliers. I mean, how disgraceful it can be. They've just passed a budget a few weeks ago, an unfunded budget for that matter.Chris Steyn (01:12.91)I mean, we are seeing alarming reports about the financial state of the city of Johannesburg being practically bankrupt. How close is it or how close could it be to collapse?Herman (01:26.675)Well, look, because we don't have direct access to the finances and other issues in the city. I mean, I know from our caucus in Johannesburg that this administration…the MMCs fail to attend Section 79 committee meetings. So honestly, we don't really have a full grasp. We can only really guess as to what the problem is. But I think, for me, I remember in 2024 when I removed Cillers Brink from Tshwane after many years of, two years of, abuse by the DA. I then decided to remove him. But at the time, I'm sure you're aware, I didn't want to put the city under administration because no one can govern…the two blocks of the ANC, EFF and DA, Freedom Front Plus. None of them can govern without me. And I felt, let me try something else. This is the will of the people. And that's when I approached the ANC to say, look, guys, I'm not prepared to put this capital city under administration. I'm prepared to give you my vote on condition that I take over the leadership. That's how things happened.And you remember the city of Tshwane for four years in a row before we took over presenting unfunded budgets, owing ESKOM over seven billion rands. And look at what Dr. Nasiphi Moya has done. But now coming back to Joburg, what is relevant is that immediately after that, the ANC then requested me to assist them and work with them in the city of Johannesburg…to that I said : look, we can do it, but I'm not coming into the executive where we don't lead. And I don't think it'll be fair for me to expect to lead Tshwane and Johannesburg. Give us the legislature and the speaker so that we can hold you accountable. Unfortunately, they thought ActionSA it's a voting kettle. That's why it ended up with us pulling out of that arrangement.Herman (03:49.475)What happened, two months into the administration, Dada Morero called me and I had the time with him at home because he wanted advice. And in our discussion, I was really frank with him. I said, Dada, one of the big mistakes I believe you've made is the appointment of your MMC of Finance, Margaret Arnold. I said, I have absolutely no personal issues with Margaret… But to put it as MMC of Finance, this is a very, very strategic position. You need someone who's going to assist you as a mayor. You need to collect money. You need someone who understands finances. And you know what he said to me? He said, no, I put her there because I want to control her. I nearly fell off my chair. I said, what the hell are you talking? I said, Dada, how can you appoint people on the basis of control? Why do you want to control people? You put people around you to assist you, to compliment you. And I reported this to the ANC province, even some of the national structures about what I've just heard from Dada Morero. So for me, this is not coming as a surprise.Chris Steyn (05:11.307)Now Dada Marero has gone and blamed you, your stewardship, for the city's financial issues.Herman (05:18.967)Well, unfortunately, Dada Morero forgets that the city of Johannesburg is audited by the Auditor General. And I challenge anyone to really look at the city of Johannesburg during the three years as the mayor. More especially the last three years. The first year, they made life difficult for me. You remember they used to collapse the government….to get COSATU and the SACP every time disrupt the council meetings and so forth. But because I was determined, I'm not an easy person to be pushed. By the third year, in 2019, please just look at the numbers of the city of Johannesburg. In 2019, the last year when I resigned, we were literally having record-breaking revenue collection. And it wasn't happening because of luck. It was happening because I had put measures in place. I had the right MMC of Finance. I had the right Section 59 person to run the finances of the city. I was after all the illegal connection. I was after corruption, 35 billion rands of fraud and corruption. You know, during that period, we discovered using technology that the ANC…was taking over 2000 properties from the city's billing system. Over 2000. And I share this with ActionSA… these are the problems. But we were bringing them in, we were making them pay from the data we removed from the system, and they started paying properties. Half a billion rands of property, you find it in our books, it's valued at 50 million rands.So these are things that didn't happen by chance. Look at Tshwane. In fact, the other day on my way to Durban on Thursday, I was reading some of the news. The city of Tshwane in June of this year, they collected over 400 million rands over budget. Over 400 million in one month over budget.Herman (07:42.184)I'm sure you know and I'm sure you see Dr. Nasiphi Moya every day. She's in tekkies, she's in overall, switching off big, small companies, collecting money for the residents. Something that has never happened. That seven billion rands owed to Eskom, I'm sure right now it must be sitting at close to three billion. And the city of Tshwane is up to date with our payments. The city of Tshwane...It's in sourcing a lot of critical issues like refuse collections, buying our own trucks so that we don't rely on outside services. And that's actually governance. And we are providing services to all the communities, people of Hammanskraall where I come from and the reason why I had to personally remove Cilliers Brink, relying on our support, refusing to provide services to poor black communities. Going to those communities today. Tarred roads, we don't just really patch up potholes. When we don't swim into potholes, we resurface the main roads in those communities. So this is what ActionSA is all about. And that's the reason why eventually I accepted, obviously with pressure from my party, from the residents of Johannesburg that I come back. I've got unfinished business because you remember I left Joburg when evil forces wanted me out of the city. So I am coming back. I have unfinished business that I believe I owe it to the people of Johannesburg to go and finish their job.Chris Steyn (09:35.661)Well, the one person who is campaigning very, very hard to stop you from coming back is the Democratic Alliance's Helen Zille. I know you do not want to debate her publicly, but do the two of you ever speak privately?Herman (09:49.105)I have no business to speak to Helen. I don't speak to someone that I know is going to lie to me. I don't want to waste my time.Chris Steyn (10:26.635)Over to Cape Town, where you have fielded Dereleen James for mayor. Now, the current mayor, Hill-Lewis is taking flak because the city has lost its clean audit status. And Ms. James has gained a huge following during Parliament's Ad Hoc Committee hearings into police and political capture. Do you think she's going to give him a go?Herman (10:55.703)Well, I think, you know, our decision as a party to field Dereleen was also honestly pressure from the residents of Cape Town. After seeing her performance during the Ad Hoc committee, we personally received letters from civil organisations, especially coming from the coloured communities to say. Can you please give us Dereleen as our mayoral candidate? After serious consideration and listening, discussing it with Athol Trollip as the caucus leader and all of us as the leadership, we agreed it's the right thing to do for the people of Cape Town. Yeah, and people really love, they don't like her, they love her. She fights for them every day. She's committed to Cape Town. Yeah, we're confident of making a mark, chances of her emerging as a mayor in the city of Cape Town, not with the majority. I don't think we'll get the majority, but we can have the right numbers that can ensure that...the coloured and other communities in Cape Town also for the first time start receiving services that they deserve. So yeah, she's working hard. I spent the weekend with her in KZN because the coloured community in Durban, when they heard we were coming, they said, can you please bring Dereleen with us? And...with me. So yeah, she spent the full Friday and Saturday…And yeah, we excited. She's back in Cape Town. I'm sure wherever she is, she's hitting the ground running to make sure that as part of doing parliamentary work, she is campaigning. We've managed to get a very good Capetonian to be her campaign manager. And yeah, we're giving her all the support to ensure thatHerman (13:14.007)…people of Cape Town can really understand that services can be provided to all the communities. And that's really what we want. We don't want the city to look at Cape Town, the most expensive city in the world…you heard on Thursday, the Constitutional Court regarding the selling of property, where they're supposed to have built affordable accommodation. These are things that… got me to really have a problem with the DA when I was the mayor, when I was reclaiming the city of Johannesburg properties, asking me when I said, I'm not selling those properties, I'm expropriating them, but I'm not selling them. I'm giving them to the private sector on a long lease. And when they build the unit, 30 percent of the properties, every building, 30% must be for low income earners and students. And some in the DA didn't like this…said I must leave this to the market forces. I said, no, man, this inequality in this country wasn't created by nature. It was created by policies. So we need political policies to correct this. So I said, no, you guys do what you want. That's why they then decided to come out with a campaign to call me EFF Mayor. I'm sure they must have used Resolve Communication to discredit me. You can imagine me, Herman Mashaba, being called an EFF Mayor. So yeah, this is just to give an example of my commitment. People think because I'm a capitalist, I have no heart. I'm in politics, I do this job, I don't get paid. My family is one of the biggest funders of ActionSA because we want South Africa to have a political party with a heart.Chris Steyn (15:17.269)Sir, I want to talk to you about the anti-immigrant protests. To what extent do you think it is being fueled by the deaths of so many children from contaminated snacks bought at foreign Spaza shops? I remember you were out in Soweto that time when so many children died.Herman (15:37.245)Well, it's not only just really the death of our children. It's these criminals, I call them criminals because these are people who are in my country illegally and no one must expect me, I must not call them anything else. They are criminals. They are actually intimidating, killing our people, opening businesses in our communities. And what is actually, we're seeing a new trend ever since the GNU came into power, where big businesses are ignoring South Africans, giving preference to undocumented illegal foreigners. So all this, and I want to assure South Africans, it is like fighting Apartheid. This GNU of ANC and DA government, it's a curse to this country. And no one is going to stop South Africans. Like we defeated Apartheid. Because ANC and DA, like an Apartheid government, they are curse to this nation. Because, as I said, ever since the two got together, businesses are now preferring undocumented illegal foreigners ahead of South Africans. But one thing for sure, these marches are not going to stop because you dismiss the grievances of South Africans at your own peril.Chris Steyn (17:02.742)Sir, anything else you would like to add going forward to the local government elections in November?Herman (17:08.89)Well, I just want to really assure residents of Johannesburg that I have unfinished business. Remember when I took over as the mayor in 2016, I had no idea whatsoever what the mayor does. And I was facing a very hostile ANC in the beginning and he ended up with… the DA also making my life difficult. that I don't cut grass in Sandton. I provide portable toilets to people. ANC failed to provide portable toilets to them. I don't understand how anyone can expect human beings to live without toilets and you provide them. Then I have the party I represent saying, you're taking our residents' money. You know, for me, honestly, it's one of those...issues that have deeply helped me enter the political space. But, fortunately enough, it's made me much more determined. That's why I am prepared to work without being paid. Herman (18:29.265)This time I'm coming back with experience. I've got experience. I've got unfinished business. You remember in 2017, I passed what is known in city of Johannesburg called the Inner City Rejuvenation Plan passed by council. By the time I left, I had already taken over 154 buildings, awarded them to the private sector that were going to be investing 32 billion rands, creating 22,000 jobs. In the history of South Africa, local government creating 14 and a half thousand housing units, 30% of them were going to low income earners and students. And I had committed because by then I had already identified 600 properties. I had committed to the people of Johannesburg that I'm going to release a minimum of 100 buildings a year. So you can imagine if evil forces didn't plan my removal with the ANC, the city of Johannesburg would really be very far by now. But it is what it is right now. Those who are responsible for my removal or for my resignation, they must take responsibility for the mess we are seeing in the city of Johannesburg today. I cannot understand someone who is responsible for collapsing Johannesburg giving it to the ANC and then they think that she can come in and fix the mess. Go and fix the mess in Hanover Park. Go and fix the mess in Khayelitsha. Don't build walls to hide the poor people… Build affordable accommodation. Now you've got land, the Constitutional Court has reversed your sale of land that belongs to the people of South Africa. Take that money, you know, 141 million Rands, how many properties you can build.Chris Steyn (20:34.504)Sir, I just remembered somebody told me a while ago that the Johannesburg mayoral chain was missing. Is that true or has it been found?Herman (20:43.044)When I got into office, I didn't even know there was a thing called the mayoral chain. So it disappeared long before my time. So I don't know what it looks like and where it is. For me, it's the last thing I can really be concerned about. What I'm concerned about, is to really save the residents of the city of Johannesburg.Chris, look at what I've done. And I want the residents of Johannesburg and other municipalities to see. I've made history. I've already announced my mayoral committee two months ago to say to residents of the city of Johannesburg, when you elect me as your mayor on the 4th of November, these are the people, this is who's going to run finance…. Why? Because, and I said, I'm not appointing these people because they are my friends. I'm appointing them because these are the people that I believe are the right people to do the job. And they go out every day already studying their various portfolios. No other political party will do that. They are going to take their residents by surprise, surrounding themselves with their friends. In my case, already, February,I have the 10 MMCs designated that in the event I'm elected, we will hit the ground running immediately. And these are not my friends. These are people who know what they are doing. They've got enough time to study their portfolios so that all of us can hit the ground running immediately. There's no one ready to tend the city of Johannesburg like I do. Others are busy swimming in potholes.Chris Steyn (22:33.888)The African National Congress is still struggling to nominate a candidate.Herman (22:41.729)Yeah, well, very unfortunate, very, very sad that, but I think ANC, they know they've lost the plot, but they've not really accepted their reality. But in fact, I don't think they know what they're doing because you must understand the ANC is not in government to save you and I. ANC is in government to steal public monies. So I think this matter for them, iIt's not a priority. They will put in someone at the last minute and at the last minute this person will surround himself with MMCs that people don't know who they are. But luckily, ANC is in ICU and I don't really believe that diagnosis of their sickness is a correct one. So as far as I'm concerned, ANC, to get out of this ICU, it'll be a miracle. Miracles sometimes do happen, but I think they are on a sickbed. I cannot really see them coming out, but miracles do happen sometimes.Chris Steyn (23:56.086)Thank you. was ActionSA President Mr. Herman Mashaba speaking to BizNews. I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Sir.Herman (24:04.233)Thank you so much and I always appreciate the opportunity.