In this interview with Chris Steyn, City of Johannesburg whistleblower Stephanus Fourie warns that a new administration will not be able to root out entrenched mismanagement and corruption without drastic action. “Unless you catch the criminals and you lock them up and you take back everything that they've taken from the ratepayers, nothing will change.” Fourie believes that any person who steals from the government should be found guilty of terrorism, sent to prison without a term, given hard labour to earn back money to refund the taxpayer, and get released only “once every cent that you stole has been recovered”. Meanwhile, Fourie takes viewers behind the scenes at City Power where he was fired after he discovered “that there were anomalies that were non-consistent with the MFMA (the Municipal Financing Management Act)...And the biggest one was that they wanted to outsource sourcing. And not only outsource sourcing, the whole warehouse.” He has been reinstated following a court order, but City Power is still resisting his return. “One of the senior managers made a comment to say if he kept his mouth shut - referring to me - he would have been back at work…In front of witnesses.”.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.038)If Helen Zille becomes mayor of Johannesburg, she won't be swimming in water-filled potholes, but she'll be treading water in a cesspit of criminality and corruption. Let us go behind the scenes at one city entity. With me is whistleblower Stephanus Fourie. Welcome.Stephanus Fourie (00:25.792)Welcome and thanks for allowing me to be on your show.Chris Steyn (00:29.058)You are welcome. As a former sourcing specialist at City Power, what did you uncover?Stephanus Fourie (00:37.654)So it is a systematic process starting way back. These people play the long game, if I can put it like that. So they start with employing people. That is questionable, to put it bluntly. The recruitment process starts with interns mainly. And then the politicians, they request or they demand that interns become permanent. Now here's the problem. Gauteng is one of the provinces with a large number of universities and most of the people do not come from Gauteng. They come from Limpopo. So municipalities are supposed to take care of their own before they take care of others. So why are we importing interns to be later to become Permanent.Once these people are in positions their qualifications, and I'm not saying that they don't have qualifications But we've seen this throughout South Africa a person comes and he or she has a qualification like for instance a teacher's qualification, but they go into finance supply chain operations warehousing and they don't have the appropriate qualification and that already makes that person vulnerable. In a country where we have high levels of unemployment, everybody is begging for scraps, if I can put it like that. And getting a job nowadays is significant for most people. Now they get a job, they're not qualified, they're not geared for the position they are fulfilling, and somebody above them tells them what to do. Chris Steyn (02:33.07)So what happened at the warehouse?Stephanus Fourie (02:37.29)So at the warehouse specifically, there was this attempt to outsource the warehouse. Now, I've made it very clear that there are certain things that the MFA allows and there's certain things that it does not allow. And one of the main things it does not allow is outsourcing sourcing: the procurement of the goods and the services required by a municipality to run properly. Now, we all know that City Power is only second to Eskom in terms of electricity and its infrastructure and so on. And it's in the hub of South Africa. It's at the heart. And we are downgrading a warehouse to the point where it can no longer support the maintenance of the current infrastructure. City Power is complaining that the infrastructure is old, but they don't have material to replace the old infrastructure. They are hiring contractors who are supposed to draw stock from the warehouse. Instead of the labour contract amount going down - because let's be honest, they've employed quite a number of electricians… Logically, if you increase one, you decrease the other. But both increase. And yet the failures are increasing as well. And that should be a question for any politician. How do I spend more money but the problem is getting bigger instead of smaller? Now the warehouse is a critical piece of operational requirement in order to fix when things are being stolen, vandalised, or just by nature it packs up. Because these are human-made stuff and it does eventually break so it's normal but it's expected that you plan. So now the question is what's wrong with the planning because if I have a car I know I have to maintain my car once a year. I have choices I can take it to a garage that somebody does it for me or I can do it myself or I can get a friend to do it but…Stephanus Fourie (04:59.872)…to do the service, I need the material to actually service the car. Electricity is no different from that: If you do not have the equipment, the material to fix broken cables, replace substations, mini-subs, transformers, how are you going to maintain it? You can't. So the big thing came in as I was, at that point, I was the demand manager. And one of the big things or functions that I have, is to look to see that everything that we plan to procure for the year goes onto a procurement plan. In the warehouse case, it was not on the procurement plan. So to get it onto the procurement plan, there's a process. Because life goes on, life changes. You cannot say that my needs a year earlier is exactly the same as it is today. Life happens. So there are provisions to include things into the procurement plan. However, now there's a process. So first, they send the specifications to me. I discovered that there were anomalies that were non-consistent with the MFMA, which is an act, not a guide. You must comply with this act. And the biggest one was that they wanted to outsource sourcing. And not only outsource sourcing, the whole warehouse. Now we have a fully functional warehouse at City Power. All the equipment, all the shelving, the software, the forklifts, the tools, the cutters for cables, everything, we have it. Why would you outsource something that you have? And more importantly, why would you outsource procurement of materials? Now, we all buy, every person buys. But here's the thing, I can go and buy from an OEM, original equipment manufacturer, and bring it to the warehouse directly. If I go to a contractor to buy it, what is he going to do? First and foremost, he's going to have a markup for storing all this equipment and stuff, which is an expense that he now has to incur. Bear in mind, municipalities are limited to three years. We're talking about between one to 10 billion rands worth of stock that should be kept. Technology changes. What happens to stock that is no longer used?Stephanus Fourie (07:27.902)City Power constantly upskill or upgrade its technology. What happens to the old? Who's going to pay for that? In the end, we know the answer, the taxpayers. They are paying for this. Now, that warehouse does not go and buy necessarily from the OEM. They go and buy from a wholesaler who also does a markup. The wholesaler buys from the OEM. So between the OEM and me buying directly from them for my warehouse so that my teams can go out and fix the damages and the breakage, I now have to pay one, two, three mock-ups and no control over the pricing. Zero control. Yes, zero control. The MFMA does not allow that. That's illegal. And City Power has a history of doing these things. They have done it with the contractors who now buy material directly. I think this week it was in the news again, where contractors are demanding 900 million because they have been out of pocket to buy the materials that they needed to do the jobs and so on, which they should not be doing. And remember, now we're paying markups on these things. Plus, a warehouse fully equipped. I operated 24 hours. I can have technicians out 24-7 to go and collect this material from the warehouse and fix a problem within the mandated four to eight hours. However, if the contractor must buy it and he does not keep a warehouse or a stock, he must wait till the next morning. So imagine six o'clock your power goes down You have to wait till nine o'clock the next morning for this person to only buy the equipment He hasn't even started fixing…Stephanus Fourie (09:28.864)So there's your four hours, eight hours gone. And I believe that the residents of the city of Joburg are well versed with these long lead times to fix problems. So my take on it was that the warehouse is critical. It's core to City Power service delivery. And if we look at the rules, service delivery has now become one of the measurables of output for municipalities.But why would you then run down your stock? It does not make sense. Unless you have a malicious objective.And that's not in the interest of the residents of Johannesburg. Same with the recruitment process. Recruitment is prescribed by the Municipal Systems Act. We have seen in the newspapers that even the CEO position, National Treasury got involved because they wanted to reduce the requirements set by National Treasury. So these people have this mentality that they can do whatever they like.Chris Steyn (10:45.676)Now you were fired but reinstated after a court order. What is your current status?Stephanus Fourie (10:48.128)Yes.Stephanus Fourie (10:53.952)Current status, I'm still at home. We are waiting now for the review, but also we have some other things in the background happening because we believe that the witnesses lied under oath. And I believe that's one of the reasons I was successful because I presented my case on documents, acts, regulations, circulations, City Power policies. Every document I have tabled was a City Power document.Chris Steyn (11:23.31)Do you believe that you were victimised?Stephanus Fourie (11:27.988)Yes, I do believe it and I've actually voiced it. I voiced it in both my internal hearing and at the bargaining council.Chris Steyn (11:36.088)So why is your case being dragged out like this?Stephanus Fourie (11:39.479)It is what all municipalities and all State entities do. When they want to get rid of somebody, because this person is a problem of one or other source, they simply fire them for whatever reason they can make up and then they drag the case. So for instance, at the Bargaining Council, they delayed, postponed my case 10 times. If you look at the Bargaining Council's own rules. A case must be settled within 60 to 120 days. Mine took over 180 days. So, here I actually blame the Bargaining Council because they allow these postponements by the employer representatives, institutions. They accept these postponements. And if we are honest, why did the CCMA and the Bargaining Council come into existence? To give an equal opportunity to an employee and the employer without exorbitant cost. But with what they are doing, they are making sure that the employee runs out of funds. Even the internal process from finding me guilty to the sanction of dismissal took almost two months. I mean, where's the logic in that? If you have decided this person is guilty and based on what has been presented to you and you feel that these things are well founded and whatever it should not take you more than seven days to make a conclusion.Chris Steyn (13:16.536)So you think there is a nefarious agenda behind the mismanagement, the alleged mismanagement, of the warehouse and the way your complaints and employment have been handled?Stephanus Fourie (13:27.574)Not only do I think it, one of the senior managers made a comment to say if he kept his mouth shut referring to me, he would have been back at work…Stephanus Fourie (13:44.68)…in front of witnesses.Chris Steyn (13:44.771)What wasChris Steyn (13:48.962)Why do you think they don't want you back at work?Stephanus Fourie (13:52.043)So first and foremost, I have touched on the irregular appointment… And because that is the beginning of the whole long-term plan, I've also touched on the fact that I have stopped the warehouse outsourcing with the assistance or the final decision made by National Treasury, which has been reported on wildly. Then further to that, I have now questioned the GM of SCMs credentials as being competent in SCM. Noting that in terms of the Municipal Systems Act, you have to have your competency within a maximum of 18 months. Six years after he was appointed beginning 2018, me and him stood on the same podium for the competency. So I can say for a fact, I knew he didn't have it. Because we stood on the same podium, same day we graduated for our competencies.Chris Steyn (15:02.84)So how are you going to go forward with this?Stephanus Fourie (15:07.03)So me and my legal team, we are busy working on some strategies. I don't want to give everything for everybody to take note. But I am of the firm belief that if we allow people to misuse the power that the taxpayers have given them and misuse funds from the taxpayers, they should not be unscathed. But unless you catch the criminals and you lock them up and you take everything that they've taken from the rate payers back, nothing will change. Because at the moment, whistleblowers or any employee that's been fired unfairly they are on the losing end all the way, they are always at the losing end, and those people who perpetrated the laws, those people who have abused their powers, those people who have manufactured charges against people they just go on with their life. In some cases they even get promotedChris Steyn (16:01.176)So how do you see the future of city power?Stephanus Fourie (16:06.528)First and foremost, I honestly hope that there will be a change of political oversight. Secondly, I hope that they will take the initiative to do a lifestyle audit on everybody at City Power, starting with the finance and the ACM employees and the whole management team, and then work its way down even up to the cleaner. And there's a reason why I'm saying even up to the cleaner. Because even cleaners in some cases are now so bold that they even now ask for money from visitors, contractors and so on.Chris Steyn (16:45.294)So how come this alleged mismanagement of such a critical and vital entity goes unnoticed by people at the top?Stephanus Fourie (16:56.488)It did not go unnoticed. First and foremost, AG had irregular expenditure every single year since 2013 that I have been there.I'm one of the few people who got charged and then I proved my case in the Bargaining Council that I was charged incorrectly. However, we have people at City Power, the labour contract specifically, are going to court almost every time after it's been awarded and it's been challenged successfully.And there was a, I think in 2018, 2019, there was even a judge that said that some people in SEM, and he named them, I'm not going to name them, must be charged. And not a single one of those people were charged. And SIDIPA was fully aware of this. And COJ cannot tell me that they're not aware of it. In fact, the current mayor, mayor or manager, one of the two, was found withholding from the committee, the council committee the reports from City Power where there was wrongdoing. They knew about it. So pleading innocence is irrelevant. They must be dealt with, investigated, and where they are found wanting for wrongdoing whatsoever, there must be consequences. The only thing that I would argue is that our legal system is too lenient with corrupt people. There's a recommendation that I have for the political leaders if they are interested. And it's very simple. You have a rule that says a person that steals from government, whether it's a politician, an administrator or private sector, through fraud and corruption in any which way or form, they should be found guilty of terrorism. Because as a taxpayer, I have a social compact with government.Stephanus Fourie (19:06.098)I give you my money. One of the things that you should do is uplift the poor, maintain the infrastructure, expand the infrastructure so that the private sector can expand the economy.Because let's be honest, government does not expand an economy. They just suck it dry. That's all they do. Okay. And then when you are found guilty of this terrorism, you get sent to prison without a term. You must do hard labor and the money that you earn must go back to those that you stole from. In this case, from the taxpayer. So it must go back and you only get released once every cent that you stole has been recovered.Chris Steyn (19:53.475)Meanwhile we have heard from several sources that Johannesburg is practically bankrupt, but there is a big bailout on the cards, is there not?Stephanus Fourie (20:09.002)There are two bailouts in different forms. One is 24 billion. I have, after my interview with OUTA, I have discovered the money was paid. A portion of it was paid to Eskom. I believe that they were supposed to pay the whole amount to Eskom to get rid of the debt. And what I've heard, and it's alleged, I've heard that they did not do that. Now I don't know what the IMF agreement was for the utilisation of that money because 24 billion is not a small amount and generally when you use that, you loan debt borrow that kind of money there's always conditions attached and there must be a clear understanding what it will be used for and it is my understanding - and I might be wrong I'm talking under correction - that some of that money was used to pay labour contractors. Now if that was not part of the IMF loan agreement, that's breach of contract. So that's the first part. The second part is 1.2 billion Euros, I believe from the Development Bank, which is being borrowed or has been borrowed. And through COGTA, a contract was given to City Power for implementation of certain infrastructure. Now, the question that I have, where is that money going to go? Again to the contractors or the labour contractors or even maybe a single one. And who is managing this? Bear in mind, COGTA has given City Power a previous contract and AG has found that when they did the audit on COGTA that the amounts paid for the installation of solar panels was exorbitant. It was big, massive. And there was a finding. Now, this is what baffles me.Stephanus Fourie (22:08.682)COGTA you give money to city power to do something. You are found wanting by the AG, and yet you're going to go and give them even more money. So either COGTA is incompetent or they are in on it.Chris Steyn (22:29.102)Do you have faith that a new administration will be able to eradicate entrenched mismanagement and criminality?Stephanus Fourie (22:40.04)I will have faith, let's say within 30 days after the elections. And that faith will be based on the following. Are we tackling corruption? Because you can change the rules how many times you like. We know how criminals work. They adapt. But unless you catch the criminals and you lock them up and you take everything that they've taken from the rate payers back, nothing will change. It's like hijacking. They use a certain method. The security companies figure it out, they start blocking them, they change, they use a different method. Unless you find the hijackers and stop them in their tracks, nothing will change. Same with corrupt people. if you do not catch them and take everything away from them. Because they have taken away from the poorest of the poor.Stephanus Fourie (23:44.266)That's the bottom line. And if any political party, and I don't know who's going to win in Johannesburg, but if any political party does not have that as their core to turn the city around, they will fail.Chris Steyn (24:00.814)Thank you. That was Johannesburg City Power whistleblower, Stephanus Fourie, speaking to BizNews. I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Mr FourieStephanus Fourie (24:04.715)Yes.Stephanus Fourie (24:12.267)pleasure..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.