Listen here.Fears of an agenda to disarm private citizens are growing along with jaw-dropping allegations of criminal activity by top cops. In his latest interview with Chris Steyn, Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen, warns that the public is not properly and fully informed on public safety, and takes viewers through the implications of proposed changes to firearms ownership and training regulations for ordinary citizens, as well as for the private security industry. “...for many South Africans, a lawfully-owned firearm, either in their own hands or in the hands of the security industry, is actually their mainstay of security, particularly in the absence of the ability of the State to look after them. I can't understand why a government that itself is beleaguered on so many levels in the South African Police Service would go and meddle and fiddle with things where the public at least have some measure of protection, even if they're providing it themselves.” Meanwhile, he expresses grave concern about more and more allegations of criminal activity involving top police officers emerging at the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry. “Certainly, it appears that the government has lost control of this critical environment. Personally, my view is that…that our police service has become politicised. It is used as a political football.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.354)Fears of an agenda to disarm private citizens are growing along with jaw-dropping allegations of criminal activity or alleged criminal activity by top cops. With me is Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen. Welcome, Jonathan.Jonathan Deal (00:21.026)Thank you, Chris. Nice to be with you.Chris Steyn (00:24.148)Jonathan, you are very concerned that the public is not properly and fully informed on public safety. May we start by you informing them properly on what they should really know about the Firearms Control Amendment Bill.Jonathan Deal (00:45.08)Chris, thank you for that. I think we can definitely agree that people are often hearing the words public safety, but not necessarily making the connection or understanding where the foundation of public safety lies. And they can consistently hear calls for more restrictions, apparently and according to our government, to make them safer, but actually not enough about how those restrictions may affect their constitutional rights to lawful self-defense and effective private security. Now, the debate in South Africa can be polarized, and it sometimes does become polarized around owning a firearm or not owning a firearm. And this is not what it's about. Essentially, I think that if we can agree in a rational society that a lawfully-owned firearm is an intrinsic part of a civilised society, and that in good hands, in competent hands, it can be something positive for the community. We could probably agree that a move to disarm South Africans, and there are a number of elements moving in this environment at the moment in legislative circles in South Africa, moves to disarm South Africans or affect their ability to become lawfully armed are effectively very, very serious. You and I have had discussions already around the Firearms Control Amendment bill. And we don't know when it's going to appear, but we're pretty convinced that it's going to appear in it could be in weeks or months, but certainly during this year, that it will be presented to and debated in Parliament. And it is a significant risk to public safety in terms of the fact that for many South Africans, a lawfully owned firearm, either in their own hands or in the hands of the security industry, is actually their mainstay of security, particularly in the absence of the ability of the State to look after them.Chris Steyn (03:04.97)If it were to become law, what would the effect be on the average South African gun owner or person who wishes to own a gun?Jonathan Deal (03:14.934)Well, most definitely it would hamper and almost completely impede the ability of people who would decide at some point in time that they would like to become lawfully armed to actually acquire a licensed firearm. The millions of firearm owners who are currently licensed and who rely on the comfort and protection of their licensed firearm to defend themselves and their family would be affected because they would be hampered in the renewal of their self-defense firearms. The Amendment Bill at this point in time is looking to almost completely strip us of the opportunity to own firearms for self-defense. And constitutionally we are actually permitted and guaranteed the right to effective self-defense, to freedom from all forms of violence. And that is essentially the worst thing that would happen from a self-defense point of view. And there would be an enormous impact on the other aspects of firearm, lawful firearm ownership, whether hunting, sport shooting, collecting, and these are all things that contribute a lot of money to the economy in this country. So it's not just purely a gun argument. It has many elements that should concern the South African public.Chris Steyn (04:40.998)And why should ordinary South Africans be concerned about proposed firearm regulation for the private security industry?Jonathan Deal (04:48.866)Well, I think that we could say unless you live in the desert or in a lighthouse today, either you or somebody in your family has right now in this morning been protected even vicariously by a security officer that is lawfully in possession of a firearm. Whether he might even have been parked at the same traffic light while you were waiting for it to turn green, and his mere presence there protected you from being hijacked or facing some form of violent crime. The security industry itself is between four and five times the size of the South African police services, and they are stepping into a gap, a vacuum that has been left by the State in its duty to protect and serve the South African public. So the security industry is absolutely vital. There are millions of people who rely on so-called armed response, and we know many millions more who, if they could afford it, would certainly have it. So I can't understand why an organisation that itself or a state, a government that itself is beleaguered in so at so many levels in the South African Police Service would go and meddle and fiddle with things where the public at least have some measure of protection, even if they're providing it themselves.Chris Steyn (06:24.608)And what should the public know about proposed changes to firearm training?Jonathan Deal (06:31.051)That was one of the other issues that has come to the fore recently is that there is a proposed change in the years since 2012 when the South African Police Services actually asked the private industry to stand up and create a quality assurance platform to manage the firearms proficiency training environment. That became known as the Professional Firearm Trainers Council.And subsequent to 2012 or 2013, the PFTC has certified more than three and a half million individual unit standards. In other words, it has provided proof to the South African Police Services or facilitated the public to provide proof to SAPS that they have been properly trained and lawfully trained according to a SAPS approved system.And SAPS uses that information when they are evaluating the competency of a person to be given a competency to possess a…and eventually to apply for a license. That system now is being eyed by the QCTO, which is known as the Quality Council for Trades and Occupations, which falls under the Department of Higher Education and Training in terms of replacing that training with a skills based program. Now, we know, most of us know, that there are many hundreds of unit standards in the old training systems that are being changed from unit standard to skills-based training, and we don't necessarily have a problem with that. In fact, the Professional Firearm Trainers Council has already created a very solid model for this transition to take place.The issue, Chris, that's concerning us and that should concern the public is that there is a division, an internal division in SAPS called the SAPS Internal Training Division, that would like to be involved and has been involved in bolstering the QCTO move to get rid of the Professional Firearm Trainers Council out of this environment and replace it with what I…Jonathan Deal (08:50.477)…kindly call a band of disillusioned brothers and a group of people that have got no business in managing the training that underpins public safety. And that is an enormous risk. There was a D-Day on June the 30th, which in fact is the date that Safe Citizen will be presenting a critical review of this whole issue to the government, and we'll be launching that in an interview with BizNews on that day, and the change of that date now has gone from the thirtieth of June for these skills programmes to the thirtieth of December, which makes me very concerned. Because every time this government wants to push some regulation ahead, they do it to coincide with the end of the year, when the attorneys, the legal counsel, the business people, and indeed most South Africans are enjoying their holidays, so that we all wake up in January with a changed regimen.Safe Citizen is not going to…we're not taking our foot off the gas and we're not going to relax the pressure on that. So the public needs to watch this space and they need to get involved in it.Chris Steyn (10:02.718)Well, Jonathan, in an ideal world we wouldn't be so concerned about arming ourselves and protecting ourselves. We would be able to rely on the police force to do so. But we are continuing to hear startling testimony of alleged criminal activity by top cops, some of whom have been suspended. And now Major General Feroz Khan has been subpoenaed to appear before the Madlanga Commission on July one. One of the allegations being that he received political protection from Commander-in-Chief of the Economic Freedom Fighters, Julius Malema, and in return leaked sensitive information from Crime Intelligence to him.Jonathan Deal (10:47.351)Yeah, one hundred percent, Chris. I think that if one just watches the news on a daily basis, literally on a daily basis, there are more revelations of senior generals being arrested around this Medicare thing. There is an enormous amount going on. And the public is still reeling from the revelations of the Madlanga Commission, the Parliamentary Ad Hoc Commission. And certainly, it appears that the government has lost control of this critical environment. Personally, my view is that - and I've said this in interviews with you before - that our police service has become politicised. It is used as a political football.And now we are seeing and hearing revelations, allegations, let's call it allegations at this point in time, of political interference, not even from members of necessarily the government at a high level, but leaders of political parties who are gaining access to the most sensitive Crime Intelligence information at the highest levels, and swapping that off in a quid pro quo.I don't want to speculate more on that until we have more facts, but it is it is probably this one issue that is dominating the media around the leader of the Economic Freedom Fighters, Julius Malema, and General Feroz Khan, is absolutely the best example that we could use to illustrate how critical and how critically worrying this should be for the public.Chris Steyn (12:38.324)Thank you. That was Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen. Speaking to BizNews, I'm Chris Steyn. Thanks for joining us again, Jonathan.Jonathan Deal (12:46.295)Thank you, Chris.Chris Steyn (12:49.6)Thank you.