Juanita Du Preez: Police- and political capture - more worms crawl out the can…

There have been dramatic scenes in Parliament where the Ad Hoc Committee has resumed hearing testimony of police and political capture. In her latest interview with BizNews, Juanita du Preez of Action Society speaks to Chris Steyn about Crime Intelligence (CI) Chief General Dumisani Khumalo’s warning that criminal organisations survive by their connections to politicians, law enforcement officials and business leaders who leak sensitive information to derail investigations. She also comments on the heated exchange between the Democratic Alliance’s (DA’s) Glynnis Breytenbach and the Economic Freedom Fighters’ (EFF’s) Leigh Ann Mathys; former IPID boss Robert McBride gunning for General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi; and the Committee's decision to compel forensic investigator Paul O'Sullivan to appear in person - despite his fears for his life..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.4)There have been dramatic scenes in Parliament where the Ad Hoc Committee is hearing testimony of police and political capture. Somebody who is watching closely is Juanita du Preez of Action Society, and she is with me now. Welcome, JuanitaJuanita Du Preez (00:19.854)G'day Chris and welcome to 2026 where the drama continues.Chris Steyn (00:28.238)Well, it's not only cop versus cop or politician versus politician, but it's also committee member against committee member.Juanita Du Preez (00:37.548)We're used to having the EFF and them making a circus of anything in Parliament. And now, usually when it's SONA and usually when it's the Budget debate. But now it seems it's everywhere. Yes. So very exciting times. entertaining.Juanita Du Preez (01:04.329)It's entertaining to watch, but are we getting, are we progressing or is it just wasting more time?Chris Steyn (01:13.786)The Democratic Alliance’s Glynnis Breytenbach, who likes a good fight in Parliament had quite a exchange with the Economic Freedom Fighters’ Leigh Ann Mathys.Juanita Du Preez (01:47.404)Yes, it's always so nice to listen to Glynnis Breytenbach because, and then again, obviously everybody knows EFF is not my favourite party, but it is so interesting to watch when Glynnis when Glynnis Breytenbach actually put people in place because she speaks facts, she speaks with authority.And I think people should just sit down when Glynnis takes you on because she doesn't come with unfounded things and she doesn't play for the audience. She knows what is right. She wants to make a point and she wants true justice to come out. And that's been how she's been from when she started her not just political career, but her legal career. So yeah, let's, I'm obviously leaning towards the side of Glynnis Breytenbach because the EFF always brings such silly arguments and they will stand by their silly arguments forever.Chris Steyn (03:04.899)So, Crime Intelligence chief, General Dumisane Khumalo was back and riveting testimony about how criminal organisations and cartels survive by their connections to politicians, law enforcement officials and business leaders who leak sensitive information to derail investigations. Makes sense of so many cases that never go anywhere.Juanita Du Preez (03:34.99)Yes, it makes complete sense. Again, it doesn't feel like new news, but it's just every time we hear more and more people coming forward and saying the same things, that there are legs, that there are people who are not above, or who think they are above the law, but who's bending the law. And I'm really happy about this because this is what we want to hear. want to hear more and more more evidence.I'm trying to think of the word. We want to hear more and more more evidence which just proves what Mkhwanazi said and all the nests, the Pandora's box that he opened. Because remember now with Robert McBride, he is saying that Mkhwanazi is also not as innocent as everybody believes he is and so on and so forth.But then again, you have to take it from who it's coming from. And Robert McBride is a very controversial figure. Yeah, the public opinion is mixed about what is coming out. I think Robert McBride is in his, if you set aside his controversial history, if you just listen to what he's been saying, some of the things he will not admit to or he keeps secret. So it doesn't seem like he is a credible person just because he's not answering many of the questions that he's supposed to answer.Chris Steyn (05:32.026)Including what he does for a job.Juanita Du Preez (05:35.912)Exactly. What does he do? Where is he? He was in the past, he was the head of IPID and this is what his testimony is centering around, how Mkhwanazi was trying to influence IPID decisions. On the one hand, I have to agree with what McBride said, that IPID should be independent from the police because, and Action Society has been saying that for a very long time. We actually did Parliamentary submissions about that. You cannot have a watchdog who reports to the person or well, the head person that you are supposed to investigate or keep an eye on. So for that part, I agree with McBride. But some of the other things that he's saying is just not….It’s just not credible, even putting his controversial history aside.Chris Steyn (06:40.068)What did you think of his attitude towards the committee?Juanita Du Preez (06:43.81)Well, that's not new. We know him as somebody who also likes a fight and it's no different now. And almost disrespectful, but that's how we know him. That is how, he's almost the my way or the highway type of guy, but the highway is not always the right way, but it's his way.Chris Steyn (07:15.652)General Khumalo also testified about fabrication of evidence to remove him from office. And he wasn't the only one. The former acting National Police Commissioner Komotso Phalane also testified of an orchestrated campaign to destroy his career and his personal life.Juanita Du Preez (07:35.65)Yes, they've been saying that - and on the one hand, yes, it could be true, but on the other hand, it could be an orchestrated process from their side because they are in the hot seats. So obviously they're going to try anything to protect their jobs, their side stream incomes and all of that.It would be very interesting to see what the reports say in the end and what the findings are with the evidence that at the end, all of the evidence that we've heard, because it can be this or it can be something else. And everybody is contradicting each other because they are all scrambling. And we've said this many times, Chris, that everybody is scrambling to cover their own backs. And I don't think it's going to change. It is up to the people who are in the commission and the committee to decide from the evidence what is right and what is wrong. I think people should just remember, I… don't think everybody knows. So the Parliamentary committee, it's doing its work fast and almost rushed, but they're getting through stuff. And then the Commission is taking a bit longer. They extended their deadline and, but they already gave their first interim report as it was scheduled in December. And now the final one is supposed to be in March, but I'm not sure if they will get through everything by March. So maybe they will do another interim report and then extend their deadline again. But the point that I wanted to make is the Parliamentary committee, they're just doing oversight. So there's information coming out and so on, but they don't have the teeth to...Juanita Du Preez (10:01.172)…they can make recommendations of what should happen and what we have seen in the past sometimes it doesn't or more times than less it really doesn't go anywhere after that, but the commission they have the authority to take legal action or to recommend legal action to have legal repercussions. So it's interesting to watch both. And I'm sure that the commission watches the committee and the committee watches the commission and it influences each other. But the one that we have to keep our eye on because that's where there's going to be repercussions is the Madlanga Commission.Chris Steyn (10:49.562)I don't know about you, but one can tell from the way people pose questions, how they have preconceived ideas, or some people seem to have made up their minds already without having heard all the evidence.Juanita Du Preez (11:03.518)Yes, definitely. Not just because they are listening to the other group, but I think they are, we know that there are people who support Julius, not Julius, General Mkhwanazi, who support him from the get-go and nothing brought against him will make them change their mind. And I think that's a big…Juanita Du Preez (11:32.492)…part of the population. But we have to keep our wits about ourselves because it can still be that he is not telling the truth. And that is why we want all the evidence and it should be weighed up against everything, all the testimony, all the witnesses, statements and so on. Then, and that brings us to that there is a preconceived attitude amongst many of the people doing the questioning. But I do hope that other people are more balanced and actually look at the facts without having a preconceived notion of where they wanted to go.Chris Steyn (12:24.43)What do you think of the Committee's decision to compel forensic investigator Paul O'Sullivan to appear in person despite his fears for his life?Juanita Du Preez (12:35.052)Well, we've had so many people who's apparently fearing for their lives now. Mr. Mogotsi was one of them and I think Sibiya was also saying he's fearing for his life. But yes, I think O'Sullivan should have his day in the hot seat because he is so intrinsically involved and his name pops up everywhere. So...let him have his hot seat, ask the right questions and then weigh the evidence that is coming from that. You cannot be this involved and then just stand on the sidelines. He is not an objective spectator, he is an active participant in everything that has happened.Chris Steyn (13:25.174)What evidence that's been led so far this year stands out for you.Juanita Du Preez (13:32.82)Sure, have to. What's interesting is the WhatsApp messages that they are looking at. And we obviously don't know everything that's in the WhatsApp messages, but that's very interesting to me how…Again, how credible is that? Because it could be a ruse, but that's interesting. I'm keeping my eye on that. It's interesting to see what is coming out. And then we must just be careful not to read between the lines too much. But in some cases we have to read between the lines. It's so difficult to, as somebody who's not involved in it, it's so difficult to know what is the real truth. What is the real evidence without being so involved? And I think that's what makes it, I want to say entertaining, but interesting is a better word. I think that is what makes it so interesting. It is everybody against everybody. And in the end, will have to be the evidence weighed against the evidence.Chris Steyn (15:00.778)I mean thus far we've seen a multitude of allegations with little accountability but do you think that this can of worms that's been opened well not really a can there's a whole pantry full of cans of worms that's been opened will deterChris Steyn (15:24.068)corruption in the police.Juanita Du Preez (15:28.756)I hope so. I honestly hope so, but...On the one hand, I think they know that there are more eyes on them right now. So it can go one side or the other side. And the one side is that they get more clever. They find better ways to be corrupt. And the other way that I hope it goes is that they find other hobbies to keep them busy or maybe find real jobs and work like normal South Africans for their money without being corrupt and without having manipulation and political interference and all of that. I do hope that it deters and that we really start seeing a change in...political involvement leading to corruption in South Africa and affecting all South Africans in the long run. But I don't want to be foolish and think that things are going to change quickly in South Africa because it's been such an established way of working for so many people that it feels like it's just the tip of the iceberg that we are touching on now. And it goes much wider. I think there is touching on many, like the hospital scandals and so on and so forth. It's touching on that, but it's not as detailed or complete as we need in South Africa to really turn it around. But hopefully this will…Juanita Du Preez (17:32.975)…get the ball rolling so that we do see that change. And then I want to, I was thinking about that a lot over the December holidays and so on, catching up on some nice light reading about politics. I really want to do a shout out to journalists and people who don't say, well, it's the way it is and I just turn a blind eye and well, what can we do? The people who really, and in some cases, put their lives on the line to bring out the truth. Then I hope that the right people will take the lead from there. The evidence is on the table and...now do something about it. It should not just be exposed and then nothing happens. But I really wanted to do a big shout out to the people who are bringing the truth to the fore.Chris Steyn (18:44.986)At the very least, there has been some public shaming of some people who thought themselves completely untouchable and who thought they had everything under control.Juanita Du Preez (18:56.738)Yes, and that's fair and that should happen. Nobody is untouchable. And I think when you start thinking about being untouchable, then you're already on the wrong side. Then you're over the tip. Then your mind's made up that you are untouchable and that you can get away with everything. then, yeah, then you deserve what you get.Chris Steyn (19:25.604)From where you're sitting and where you're struggling to get cases through the courts, I'm sure you're hoping that this will filter down.Juanita Du Preez (19:34.061)Definitely. Just yesterday, we were in court in the Western Cape. It's a case, Nadia Lotz. And I can just quickly tell you, so they were driving in a car and there was a fight. Her boyfriend, the father of her three children, she was sitting in front in the passenger seat. Her friend was driving and he was sitting in the back. There was an argument. There's been domestic violence problems before and he leaned over, slit her throat… and unfortunately she passed away on the side of the road because she tried to jump out of the, or she jumped out of the car to get away but he already slit her throat and she died by the side of the road. So this has been ongoing. Yesterday we counted because they were busy with the defense was supposed to bring their side of the story. And it was postponed again. And it's the 23rd time since this case went to court. Remember, it takes some time before the court process starts and the defense said they're not ready. And this is the reason why.But this is one example, and this one is fresh in my mind now. And this is the things that we do see. This year, really want to not, like I said earlier, not just say, well, court process is really long. We want to actively work to ensure that the court process is sped up because justice delayed is also justice denied.And yeah, it's not going to be a short quick click of the fingers and then we have it done. But this is what we want to focus on one of the key focus points that we want to put our energy in this year. And I hope that, yeah, everything that's happening on top with this commission and the corruption and so on, that it does filter through…Juanita Du Preez (21:48.312)…to normal South Africans who's not involved with the political corruption, big arena stuff that we are seeing.Chris Steyn (21:57.38)Thank you. That was Juanita Du Preez of Action Society. Speaking to BizNews, I'm Chris Steyn.

Juanita Du Preez: Police- and political capture - more worms crawl out the can…

Related Stories

Jonathan Deal - Fight against “disarmament” of citizens as another top cop falls…

Solly Moeng: Vote out “all these mad men and women in politics”...

The NdB Sunday Show: Lauren Evanthia - Tender tycoons, political treachery & human tragedy…

Juanita du Preez: The police generals are falling like dominoes…