Ian Cameron: Mkhwanazi v/s "Underworld" Mchunu: parties rally behind the brave general

There has been a swell of public and Parliamentary party political support for KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Police Commissioner Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi after he made explosive allegations against Police Minister Senzo Mchunu and Deputy National Commissioner Shadrack Sibiya. In this interview with BizNews, Democratic Alliance (DA) spokesperson on Police, Ian Cameron says: “..all the political parties are at one that they must come to Parliament to account…I would find it very shocking that a provincial commissioner like General Mkhwanazi would take the risk, both physical and in terms of his job, his entire career, would take the risk that he took yesterday if he didn't have something to back it up with”. Cameron - who once had high hopes for the new Police Minister - adds: “I can't defend the Minister in any way. He hasn't answered substantially to any significant corruption matters that were reported to him by the committee, by myself as well.” As for the response from President Cyril Ramaphosa, Cameron says: “The President (stated) that he would give urgent attention to the matter and that it is a matter of national security. And I agree, it definitely is…. It comes back to one, the President, it comes back to the Minister of Police and to the National Commissioner of Police. Those three people should be held accountable for the disaster that we're currently in.“Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.The auditorium doors will open for BNIC#2 on 10 September 2025 in Hermanus. For more information and tickets, click here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.942)A huge storm has broken over the head of a cabinet minister who is touted as a possible future president. Today, we speak to the Democratic Alliance's spokesperson on Police, Ian Cameron. Welcome, Ian. Ian Cameron (00:16.878)Thank you Chris, thank you for having me again. Chris Steyn (00:20.842)Ian, please recap for us those explosive allegations made by the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Commissioner against the Minister of Police and a Deputy National Commissioner. Ian Cameron (00:35.438)Yeah, so Chris, I mean, it was an unprecedented moment what happened yesterday. I'm not aware of anything like it that has happened in the country before. Now, before I get to the opinion of it, he basically said that the Minister of Police and the Deputy National Commissioner have direct contact with certain very well-renowned underworld figures. One specific one that he mentioned was, for example, Kat Matlala or Vusimusi Matlala. Now, Matlala, very interestingly, you'd remember a few months ago, the owner of the AM Royal Football Club's house was raided by SARS. And a lot of the firearms that were found at that property belonged to a security company registered under Kat Matlala. Very interesting, when I questioned PSiRA about it, it actually started on a social media thing. I said to them, there are significant regulatory transgressions here. And they just said there's nothing. They did an investigation, no regulatory transgressions. I said to them, but surely the services must be suspended. I mean, he didn't store the firearms in the right place. And they just answered and said, no, he was just renting space to keep guns there. I mean, it's unheard of. Not only is it a regulatory transgression in terms of PSiRA, it's a significant criminal misconduct. We're talking about like high end, high caliber firearms here. Nevertheless, no real formal answer was ever received by PSiRA despite questioning it. And then after that, also wrote a whole set of parliamentary questions to the Minister regarding Kat Matlala, because there's this history of links to cash-in-transit highs, the Tembisa Hospital issue, Gauteng Health Department. I mean, there are scores of things that one can zoom in on. And unfortunately, no answer was received up until now. Now, I must be honest with you, you know, objectively speaking, it's first of all critical that all parties relevant to this and what happened yesterday get a fair chance to state their case. It's important that we don't engage in trial by media or trial by social media. We've seen the damage that can do. That being said, I would find it very shocking that a provincial commissioner like General Mkhwanazi… Ian Cameron (02:56.568)…would take the risk, both physical and in terms of his job, his entire career, would take the risk that he took yesterday if he didn't have something to back it up with. Yeah, so that in very short, I mean, there were significant allegations made of the Minister allegedly pulling certain strings for Matlala and Co. And so too the deputy national commissioner playing a role as well. Then obviously, the elephant in the room for quite some time was the Political Killing Task Team. Now, for a very long time, we heard in the media and read about it being ordered to be disbanded by the Minister. A few months ago, to the Portfolio Committee, Mkhwanazi just said that he responds to the National Commissioner and not to the Minister. There's a command structure in the police, and he sticks to that command structure until he receives such an instruction from the National Commissioner, he will continue with his work. And then obviously, it's interesting that all of this happens just a week or two after the arrest of certain high-level Crime Intelligence members. So it's difficult to not come to a conclusion that there are significant factional battles ongoing in this whole issue. Chris Steyn (04:19.032)So how are you taking it further now, Ian? Ian Cameron (04:22.67)Yes, I mean, there are a remedies I think that we have to our disposal. I think it will be a bigger issue than just the Police Portfolio Committee. Obviously, we will engage on it too. I wrote to the Speaker of the National Assembly yesterday. There's a very strong feeling amongst the entire Police Committee that we need to invite the Minister to come and account. I completely agree with them. We've written to the Speaker to also ask for an urgent full parliamentary debate on integrity management in the South African Police Service. And obviously, we've now asked to also just engage as a committee in a closed session to just discuss all the remedies, because as soon as the Presidency also gets involved, it obviously opens other avenues too. And this essentially is becoming an issue of the President as well. You saw the statement, I'm guessing, last night that was released by the President that he would give urgent attention to the matter and that it is a matter of national security. And I agree, it definitely is. Something that I think is important that some kind of a very urgent ad hoc commission of some kind must be done to probe the entire issue. The reason I say this, and I know a lot of people are frustrated with commissions, but the reason I say this is because I am scared or worried of the integrity of any form of investigation internally and the results that it would show. Unfortunately, over the years, political interference has been the name of the game, and what assurances do we have that this won't happen again? That also being said, it's important that we, what's a better way to put it, we must exhaust every single legal remedy that we have to our disposal to ensure that the dockets that were allegedly handed over to the minister slash General Sibaya are frozen and independently let's say, audited or investigated. We need to make sure that there hasn't been any form of interference. And then lastly speaking, the response yesterday by the Deputy National Commissioner and even the Minister, I found it disappointing that they didn't have a coordinated response from the South African Police Service or from the ministry's office. I understand everyone was busy with maybe Sunday tasks or wherever they were in the country. Ian Cameron (06:42.21)But something like this, when everyone starts shooting from the hip and one is defending himself, another one denies, it creates even more uncertainty. And the way that General Mkhwanazi approached his press conference yesterday was very direct, cool, calm, and collected. So they would really need to make sure that they step up their game if they want to prove otherwise. And it will be very interesting to see how the President responds. Chris Steyn (07:11.47)Have you had any other feedback from people in cabinet or other political parties, Ian? Ian Cameron (07:18.818)No, all the political parties are at one that they must come to Parliament to account. Again, I completely agree with them. And we are in the process of arranging such a meeting. It's obviously outside of the parliamentary schedule. So that's why certain processes need to be followed. But so far, it's really unleashed a flood of concerns. Also interesting to see the total almost united approach behind Mkhwanazi. It's as though there's a massive, not as though, I think there is massive public support. And also interesting, you can clearly see factional lines around the Crime Intelligence space being drawn in the media by certain commentators, by certain journalists, certain activists, whoever it may be. I'm just saying that, you know, a risk like this wouldn't have been taken if there isn't something of substance. I think it needs to be properly investigated. I think it would be important to look at suspensions, not in a punitive sense, but look at suspensions of any senior people involved, whether it's in the Ministry or Deputy National Commissioner or whoever else implicated, to make sure that the integrity of the organisation or what's left of the integrity of the organisation is protected - and obviously that the individuals involved, that their integrity is protected. It's important also that there's no space for any investigation to be interfered with as this moves forward. Chris Steyn (08:52.814)As you've just said, there is huge public support for the KZN Provincial Commissioner and there has been for a long time. I mean, you just have to read the comments on X. And as you now say, all political parties in parliament are also uniting behind him now..Read more:.The Sunday Show - Neil De Beer: SA’s “pseudo undercover dictatorship” and “murder by power…”.Ian Cameron (09:14.894)Yeah, I haven't picked up anyone that didn't, apart from Fikile Mbalula last night on the news. Look, you know, Chris, it's important, and I must say this, that to me, due process and the rule of law, they're absolutely critical. It shouldn't be undermined. And I was grappling with this yesterday because it felt to me like Mkhwanzi totally broke rank. And I mean, he literally jumped outside of the bureaucratic process.But that being said, I was listening to Mbalula last night and reading comments and I thought to myself, but wait a minute, we're all going on about obeying the bureaucratic process, but this very bureaucratic process, despite exhausting many of the avenues we have done so far, never actually protected any form of integrity of the State or any institution mentioned. mean, Mbalula now says, no, people must, they must abide by the bureaucratic process. And even though I actually agree to a large extent, what has that brought us regarding corruption in the country? Now, we have be very careful that we don't encourage some kind of a coup d'etat because that's also not a good thing. You know, if, let's humor me for a second, if Mkhawanazi went and he just purely opened a case and then he hoped for better days, I can guarantee you nothing would have happened. I mean, almost everyone implicated in State Capture are still somehow involved in the State. Many of them Cabinet ministers, some of them Chairperson of portfolio committees. Nothing happened with them. But my goodness, if you don't get the relevant permission to travel abroad, then you're sacked. There's just a complete double standard in approach. And I think that what happened yesterday was also a sign of significant frustration. I also found it interesting how Mkhwanazi made a very clear message to rally public support and the private sector. So it indicated to me, and maybe I'm just being dramatic about it, but it indicated to me that he's actually confirming that he already has a lot of support from those sectors. Yesterday's press conference was meticulously planned. That wasn't an ad hoc type of press conference. Ian Cameron (11:37.112)From the uniforms to the conduct, the senior members sitting around him, many of them brigadiers, major generals, et cetera, that wasn't some kind of an ad hoc, lose-my-temper type of press conference. It was meticulously planned, and therefore, I still can't help but wonder what this evidence looks like, because I can't think that they would have taken the risk if there isn't something of substance behind it. Chris Steyn (12:10.478)Well, the deputy, I'm sorry, the Provincial Commissioner of KZN is known as a man of great discipline, personal discipline and professional discipline. So as you said, for him to have broken the professional disciplinary process must have taken a lot. Ian Cameron (12:28.066)Yeah, I mean, he's the first one to speak about, you know, following the rules in the police, making sure that the regulations are abided by, that national instructions are abided by. And it's also interesting the fact that the National Commissioner was very quiet afterwards. You know, we immediately saw a frantic response from Sibiya and even supporters of Sibiya. It’s their good right, and I'm the last one to criticize it, but it was interesting that the National Commissioner didn't also respond, or that there wasn't some kind of, as I said earlier, a united response of some kind. Now, the press release from, I think it was last night or earlier this morning, by the National Commissioner saying that all police work will continue as per normal, he will brief the media later this week regarding operational successes and etc. I think it was code word for calm down. We will resolve this. We'll get through this. And it was just to get something out there so that people don't say he is silent. Yeah, it'll be very interesting, Chris. We've got a briefing this morning on the Justice and Security Cluster in Parliament which obviously I think might be overruled or overrun by questions regarding this specific issue. And it's going to be very interesting to see what the way forward holds for us. Chris Steyn (14:01.678)Now you and the previous Police Minister were public enemies. But when this Police Minister took office, you had high hopes for him and you had words of praise for him. However, lately he's been really quiet and members of the public have begun to comment on that and have begun to express disappointment in him. Are you very shocked at what has happened? Ian Cameron (14:24.812)Yeah, obviously, I mean, what happened yesterday is shocking. I've said in quite a few interviews that unfortunately, I can't defend the minister in any way. He hasn't answered substantially to any significant corruption matters that were reported to him by the committee, by myself as well. I mean, every single thing that I've questioned so far from disciplinary processes that weren't done properly to strange promotions of, let's call them dark horses in the Hawks and in the South African Police Service, appointments, promotions, corruption at training academies, none of it was answered. Everything just continues unabated. So, you know, they leave me very little room to hope for anything positive to come out of it. The interactions on a direct person-to-person level with the minister have been...very positive. And I think everyone can can agree on that. There's there's no doubt. But unfortunately, the results so far haven't shown - and it's now a year in. I'm a firm believer that you always give someone the benefit of the doubt and you give them a fair opportunity to prove themselves. But it's a year in and nothing in terms of the management of the South African Police Service has changed. I mean, the calls for lifestyle audits and entire integrity testing process just go unheard. The only thing that, and it was thanks to Parliament that it has become a resolution, was the skills audit of the South African Police Service. But there's no urgency to get to that point. And, you know, I sometimes get the feeling it's as though some of the political leaders and even some of the police leaders have figuratively speaking sat under a tree and wait for better days. You know, we've got the position now and now we just wait, but it lacks urgency. And it also, means that very often the public isn't taken into confidence. I think they should communicate far more.This whole disaster with Crime Intelligence as well and the arrests there. It's an indictment on integrity management and we can try and name and shame and blame the individuals implicated all we want. It comes back to one, the President, it comes back to the Minister of Police and to the National Commissioner of Police. Those three people… Ian Cameron (16:45.176)…should be held accountable for the disaster that we're currently in. People can talk about and debate the way that Mkhwanazi did yesterday, all they like. They should be focusing on the merit of what was said, the content of what was said, and then we can later on debate the optics of it. I mean, I've got many opinions on that. But the point is that the President, the Minister, the National Commissioner need to be held accountable for the disaster that South African Police Services is in. Chris Steyn (17:13.038)That was Ian Cameron, the Democratic Alliance spokesperson on Police and the Chair of the Parliament's Portfolio Committee on Police speaking to BizNews after the bomb burst over the head of the Police Minister. Thank you, Ian, and I am Chris Steyn. Ian Cameron (17:29.08)Thank you, Chris.

Ian Cameron: Mkhwanazi v/s "Underworld" Mchunu: parties rally behind the brave general

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