Jonathan Deal: Warning of large-scale public disobedience over ANC’s “disarmament agenda”…

Millions of private gun owners are living in fear that they will be disarmed and left defenceless by legislation in the making. In this interview with BizNews, Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen, tells Chris Steyn that the proposed legislation would be “unenforceable” - and warns that  it “would invite public disobedience on a large scale”. Deal says the proposed amendments amount to “saying self-defense is not a valid reason to possess a firearm”. Commenting on the possible agenda behind the amendments, Deal charges: “They want to have every single private person, including the security industry, hobbled and disarmed as much as possible so that they can basically do what they like. We all know in history that a disarmed populace is at the complete and utter mercy of the government.” He further warns that “they will turn millions of currently law-abiding South Africans into criminals….There are millions of South Africans who are more scared of being murdered by criminals than they are scared of what the police will do to them - even if the police have the will and the resources to enforce such a ridiculous notion.”

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Edited transcript of the interview

Chris Steyn (00:02.344)

Millions of private gun owners are living in fear that they will be disarmed and left defenseless by legislation in the making. We speak to Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen. Welcome, Jonathan.

Jonathan Deal (00:20.142)

Welcome, thank you very much Chris, it's great to be with you. And if I may just take a very brief moment to contextualise this discussion right at the beginning and say to anybody that is exposed to this interview, if you can think at some stage today or 10 years in the future, where any member of your family, any of your friends, any of their families and anybody else in South Africa who might cherish the notion of being one day being able to apply, to choose to apply, to own a fire alarm, this is a really important interview to listen to and a really important message to spread.

Chris Steyn (00:57.502)

Jonathan, what are the latest developments with regards to the proposed amendments to the Firearms Control Act?

Jonathan Deal (01:06.504)

Chris, we have a situation where the Act is now being debated by an organisation extensively positioned to discuss trade and industry matters, NEDLAC. And next week, Monday on the 10th of November, there will be, I just love this word, a Hybrid Dialogue, some new term that's been coined by some talking head to make it sound good. And this will essentially be amongst business people and corporate structures. 

Interestingly enough, towards the end of October, there was a sudden flurry of invitations from Nedlac to various people in the firearms fraternity, but by no means to the entire public or to all the interested and affected stakeholders who ought to be there.

Chris Steyn (01:59.7)

You have had a big problem with Nedlac’s role.

Jonathan Deal (02:04.598)

Absolutely. They've been working on it since March, I can prove since March 2025, in secret behind the scenes with the Civilian Secretariat. 

And in August, it came to our attention because a member of BUSA, Business Unity South Africa, shared a letter that they had received as a BUSA member with one of our members in the firearms fraternity. And that was an invitation by Nedlac to BUSA members to come and discuss this Firearms Control Amendment Bill, ostensibly to rubber stamp it and send it back to the government saying that this fits all sizes in South Africa.

Chris Steyn (02:44.692)

So you were not initially invited.

Jonathan Deal (02:48.406)

None of us were invited. The public still haven't been invited. Many stakeholders haven't been invited and there are many critical people in the firearms fraternity with expert knowledge of this subject that have not been invited. So in no way, even next week on Monday, does this get close to ticking the box on stakeholder engagement or proper public consultation.

Chris Steyn (03:10.834)

Let us go to the heart of those amendments, especially the self-defense principle.

Jonathan Deal (03:17.72)

Thank you. I'd like to also just to put this further into context. There three points around this whole issue. The first is the obvious danger to disarming private citizens who in South Africa are their own protectors. The second issue at play is the irrational drafting of legislation like this, that if it were to become law would simply be unenforceable and I think it would invite public disobedience on a large scale. And thirdly, in closing when we get to that is we are a divided nation and we've actually become accustomed to the ridiculous behavior of the ANC and we have not ever stood up and said to them this is enough. 

I can think of two instances in South Africa where possibly this has happened when Duvenage at OUTA had a great success with the Toll Gates and the other one was the Treatment Action Campaign. Other than that we seem to bend a knee before the ANC all the time.

Chris Steyn (04:16.798)

Now, these amendments, Jonathan, continue.

Jonathan Deal (04:17.035)

So to get into just some detail on the amendments, Safe Citizen has had sight of this amendment bill. And it's going to be necessary just to ask for the patience of your audience for a short while, just to go through the short preamble of this bill so that you understand what the ANC would like us to think as the public is their motivation for this bill. And then look at one specific section, Section 13, which deals with self-defense. Thank you. 

So this is the preamble. To amend the Firearms Control Act, to provide for the amendment of the preamble, to provide for the amendment of the purpose of the Act and the insertion of principles and the objects of the Act.

Chris Steyn (04:51.401)

Go ahead.

Jonathan Deal (05:07.735)

To provide for the verification by accredited associations of applications to possess a firearm, to provide for the period of validity for all competency certificates to be five years, in other words, cutting that in half, to provide for conditions under which a firearm license for occasional hunting or sports shooting may be issued, to provide for the limitation on the number of firearm licenses that an occasional hunter or sports shooter may hold. 

Now, the absolute clanger here is that the Trojan horse is the way that they have tried to amend Section 13. And when I'm finished with this, audience, your audience will see that all the ANC have been doing is akin to putting lipstick on a pig because it's the same clause just with different clothes on. So the absolute clanger is that nowhere does their preamble talk about Section 13.

And in Section 13, I would like to just go through this to illustrate the deceitfulness of the government in this. Here are the conditions that they now suggest should be good enough for you that you have to satisfy to convince the registrar of the need to possess a firearm for self-defense. 

Now, one would think as if the devolution of the South African Police Services in 2025 and the murder and assault rates in this country are not good enough motivation that citizens still have to try and jump through these type of hoops and how impossible they are making it. 

And I don't know if they think that we are brain dead and that we're just going to roll over and not actually read this. It's just it's it's comical. 

So, I’m not going to go through all the legalese, I'm going to just pick out some highlights if I can for your viewers, The person applying for a license must satisfy the Registrar that there are exceptional circumstances that demonstrate the applicant's need. Now, who decides what is an exceptional circumstance, an exceptional situation for people that live in … and…

Chris Steyn (07:01.331)

Yes, please do.

Jonathan Deal (07:25.207)

…or that have close protection details like President Ramaphosa or who have no protection. What is an exceptional circumstance and who decides what an exceptional circumstance is? 

Then they say this must indicate a real threat on the safety of the person. What is a real threat? Is Chris Steyn's threat different to Jonathan Deal's threat, different to the Cyril Ramaphosa’s threat, different to the man in the street's threat. What is a real threat and who decides in the Registrar with their intellect and their great foresight what is a real threat. 

And the level of that threat, I presume now that they've got a nice little graph, you know, one to five. You might die next week, but number five, you're going to die tomorrow if you don't have a gun. What is this level of the threat? 

Then you've also got to show them historic incidents where the person applying for the license was affected. So Chris, if you can't show the registrar a historic incident where your safety has been directly affected in an attack, no license for you. 

Then whether the person applying for the license has resources other than a firearm, what does that mean? A knob carry, a knife, VIP protection, a gated community, armed response, and how many of the 63 million people in South Africa have any of those things? 

And then whether there is a likelihood that the exceptional circumstances or other factors contemplated in the subsection will continue to exist, what are we? Risk managers? Is the public now to provide a risk analysis of the next five years of their life to get a license.

And then finally, the back door. Any other factor which may from time to time be determined by the Minister by notice in the Gazette. So I hope that you will agree with me. All that they've done is try to put lipstick on a pig. This is exactly the same as saying self-defense is not a valid reason to possess a firearm.

Chris Steyn (09:39.838)

So what do you think is the driving force behind these amendments, Jonathan?

Jonathan Deal (09:46.346)

If one looks at this in concert with the PsIRA regulations, the amendments to the PsIRA regulations, which ridiculously insist or propose that a security officer must have special written permission, presumably from the somewhere in the security industry, to carry a set of handcuffs. He may not use pepper spray in the course of his duties.

So if you look at this in concert with those proposed amendments to the PsIRA regulations, you can see exactly where the ANC wants to go. They want to have every single private person, including the security industry, hobbled and disarmed as much as possible so that they can basically do what they like. We all know in history that a disarmed populace is at the complete and utter mercy of the government - and I would not sleep well, and I think a lot of other people knowing that we are at the complete and utter mercy of the benevolence of the government.

Chris Steyn (10:55.656)

How many gun owners would this legislation affect should it become law?

Jonathan Deal (11:02.411)

The latest statistics that we can draw on emanate from a meeting that was held in Paarl in the Western Cape about a week ago. And somewhere in that presentation, I think from a fairly authoritative source, the number of three million licensed firearm owners was mentioned. That's just the licensed firearm owners, not people who would like to own a firearm or choose to apply to own a firearm in the future. Nor the commercial security industry which is four and a half times the size.…

Chris Steyn (11:34.452)

As you pointed out, Jonathan, this legislation, should it become law, would be difficult to enforce because I, and you obviously don't see people queuing up to hand in their firearms in the current climate of crime and corruption.

Jonathan Deal (11:54.046)

Without a doubt, I think that as I said to you, it will invite a large scale disobedience and they will turn overnight, they will turn millions of currently law abiding South Africans into criminals.

There are millions of South Africans who are more scared of being murdered by criminals than they are scared of what the police will do to them, even if the police have the will and the resources to enforce such a ridiculous notion.

Chris Steyn (12:25.234)

Hmm. Jonathan, is there any legal pushback that could still be used to prevent these amendments from being signed into law?

Jonathan Deal (12:26.861)

Thank

Jonathan Deal (12:38.209)

Look, I'm concerned that, as I mentioned earlier, when we are presented with irrational legislation by the State, the first thing that we do, irrespective of what industry or sector of trade we're in, is we go into analysis paralysis around these amendments, and we go rushing off to brief lawyers. 

And my question is, why should private people and the business sector spend millions of rands, hours, days, weeks and months of their lives conjuring up strategy and tactics to withstand something like this instead of standing up to it right at the beginning. 

And when Safe Citizen was invited to this Nedlac Imbizo, this Hybrid Imbizo, I just love that word, we wrote to them and said that we disregard their status in terms of being able to manage such an intervention. It would be like the firearms community calling a Hybrid Imbizo on trade and business issues. We have no expertise in that sector and we're not entitled to make decisions for the rest of the public on that. So when we received that invitation, we wrote them and said we declined to...we will not be attending that we do not recognise their authority. 

And quite frankly, were I to be at that meeting, my opening words to them would be, gentlemen, can we please dispense with this veneer of good faith and bona fides and civility. You actually have already decided where you are going with this legislation and the only reason that you have invited us here is because you are scared that somewhere down the line some court with some guts will point out to you that your stakeholder engagement or your public participation has been completely illegitimate. 

The second thing possibly and it might be the last thing that I would get to say at that meeting…

Jonathan Deal (14:50.121)

…is to the highly paid bureaucrats who accepted this renewed instruction from the ANC to march this stupid law out or proposal out again, to say to their masters in the ANC, are you gentlemen smoking your socks? Is this not the same legislation with slightly different clothes that was roundly rejected by the nation in 2021?

And here you are in the middle of a crime wave, in the middle of the devolution of the South African Police Services, when the citizen in the street is facing an onslaught and when every competently and lawfully armed citizen is actually an asset to the community and the police. Here you are trying to float this ridiculous piece of legislation again. And I would say to them, have you got any guts? Have you got any ethics?

Jonathan Deal (15:48.439)

Can you live with yourself? Are you supposed to serve the public or are you working against the public that you profess to serve?

Chris Steyn (15:56.02)

So what you're saying is you believe the African National Congress is just window dressing an agenda to disarm private citizens.

Jonathan Deal (16:06.593)

Completely. That preamble is an absolute joke. It is an absolute joke. I would be surprised if with enough time and understanding the context, a … child could not see through it.

Chris Steyn (16:20.466)

I just want to understand this Jonathan. So this would mean that the legislation would apply retroactively. So people would have to prove, people who already have firearm licenses would have to prove that they can keep those licenses and those firearms.

Jonathan Deal (16:34.667)

Most certainly, because I'll tell you how they will get that done. All of the Section 13 licenses are on a five-year competency, valid at the moment for five years. So if this came into law, all they would do instead of trying to force people to hand their firearms in, they would wait for the renewal of the license and simply decline the renewal and say, that's it. You're not getting a new license. You can kindly bring your firearm to the police station, please, so that it can be surrendered. And of course, we know what happens quite often to firearms that are surrendered into the care of the police.

Chris Steyn (17:08.852)

Okay, next steps for Safe Citizen. What are you going to do now, Jonathan?

Jonathan Deal (17:17.919)

I think that this interview today has probably been the best thing that Safe Citizen can do for the community and the general public in South Africa today. I hope that it gets great legs. We need more of this type of opportunity. Of course, mainstream media we know are dead. The ANC News 24 group just is absolutely useless as far as this is concerned, as with Daily Maverick. I don't even want to talk more about them. 

But we need to get into the communities and communities need to stand up and people in positions of responsibility and authority, not only as representatives of the firearm community, but also as civil servants need to get some guts and start working towards what they should be doing and not what the ANC in an outdated ideological fantasy wants to achieve.

Chris Steyn (18:19.304)

Thank you. That was Jonathan Deal, the Founder of Safe Citizen, speaking to BizNews. I am Chris Steyn.

Thank you, Jonathan.