Chris Steyn (00:01.154)

The illusion of clean-up commissions. That is the topic of today's discussion with political commentator Solly Moeng. Welcome, Solly.

Solly Moeng (00:12.316)

Hello Chris, always lovely to see you.

Chris Steyn (00:15.18)

You too. There are increasing concerns that certain people will not appear before the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry. There are also concerns if they were to appear, what President Cyril Ramaphosa would do with the report once he gets it.

Solly Moeng (00:33.274)

Yeah, it is very worrisome. Look, this commission, unlike all the other commissions that came before it, including the Zondo Commission, has created a lot of excitement, positive, how to say, interest and trust of the public that it would lead to something.

So it's important that the Commission also, of course, doesn't call people to testify under public pressure. If there's potential evidence that will help it achieve its mandate, irrespective of who that person must be, it has to call those people. It cannot just give us peripheral evidence from the branches of a tree, if you want, while the core evidence that sits in the trunk of the tree is not called because there might be some political sensitivities around such evidence.

I think it's really, really important that this commission realises that one of the biggest failures and pains in South Africa is the dropped level of public confidence in the government, in public institutions. And it has a big role to play.

It's almost like a Siya Kolisi in a very strange way, who can make us believe again and the team, the Boks team, that we can still, as a united diverse country, do amazing things despite the odds.

This commission also must serve not only to say, this is what's been happening, but that there will be consequences for the stuff that's coming out there. And nobody's going to be spared simply because there might be political...sensitivities around that person.

Chris Steyn (02:07.425)

How would you have liked President Cyril Ramaposa to have handled the Zondo Commission report?

Solly Moeng (02:14.394)

I think the institutions that we currently have are not helpful because in terms of Section 84.2 of the Constitution, the President appoints the commissions of inquiry and he determines the terms of reference they have.

But the problem is that when the president, okay, the president is a deployed member of a political party, in this case is a deployed member of the ANC. Now, if the evidence that ends up with the commission points to the party, the most powerful party, to the people to whom the report must be handed with recommendations, then I think the Chairperson of the Commission, in this case Zondo, maybe he could have come up with a way to recommend, of course, he can't create structures that don't exist, but you could have made a very strong recommendation that maybe an independent multidisciplinary body that is led by an independent person gets given the responsibility to ensure that the report's recommendations are properly implemented, not selectively, not politically managed.

But in the case that we have, it means that it goes to the president. And the president, have to be supremely naive to think that the president doesn't go back to the party that deployed him to the top leadership say of the ANC and just look at who sits around the table in the party to say, guys, here's a report. What do you do? What do we do about it?

So the things that we, the discussion that we should be having in South Africa is what happens when the…

Solly Moeng (03:53.393)

…people who must implement the recommendations of the commission's report are themselves a problem.

How do we safeguard the institutions of the commission's integrity as to whether this one or future commissions, if you continue in this journey, to ensure that if, just like Thuli Madonsela did, you know, Thuli said, look, wait a minute, what's his name? Zuma cannot be the person to name the chairperson of what became the Zondoi Commission, and he cannot be the one to determine the terms of reference. And the High Court supported her, which was very good. Zondo should have taken a leaf out of Thuli Madonsena and said, wait a minute, all the evidence that is being placed before me points to Zuma as the central figure, to the Guptas, to all of those people.

We have not seen consequences. It's going back to the political party that's responsible, that is at the centre of the troubles that this country is facing. So we need to have those conversations. We cannot have a republic and its institutions relying on the goodwill or the good health of the men and women in politics. We can't. We need to change something, strengthen the checks and balances and ensure that when commissions are held and especially given the money that gets invested in these commissions, the public is not just given entertainment. This is not another Generations on TV, ha ha ha,...who did what. It should be what happens afterwards.

Chris Steyn (05:16.113)

Which other commissions of failure stand out for you?

Solly Moeng (05:22.033)

Well, remember there was the Sirite Commission on the Arms Deal. I think there was a commission on what happened at Eskom, for instance. So these things end up with revelations being made in public that there are some powerful political figures who are benefiting from the corruption, but they never get named.

So it's all the small minions who get named and we go, we applaud, we applaud, their stuff gets taken and then they come back to say, you know, the SIU, which cannot act as, by the way, without the so-called presidential decree, which is, in my view, nonsense. I think we should have a criminal justice system that doesn't require a politician to say, you can go after that one, you can’t go after that one, because it becomes selective. If the needed investigation comes too close to the political figures involved, then it's not going to happen.

Okay, so it's very easy for these, in the current system, for the public to be thrown peanuts and we're like, yeah, yeah, things are happening. But the key honchos get away with a lot of stuff because of political management of the evidence that comes from the commissions.

For instance, if you look at the current commission now, the name of Hangwani Maumela has been mentioned. It was mentioned by Cat Matala. He did say that he introduced him to the taxi boss…Surely if this guy's name is mentioned, two things must happen. Either he gets called to come and clear his name, one. Or two, the commissioner says to South Africa, well, his name has been mentioned, but it's not material enough. The evidence placed before us is not material enough for us to be called. Because people are asking the question. Why is this guy not being called? You cannot just silently sweep it away and say, but we've given you Sibiya, we've given you Matala, we've given you all these other names, but we're not giving you that one. Okay, because of the suspicion that he's close to the president, okay, the president has said, no, he's not close to me. He's just a distant relation of mine. We've seen pictures of them. They know each other at least, okay.

Solly Moeng (07:42.105)

I think the Commission and Madlanga, who is highly respected, must for his own sake and for his own legacy explain to South Africans why he's not calling this man. All he must call him. But silence on this man is not good.

My Malema was also mentioned. I think we have had these conversations before. And I repeat, I don't think any Commission should just call people just to please to entertain the public or under public pressure. But if there's sufficient evidence that individuals…the officials must be called to testify.

And my last point on this is there must be a clear mechanism of implementation. It must not go back to the same political bosses who are not too peripheral, if you want, to the stamp that gets placed in front of the commissions. Otherwise, it's just a waste of money. Just a waste of money. We're just hearing, we get entertained, a lot of money, peripheral people get called in, but the core people are not called in. They are suggested, they're not called in. It's not good.

Chris Steyn (08:48.199)

And this week again we saw the non appearance of General Feroz Khan, the sacked deputy chief of Crime Intelligence. The first time because he was shot, the second time because a relative was assassinated. Not only is he desperate not to appear, but others are also desperate for him not to appear.

Solly Moeng (09:11.6)

Yeah, yeah, it seems like his appearance is going to touch on a lot of seemingly powerful figures out there who are going to be exposed

He was shot the first time and it seems like he was really shot. He ended up in hospital. He had to be given the space to heal or to get to a sufficient level of having healed in order to come back. And now his uncle-in-law was killed the night before he was to appear again.

But he had also disregarded a legal subpoena to appear before the Commission. They had made all the arrangements for him to appear in camera for his own safety for whatever reason. He disregarded that. So it seems like there's a balance that must be had between protecting his health and his safety, his life, but also ensuring that the law is not pissed upon because of these things.

The South African public needs to hear what has happened. And this man and the Commission has done everything to create conditions for him to appear. And he didn't. So now he has a reason, there's a…

Solly Moeng (10:33.668)

…family-in-law bereavement as it were. Then the Commission still needs to come back to us and say, okay, here's a new date. We're creating the same conditions for him to be able to appear and testify in camera.

But again, we need transparency. We need to know what's going on. We don't want to end up with, you know, testimony being given in camera and the public never knowing what really happened, the consequences or the report of it being politically managed. Survivors need to know what's going on.

But we also need to know there will be consequences. So this guy cannot be allowed to get away. And whoever is linked to him, whoever might be feeling vulnerable because of what might come out of his mouth, that's not the problem. That shouldn't be the problem of the South African public. We need to get to a point where we see that the law, the justice system really works irrespective of the rank and the identity of who is involved in messing things up.

Chris Steyn (11:30.709)

Is it any wonder that the public feels that commissions are just a political trick, high-level political trick to play for time?

Solly Moeng (11:41.637)

Yeah, look, if it were up to me, I wouldn't have commissions. I think what we need is this very strong, independent, well-functioning criminal justice system. We know that we haven't had that. If there is any suspected criminal activity, the justice system must go investigate and do everything that it must to extract whatever evidence there is to bring people to court, for them to be judged, convicted, if they are wrong or not, or set free if they are not.

Commissions cost a lot of money. They are great for theatre, they are great for entertainment as it were. But I think that the best way to save, to use public money effectively is to have an independent criminal justice system that goes against everybody who is suspected of committing crime.

Right now, especially in the current political set up, like I said earlier, we are all at the back end call, or the system is at the back end call of the political…It is not a good thing that the president is…a messenger of a political party, especially if the political party becomes a problem.

So we need to have a system where if we continue with coalitions and commissions, they get to report to a multidisciplinary body that is not controlled by any one political party. And if anyone has been named adversely in anything that came out in such commissions, they should automatically not be allowed to be part of deciding what happens to the report that comes out of it. Right now, we keep doing things the same way over and over again and expect different outcomes. It's bad.

Chris Steyn (13:28.193)

Meanwhile, there has been astonishing drama at the bail hearing of suspended Deputy National Commissioner General Shadrack Sibiya. It's not looking good. Is it, Solly?

Solly Moeng (13:40.656)

No. That man has got three monsters of his own creation looking him in the face. One, the stuff that came out of the Madlanga Commission for which he must still account. Two, he's facing disciplinary hearing within his employment system, the SAPS. Three, the current charges that he's now facing for which he's sitting in jail with accusations, of course, they're still to be tested, that he sexually abused a minor, groomed her, and you know...

I don't know what's going to happen, but the thing that we should worry about is that he's holding a very important position. He still has not been dismissed yet, unlike Khan. We still have to go into internal hearings. But look, in terms of the law, of course, there must be evidence, and his criminal, the allegations that are criminal, there must be clear evidence that he did what. It must be tested, and he must be convicted. But in terms of the internal disciplinary hearing, of course this employer, the SAPS, doesn't have to have the same test if you want.

Solly Moeng (14:56.216)

His conduct is already unbecoming of somebody who occupies the position that he holds. We need to get to a point where there are consequences and where the correct people are appointed to replace these people.

And I think maybe we should also have a conversation as a country about who gets to appoint the people and how. It cannot always be the public that appoints these people, but politicians, the system…we've had this system for 32 years, the current system, okay? We have seen over the past two years the weaknesses thereof. It has proven over and over again to be vulnerable, be weak and to serve the interests of criminals.

We should have a conversation. Should we continue this way into the future?

Okay, we can say, this president is nice, he's cool, or she's cool, she'll do things the right way. We can't rely on it. We should say, what happens if this president who comes in cool, speaking good English, dressing nicely, someone you want to hug, suddenly goes rogue on the system, on South Africa? How do we ensure that the system kicks them out or weakens them or takes the power away from them immediately?

Let's go back to the case of Thuli Madonsela. What she did with Zuma was correct. We should have a system that entrenches that kind of thing. Says well, Mr. President, you can't be the one who makes this decision because you're the problem. We're not there yet. We should get there very soon.

Chris Steyn (16:23.277)

Thank you. And that was Solly Moeng, political commentator on BizNews with Chris Steyn. Thanks, Solly.

Solly Moeng (16:31.249)

It's a pleasure Chris, always a pleasure.

Solly Moeng: The illusion of SA’s “clean-up’” commissions”...