Listen here.“Oily, sneaky. I think if he was in the Wild West in America, he would make a very good snake oil salesman.” That is the verdict by Safe Citizen Founder Jonathan Deal on suspended MP Fadiel Adams testimony before the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry. In Deal’s latest appearance on the NdB Sunday Show with Chris Steyn, Deal details the dramatic unraveling of nefarious plots and the vindication of those falsely accused “...these very watchdogs that were supposed to protect the public from corruption… they themselves have been exposed as being so corrupt…And the very people who were vilified publicly at the beginning of all of this appear to be the ones that are walking away from it with almost an apology from the State if that's going to happen.” Deal says South Africans have ended up with this rotten police force because “there is a dearth of integrity, a dearth of standards, a dearth of values in our government…our government has been permitted to do more or less what it wants.” He slams all political parties for not doing more to fight it. “The executive leadership of the country, I think in all the political parties, ought to be, if not ashamed, then very embarrassed about their lack of ability, their lack of resolve, their lack of resilience to actually manage this stuff and hold people to account.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.41)Welcome to the NdB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn and Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen. Welcome back, Jonathan.Jonathan Deal (00:11.664)Thank you, Chris. Good to be with you.Chris Steyn (00:14.786)I don't know about you, but I have felt the Oily, sneaky. I think if he was in the Wild West in America, he would make a very good snake oil salesman. , especially with the testimony of last week.Jonathan Deal (00:26.248)There has been so much that has emerged, literally, I think unless one was sitting in the gallery at the commission, it would be very difficult to keep track of everything. And of course, the tables have been turned so dramatically.Where IDAC was on a very strong charge at the beginning on the back of Fadiel Adams' allegations. That man himself has been exposed as being, let's call it rather, economical with the truth. Andrea Johnson, I think, is running for cover. And the very people who were vilified publicly at the beginning of all of this appear to be the ones that are walking away from it with almost an apology from the State if that's going to happen.Chris Steyn (01:25.55)The National Prosecuting Authority has now formally dropped corruption charges against Divisional Commissioner for Crime Intelligence, Lieutenant General Dumisani Khumalo and six other high ranking police officers.Jonathan Deal (01:41.55)Yeah, that was on the basis of a statement by an IDAC prosecutor, an admission perhaps rather, by an IDAC prosecutor that the prosecution itself was rushed and literally that the prosecution, the State's case or IDAC's case was standing on false testimony given to the Commission and obviously in the affidavits as well by Andrea Johnson. So enormous, enormous issues there. And it's frightening. It's really concerning if the machinery of the State can be literally manipulated to such an extent that people at that level can be accused of things and not perhaps we're not saying that there was no fire at all where there was smoke but certainly at this point in time it seems that the State's case has collapsed.Chris Steyn (02:43.873)Plots to discredit good cops are unraveling before our eyes, Jonathan. But what is incredibly disturbing is that people who were in a position to fight corruption and appeared to have integrity and whistleblowers were actually on the dark side, certain people, you know, either being used knowingly or being useful idiots.Jonathan Deal (03:09.111)I think the useful idiots suggestion that you make is actually a very useful comparison. Because one wonders if the people that created all of this intrigue that planned to make all of this happen actually thought, actually believed that they could get away with it.The arrogance is breathtaking and it's almost as if this culture of there being very little accountability in State institutions extended and bled into these very watchdogs that were supposed to protect the public from corruption, that they themselves have been exposed as being so corrupt.It's concerning on two levels, one that is happening and the other is that there are people that are at such a high level and such a powerful position that appear to be actually obtuse enough to think that they could literally get away with this.Chris Steyn (04:24.525)Special Leave Minister Senzo Mchunu comes to mind. He has been accused of trying to sway yet another witness.Jonathan Deal (04:33.517)Yes, we're waiting of course. I'm still absolutely intrigued about the forklift story. He is coming back to the Commission to be able to answer that allegation, and we will find out whether the evidence that was led under oath by IDAC staff implicating Minister Mchunu in the moving of that report, flying it across the country and having a close interest in that R700,000 forklift saga if there's any truth behind that at all. That will be very interesting and it was one of the central allegations against him.Chris Steyn (05:23.967)Mm. Jonathasn, we haven't had good luck with police ministers. We've also heard about his predecessor's involvement with secret funds.Jonathan Deal (05:32.366)Yeah, yeah, according to what came out of Honourable Adams's report or affidavit, there was really an allegation, nothing very specific, about some of the CI secret funds having found their way to ex-Minister Bheki Cele. At this point in time, given the patent unreliability of Adams' testimony in general, I would be rather circumspect about lending that any credibility. It is a theory that may fly, but I think it needs solid proof before people start thinking about it seriously.Chris Steyn (06:21.014)Talking about Adams, what did you make of his conduct at the Matlanga Commission of Inquiry? His general conduct.Jonathan Deal (06:28.533)Oily, sneaky. I think if he was in the Wild West in America, he would make a very good snake oil salesman. That's about the most charitable thing that I can say about him. He tried to ingratiate himself with the commission, using all sorts of colloquial terms.And generally just, he was just, one could see, he was, I wouldn't have believed him for a second. And I don't think the commission did either.Chris Steyn (07:09.08)And I don't think his former friend, former IDAC Chief Andrea Johnson was impressed with this evidence because he turned on her, didn't he?Jonathan Deal (07:17.955)Yes, I think that's of course we know, you know, there's very little honour amongst thieves. I'm not calling either of them a thief directly, but when people that have been colluding and who are caught out in their collusion with dishonesty, one can expect them to turn on each other. And… I think Andrea Johnson, I sincerely hope that if the allegations against her all hold up and bearing in mind that we're dealing with a commission and not a court of law and a proper prosecution process. If that eventually holds up, then I think that she deserves everything that will be coming to her.Chris Steyn (08:04.152)Hm. It will be very interesting to see whom Tenderpreneur Cat Matlala is going to turn against when he gives evidence properly because we've only heard very restricted evidence.Jonathan Deal (08:19.097)Yeah, absolutely. And I'm really, really keen to hear if there is anything more to the Matlala-Malema relationship and what's going to come out of that. Mr. Malema has still not been called. One wonders if he is going to be called at all. I certainly think that the country would be very interested to hear his response to these allegations and rather, maybe a little bit more concrete than just saying, well, he can't answer as to the WhatsApps and that evidence, the people that we're involved with it can, as if he had nothing to do with it. So that'll be interesting. But Mr. Malema, of course, is a survivor. This is not his first rodeo in things of which there is dissension.Chris Steyn (09:15.412)Hm. But indeed, when we first heard the allegations of police and political capture, everybody focused on the African National Congress. But since then other political parties and politicians have been dragged into it.Jonathan Deal (09:28.493)Yes, I think I'm not quite sure if it ties into the subject matter that the Commission has been concerned with, but certainly the Democratic Alliance has got a bit of a problem, I think, with their finance chap and some very serious allegations there in terms of big money. The ANC has certainly made a bit of a fuss about it this week, asking if there are double standards around conflict of interests and members of Parliament. So the fall-out is certainly wider than the ANC and perhaps it's what everybody needs is a very good shake-up.Chris Steyn (10:14.422)I think people are waiting on tender hooks for the evidence of Lieutenant General Feroz Khan, the CI chief who was shot and could not appear before the commission.Jonathan Deal (10:26.659)Yes, I think he's been called back for the 1st of September, if I'm correct. And although the summons has been issued, there appears to be some doubt whether he will be able to attend. He is at the moment, I think, being kept safe in an undisclosed location. And certainly, he's one of the key people that we'd like to hear from in this. No doubt.Chris Steyn (10:50.624)Mm. But with all the evidence, IDAC has now become powerless. There's a huge vacuum.Jonathan Deal (11:01.773)I think that, and Glynis Breytenbach from the DA quite correctly points out, that there's nobody leading it. And if one looks at what has happened, and certainly even Justice Madlanga's comments, IDAC, there seems to be a general impression at executive level that IDAC should actually just be disbanded, that it just cannot survive politically or in terms of its job.Chris Steyn (11:38.744)Hm. Okay, and there is a push now for National Commissioner Fannie Masemola to be reinstated.Jonathan Deal (11:47.694)Well, police, the POPCR certainly insisted to President Ramaphosa that given the fact that the charges have collapsed, unconditionally being withdrawn, that the general must be reinstated with immediate effect and some of the other co-accused.Chris Steyn (12:11.218)Mm. Now, somebody who's been very quiet is suspended Deputy National Commissioner Shadrack Sibiya.Jonathan Deal (12:22.253)He has and one is still wondering when some of that evidence is going to be led and tested. Somebody quite close to him was in the news this week, the businessman Stuart Scharnick who apparently intimidated or tried to intimidate a journalist from the Sowetan who promptly laid the case of criminal intimidation and Mr. Scharnick was arrested immediately. And he has been...identified as the person that then became the driver of Sabiya after Sabiya had his executive protection detail cancelled. And it's really curious, you know, the connections that run through and threads that run through all of these relationships and how they are intermingled. But Sabiya is going to be an interesting one to see what comes of that.Chris Steyn (13:24.11)Mm.Chris Steyn (13:29.228)Yeah, wasn't he in Parliament when Sabiya appeared at the Ad Hoc Committee?Jonathan Deal (13:34.957)He was, yeah, he was.Chris Steyn (13:37.378)Mm. Jonathan, what else stood out for you over the past week of evidence?Jonathan Deal (13:44.418)I think that this week at Madlanga, the backstory, the important backstory for South Africans, apart from all of this intrigue, and Chris, you and I have just literally skimmed the surface this afternoon, is that it stopped being about who did what to whom, but it's actually become a stress test of whether Madlanga can actually survive its own scrutiny. And that's on the basis of the NPA unconditionally withdrawing the charges. And if you layer into all of that Fadiel Adams' testimony, the man who set this whole inquiry running, and spent three days being told by the Commission's own lawyers that his story doesn't add up, the Political Killings Task Team, evidence that has been led and some of the allegations that were made by Adams in that regard. We have Cat Matlala keeping his mouth shut behind privilege in other criminal matters. Feroz Khan certainly has now a firm date to answer for his ties to Julius Malema, even though Malema himself still hasn't been summoned. And Julius Mkhwanazi, please let's not make a mistake with the Mkhwanazi from KwaZulu-Natal, is basically walking between four separate courtrooms while the State this week has suddenly stopped opposing his bail. So one wonders what's happening there. And the question I want to ask is that do we think that the State has got the appetite to prosecute and follow this thieving, this thuggery, this corruption to actually…Jonathan Deal (15:44.554)…give teeth to the Madlanga Commission or are we going to be wondering whether the final report that is due on the 16th of November is going to land as a charge sheet or just a very long, very expensive list of names that nobody will actually convict? That's the question.Chris Steyn (16:03.106)What has been particularly chilling is testimony about the plot to remove the good general, the good Mkhwanazi, from his position.Jonathan Deal (16:13.485)Yes, yeah, yeah. And I think that Mr. Paul O’Sullivan had a lot to say about that at one stage. Really an enormous amount to say and I think that we know that a good General Mkhwanazi has been reconfirmed in his tenure in that position for another five years.And I have an unchanged view on him - chatting to somebody about it this morning, in fact. And out of all of us, he is the one that is emerging, smelling of roses and looking like a national hero.Chris Steyn (16:53.932)And he has been appointed to head Organised Crime investigations nationally.Jonathan Deal (16:59.341)Yeah, and certainly the best man for the job given the present incumbents.Chris Steyn (17:06.83)Hm. As the founder of Safe Citizen, when you hear all this, how do you think us ordinary citizens ended up with a police force like this, as rotten as this?Jonathan Deal (17:24.779)I think that...there is a dearth of integrity, a dearth of standards, a dearth of values in our government. And that our government has been permitted to do more or less what it wants.I think that it's unequivocal that the cadre deployment policy of the government led to many people being put into positions that they were technically incompetent to hold. And not only that, but in terms of their own values, honesty and ethics should have been disqualified from in the first place.The public in this country, given the economic circumstances, given the challenges that this country and all nations in the world faced in 2020 with COVID, I think that those types of issues were a perfect storm for the corrupt persons to ply their trade and make...their plans and to get away with as much as they can. The executive leadership of the country, I think in all the political parties, ought to be, if not ashamed, then very embarrassed about their lack of ability, their lack of resolve, their lack of resilience…Jonathan Deal (19:19.139)….to actually manage this stuff and hold people to account. Speaking as the leader of Safe Citizen, looking at it from an institutional point of view, where we are enormously concerned about the environment of public safety in this country. And let's be honest, the issues under the microscope at Madlanga and even Zondo, go to the heart of public safety because they deal with the justice system and the police. All that I can say is that for us, it is also the perfect storm at the moment because it is vindicating our statements over the past month and years that public safety in this country is at an all-time low.And that at this point in time the State ought to be doing everything that they can to support the public, including for instance lawfully armed citizens, rather than making plans to disarm them and expose them to the type of practices and thuggery that we have seen exposed to us in the last months and years.Chris Steyn (20:34.008)Thank you. That was Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen. Speaking to BizNews, I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Jonathan.Jonathan Deal (20:42.723)Thank you, Chris.