Kallie Kriel: Rumours of an Afrikaner Armed Struggle are "ludicrous"!

“An armed struggle is not something that we would embark on - ever.” That was the assurance given by AfriForum’s Kallie Kriel when Chris Steyn asked him to comment on a screenshot of a post making the rounds on Social Media with claims from an unnamed intelligence officer that AfriForum and some other civic rights organisations were procuring high-calibre arms from abroad to overthrow the State and take back power. He also tells Steyn why he defines himself as a patriot - and not as a traitor. Kriel shares details of his request for support to the G20 countries, and the solutions he presented to them. He further divulges details of affidavits submitted to the Khampepe Commission to show that there was not only political interference to ensure that members of the Apartheid Security Forces weren't prosecuted after the TRC, but that there was also political interference to stop African National Congress (ANC) members from being prosecuted. Commenting on the Madlanga Commission enquiry into police and political capture, Kriel says: “…we cannot fix the police. But what we can do is, within the framework of the law, we can organise our communities within neighbourhood watches to try and play that role. And in every sphere where government fails, we try and build a civil society solution.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:02.01)To some, he is a patriot. To others, a traitor. That is Kallie Kriel of AfriForum. And he is with me now. Welcome, Kallie. Kallie Kriel (00:11.719)Thank you so much, Chris, it's really a pleasure speaking to you. Chris Steyn (00:16.176)How do you define yourself, Kallie? Kallie Kriel (00:19.198)Of course a patriot and I think those people that want to shift the blame to someone else are those that want to try and divert attention away from the negative consequences of their own behavior. And if you look at something that happened in Zimbabwe, people there that did not take a stand against disrespectful property rights, were actually complicit in the fact that we have seen the hyperinflation. We’ve seen growing poverty, growing joblessness, and people actually fleeing from that country to South Africa. So if you are going to be a denialist or try to play down fears of disrespect for property rights, branding it as so-called misinformation, then you are actually complicit. So we are fighting for the interest of people in this country. And those that don't want to recognise the real problems and allows the ANC to get away with it by calling us traitors, they are actually complicit because they are collaborating with the ANC destroying this country. Chris Steyn (01:30.566)Kalliie, you have probably seen the screenshot of a post making the rounds on social media today. And it claims that an unnamed intelligence official has shared information that AfriForum and some other civic rights organisations are procuring high-calibre arms from abroad to overthrow the State and take back power. Kallie Kriel (01:58.136)Well, it's actually ludicrous to see that. The fact is, it's not something that is surprising at the moment. What we've seen since the 3rd of February this year, it was only one day after President Trump made his first post on Truth Social saying that he wants to withdraw support to South Africa. From then, we've seen a concerted effort to try and tarnish the name of AfriForum or to try and discredit us. Many methods were used, and this is only another one. But fortunately, I believe the majority of people in this country are clever enough to know when something is totally ludicrous or if these attacks are unfair. And there might be some motive, again, in this one, to discredit us, but of course, I think people would know that is not the way we've conducted ourselves. Our track record shows that we are an organisation working within the framework of the law, using courts. When we protest, it's a peaceful protest that we use. We also, of course, use international pressure. But, of course, an armed struggle is not something that we would embark on ever. Chris Steyn (03:23.014)Kallie, what do you feel you have achieved thus far with all your international campaigning and lobbying? Kallie Kriel (03:30.702)Well, for many years we had a situation where the ANC were able to get away and they made use of the Mandela era and the international war that was around that era. And people took quite a long time in the world to realise that the ANC of today is no longer the ANC of former President Nelson Mandela. And I think one of the good things is, over the past years there's been increasing success to expose irresponsible policy directions that we are seeing in the country. But of course, it's not only achievement from outside. I think the ANC has done a lot themselves to discredit themselves in the eyes of the international community. We don't want to see the country discredited and one should always make a distinction between the ANC leadership and the country. It's not the same thing. If you oppose irresponsible policies of the ANC, it does not mean you oppose the country. If you expose many other things of them, you're not exposing the country. But why is international pressure needed? Maybe I should just give a background in that regard. If one goes and reads the ANC policy documents, and I believe that is important for everybody because they determine the playing field in terms of how you bring about change in South Africa. And in their strategy and tactics documents, - they have a number of them before every National Congress, they get a new one, but with very old concepts, concepts that comes from the Cold War. They have what they call the National Democratic Revolution. Then they say they have the motive forces that support them. Then they have this evil group called the Anti-Revolutionary forces, which we are proud that they have called us that before. And then they speak about the balance of forces. They would say, or they have written, in 1994, they did not control what they call the centres of power. Kallie Kriel (05:47.726)I means the police, the civil service, the army. And now they're quite proud is that they've gained full control of that. And they say then in terms of the balance of forces, they were unable to do just in 20, 30 years ago, they can now do. So we would not have seen President Ramaphosa signing the Expropriation Act 20 or so years ago. We would not have seen him sign the Bela Act that target specifically Afrikaner schools. So what we've seen is the ANC believes in terms of the balance of forces, they are in full control, which have quite negative consequences for AfriForum and any other civil society organisation that wants to bring about change. Because it means if you have a protest in the country and the ANC feels they're strong enough to simply ignore you, they will do so. If you write a letter, as we've done; we’ve written to the president in April already last year to say, please refer back the Expropriation Act to Parliament. And we gave reasons. Expropriation without Compensation, Section 12.3 that says there can be no compensation. We said to him it's unconstitutional, Section 19.2 that allows expropriation to take place before you go to court, is also unconstitutional. We wrote that to him, but he simply just ignored us. He had a feeling, well, we are strong enough. I don't have to listen. The same with regard to the Kill the Farmer chant. We wrote to the president to say, please condemn this. And he actually totally ignored that again. His spokesperson made some sarcastic remark later with regard to that. So now you sit in a situation where locally, you have written to the president. You have the Kill the Boer, the farmer chant. We've used all our resources or all our ability, all the available methods that we could use going up until the Constitutional Court. And the court said it's fine. So then the question is, what should we do now? Because the ANC listens to balance of forces. So you have to now get additional pressure. Kallie Kriel (08:15.2)It's so; that is why the fact that the Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer chant was recognised and taken on in the White House is for us a positive measure. The fact that this respect for property rights and the dangers of what we are seeing if that act is being implemented, that the world spotlight is on that. Of course, this has been mentioned in the US and hyperbole were used. So people would now say, no, but there hasn't been properties expropriated on a large scale. But the gist doesn't change. There might not have been those kinds of expropriation up until now. But what we've seen, it wasn't possible until now. We now have an act that allows for that. So if you see a loaded gun and you're worried about that and you tell the world somebody's got a loaded gun, and then somebody comes with the argument, but this gun hasn't been used, so don't worry. That argument won't work. So, unfortunately, international pressure is needed. The president says we need to find South African solutions for South African problems. He said that in Parliament. But, of course, that is our stance. But he's lying when he says that because he does not want to find South African solutions. Chris Steyn (09:44.14)Meanwhile, Kallie, you have written to the embassies of the G20 countries to ask for support. What are you hoping they will do? Kallie Kriel (09:55.246)Well, I think firstly, it's in the interest of the country that these issues should be solved. You know, many people say, well, look what you've done. We now see high tariffs and other measures taken against South Africa. But the facts are it's exactly the opposite. We've seen that what was coming now in a sense that already in 2023; there was a Bill before the House of Representatives in the US asking for a review of relations with South Africa. That was under the Biden era, and it was also driven by Democrats and Republicans. And if you go look at what is in there, the disrespect for property rights, the fact that South Africa has ties with Iran, that they hold Navy operations together with China and Russia, all those things were listed. And we saw here is trouble on the horizon. Then, of course, when President Ramaphosa signed the Expropriation Act, and they only announced it on the 23rd of January, within 10 days, President Trump said he was taking action because there was a disrespect for property rights. So there's a direct correlation between things that the ANC are doing and what's happening. So our stance is, well, we can sit back and see how the country is going to be punished. And we've seen that already, unfortunately. Or we can try to save the day. How can the day be saved? There are two options. Because the Americans are going to act against South Africa. So you can either convince them not to punish the country but rather to punish the ANC leaders that are responsible for this. But the big prize, the best solution would not be that. The best solution would be to make sure, let's look at what the real issues are, identify them and solve them. And unfortunately those also from other political parties that said this is all because of misinformation…..Read more:.Ian Cameron - You will not take our guns!.Kallie Kriel (12:15.754)…actually created the situation that they've made it harder to bring about change. They should have come forward and said, you know, it's right. The signing of the Expropriation Act threatens the country's economy. Let's address that. The Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer chant brings about polariaation. Let's take on those issues. But now it's been denied. So we are still going ahead to say, but we still want the solution and now I come back to your actual question with regard to the G20. To say what are the solutions that we need? Our colleagues at Solidarity, they focus quite a lot in terms of race regulations in the country and aAffirmative Action and BEE. There are also solutions in that regard. But we've said what are the problems and what can we do about it? That President Trump has stated clearly with regard to the Kill the Farmer chant that that is a problem. So what we wrote to the G20 countries, we also wrote it to the ANC. We also wrote it to the ANC-led government, also to the US to see what can be done. So with regard to farm murders, the President can condemn it. We can declare farm murders a priority crime. That does not mean...if you say something is a priority crime, it doesn't mean it's more important than others. In South Africa, it works like that. If there's a specific crime category that needs a specific strategy, you declare it a priority crime. In that way, gang violence is a priority crime because you need a specific strategy. Even right right now poaching is a priority crime. So, what we are saying, declare a farm murder as priority crime and then cooperate with farm watchers that are functioning within the framework of the law, such as ours, but there are also many others. With regard to the Expropriation Act, the solution would be, and we also said to the G20 countries that they should also promote the solution, make sure that Section 19.2 or… Kallie Kriel (14:30.36)…tell the South African government that they believe Section 19.2 should be changed so that the court should first give a decision before its procreation can take place. And of course, I don't know if you've seen, AfriForum is busy with a court case in the country to be together with the DAs also in that case. And the president acknowledged that that should change. Why didn't listen to us in last year in April? It is probably just because the election was more important for him. His party's interests were more important than the country. Then of course, Section 12.3 should be scrapped because that allows for nil compensation. And, you know, any international investor - while you'll know better, you work for this media that focuses also on business issues - if international investors simply hear the word nil compensation, they won't invest. And then of course, Solidarity has a lot of solutions with regard to the Affirmative Action issues. The international law says these measures should be temporary. The International Labour Organisation is part of the regulations, so these things can be phased out. Of course, Africa should have a neutral foreign policy, non-aligned foreign policy. Those are the kind of things that should be done to try and save the day. And so that is we are trying to continue putting pressure on the South African government to make sure that we see real change and real change would of course solve the situation. In the meanwhile, we are still engaging with the US to say, well, what can be done so that you don't punish the ordinary people. Because tariffs would, of course, also affect farmers, farm workers, people working in factories. And the one proposal Solidarity made was just look at certain categories and do not apply this to those categories. So those proposals were in. I'm not saying at all that President Trump's exemption of certain… Kallie Kriel (16:54.734)…certain categories of, for instance, citrus in South Africa and elsewhere in the world is directly because Solidarity asked to do so. But of course, we ask for those kind of things to happen to try and make sure that the impact on the country can be as soft as possible. Chris Steyn (17:19.066)Let's talk about the Khampepe Commission. It got off to a false start. Now, this is the commission that is supposed to investigate suppression of investigations and prosecutions of TRC cases. This is of particular interest to you, Kallie Kallie Kriel (17:37.548)Yes,I think broadly in terms of what our organisation stands for is equality before the law. But of course, also in terms of the view of history, we want to make sure what the ANC is trying to do is to say Afrikaners were the bad guys and they were the angels. Of course, the Apartheid system was not justifiable and could not be sustained also in the end. But there's an ongoing effort to try and sanitize the role that the ANC played. And we know, of course, the ANC in 1985 at …. from the 19th of June to the 23rd of June, the ANC National Consultative Congress there decided that the distinction between so-called hard and soft targets should disappear. And then they then also decided on a landmine campaign, Operation Setswayom which then said, are going to target civilians with that as well. So one of our members already in 2017 contacted us. He lost his wife and two children, a two-year-old son and an eight-year-old daughter and his wife…there was then an effort to start prosecutions. And he said, well, why aren't those leaders that took the decision… and did not get amnesty? Why aren't they prosecuted? And now recently, we represent now also the Van den Merwe family. Jaap van den Merwe was killed on the 1st of November, 1979. Sorry, 1978, he was killed near the Botswana border. He was driving in his bakkie, he saw people hitchhiking, he did a good deed, picked them up, but in the end it was MK. or ANC infiltrators into the country that he stopped for. After a while, they at gunpoint, Kallie Kriel (19:55.308), they stopped him, they asked him to walk into the bush. When he walked away, they shot him in the back. They turned him around, shot him in the head. And his body was up until this day, his body was not found. And nobody has been prosecuted. There was an informer that later told the story, and it was corroborated when he said Van der Merwe’s telescope was taken, and that was then found in an ANC arms cache. So the name of the persons involved are known to us. They are known to authorities. There's one still, one of them is still alive, but he worked under the name John Masibi, which we know what his name is, his real name is. He did not apply for amnesty, but he was the one shooting for Mr. Van der Merwe in the back, then shot him in the head. And Mr. Van deer Merwe's wife, his son, went to the TRC telling the story and her issue was, I just want answers. I don't know where the remains of my husband is. We cannot find closure. But nobody went to the TRC to ask for amnesty in that regard. So the person today is a staunch supporter still of the ANC. He's involved in the ANC Veterans League, but he's not being prosecuted. So our stance is why aren't they prosecuted? And specifically the Khampepe Commission is now looking at why weren't people prosecuted? But of course, President Ramaphosa set this up with the main focus…for the Calata family, the Simelane family. And from our side, we believe those families need answers. So our action is not against that. Our action is saying, well, if people are now looking for answers, then the….. others also deserve answers. And there's now an effort to say what political interference was there since 2003 to make sure that members of the former Security Forces weren't prosecuted. Kallie Kriel (22:20.344)But there was also political interference to stop ANC members from being prosecuted. And we have also affidavits. In my affidavit that was given into the Khampepe Commission. I have supporting affidavits. But I, for instance, also had interviews with someone, Advocate … who worked with the National Prosecuting Authority. And he and his team were investigating these ANC atrocities. And in the early 2000s, Advocate Bulelani Ngcuka, who was the Director of National Prosecution, came to his office saying, all these dossiers, we are not going to investigate them further, and he took it away. I also then have signed affidavit by specifically Colonel Vreugtenberg. He investigated the Van den Merwe case. And there, he said there was reluctance to go after the Van der Merwe case, even if they knew who it was. And the signal he got is, we're not interested in looking at the atrocities of the ANC. We're simply going to focus on the former security forces. So we are in this commission to state this case. And if there's some reasons for given by the commission, should also then look at these and if they give recommendations, the Van der Merwe family should also be handled in the same way as the Calata family..Read more:.Neil de Beer: The State v/s AfriForum, Cyril’s successors line up – and SA’s “atomic” relationship with Iran.Chris Steyn (24:03.91)Now, meanwhile, Kalil,e we have heard staggering and damning evidence of police and political capture at the Madlanga Commission of inquiry. What is your take on it thus far? Kallie Kriel (24:18.732)No, I think I don't want to oversimplify it, but when we got to a situation where things started going wrong was when the cadre deployment became a policy and you had all these institutions. You got cadres being appointed, Riah Piyega, when she was appointed, not coming from the police, and it was political. So what has now happened? If you start to have political infighting within the ANC, it spills over to the other institutions of the state. So my view is that the political infighting has now actually led to these revelations and it would have been swept under the carpet if it was not now useful to bring it to the fore. But that is unfortunate, worse than unfortunate because the State has a monopoly on the criminal justice system. And they have the Police Service. We can now bring in private security. We can do that. We can do private investigations. But in the end, you don't have the powers that they have. In terms of the courts, they have the power over the giving of judgments. So if the courts are deteriorating in terms of the backlog in terms of cases, it takes years to come to a point where somebody can be convicted. And you have a National Prosecution Authority that does not prosecute without fear, favour, or prejudice, then that is, of course, a huge problem. So as long as we don't fix the criminal justice system, we will have no chance in fighting corruption, in fighting the high crime rate. So the system needs to be cleaned, but of course, then there needs to be change in the sense. I can't see Cyril Rampahosa acting to rectify these things. The fact is many of the things that he appoints a commission of inquiry into, the fact is that could have been solved in other ways… Kallie Kriel (26:44.238)…if somebody is corrupt. In terms of the Zondo Commission, shouldn't have been needed. If the criminal justice system worked, you can identify who the corrupt people are and take action against them and prosecute them. So unfortunately, I don't see a solution in the near future. But of course, our strategy is always to say we try to influence the realities. But if you don't succeed, or whatever, succeed or not succeed, then say, well, we take out the future into our own hands within the framework of the law. So we cannot fix the police. But what we can do is within the framework of the law, we can organise our communities within neighbourhood watches to try and play that role. And in every sphere where government fails, we try and build a civil society solution. It's not always easy, even in terms of prosecutions. We set up the Private Prosecution Authority to Prosecute where the state fails. So there is hope, but the hope is not in the hands of the ANC-led government. It's in the hands of communities that must use the hands and brain they received to draw up plans and to make sure that we build our communities to be as State-resistant as possible. Chris Steyn (28:13.879)Thank you. That was Kallie Kriel of AfriForum speaking to BizNews. I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you. Kallie Kriel (28:22.008)Thank you, Chris.

Kallie Kriel: Rumours of an Afrikaner Armed Struggle are "ludicrous"!

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