Is Jacob Zuma the glue holding MK together, or has the party already outgrown him? In the first of his weekly conversations with Alec Hogg on BizNews, William Saunderson-Meyer, whose Jaundiced Eye column has run every week since 1993, said he didn't buy the common wisdom. He argued that MK had tapped a deep well of grievance against the ANC, that it stood to grow in the local elections, and that the ANC's road back to power may run through MK. He sized up Duduzane Zuma as heir apparent, compared the family's split to Romulus and Remus, and described Gayton McKenzie as a hyena of the political wilderness. Then he laid out one set of numbers he keeps coming back to, and why it should worry anyone counting on a weaker ANC..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Alec Hogg (00:02) Well, we are delighted that William Saunderson-Meyer, author of the Jaundiced Eye, has become part of the BizNews team. William has been writing his column for decades, and we'll get into that in just a moment. It's the longest-running political column in South Africa. Good reason for that. And he's going to be doing that for us on BizNews in future. And here on BizNews TV, we'll get together the day after the column has been published to have a chat about it and perhaps go a little broader. Whereas the column goes deep, in our conversation here we'll go broad.But William, welcome to BizNews. This is the first of our weekly conversations about your column. And it's on probably the most interesting part of the body politic right now, and that's saying something. But before we get there, I'd love for our community to know who they're reading. Where did you grow up, and how did you actually end up in journalism?William Saunderson-Meyer (01:12) Well, it's a long story, obviously, ancient as I am. I was born in Zambia, lived in Zambia, Australia, South Africa. My parents are South African and returned very quickly from Australia to South Africa. I lived in the UK, worked at the Financial Times and on various Fleet Street papers, and then returned to South Africa in '93, with the great things that were happening, with that moment of hope. For a South African journalist, where would one want to be but in South Africa when those things were beginning to unfold?So I returned then, and on my return I started the Jaundiced Eye column, which has appeared in various papers and has run non-stop since then, '93. So what, 33 years. Kind of a psychotherapy for me. Every week I can immerse myself in the muckiness of South African politics and come out cleansed at the end of the week.Alec Hogg (02:20) Why Jaundiced Eye? Is it a warning to readers or is it a confession?William Saunderson-Meyer (02:26) I think it's probably a summary. It describes, in a sense... I think a journalist needs to be slightly cynical. Not pessimistic, but cynical. Politicians are a devious and cunning breed, and one needs to view them through jaundiced eyes. So I guess in a way it's a reflection of my approach, and it's a reflection of how I think journalists shouldn't be too pally with politicians.Alec Hogg (05:44) William, as a financial journalist, I sometimes find what politicians say about and to each other to be really strange. You won't get away with this kind of conversation if you are a business person. But in politics it seems, well, par for the course to insult people who happen to be your political adversaries, and to get very personal about it as well. It makes it difficult for those of us outside to actually know what to believe.William Saunderson-Meyer (06:36) I think if you're a politician and have sensitive feelings, you're not going to survive very long. But it's true that the level of political discourse has just steadily slid downwards. I think that's partly because of social media. There are no gatekeepers anymore, and so wild allegations make news and you pick up the pieces afterwards. By the time the pieces are picked up and reassembled and the truth emerges, the story has moved on. So the damage is done. That is part of the problem.Alec Hogg (07:13) You know, I've often felt that a falsehood is bad, but a half-truth is even worse. Because it's almost like, well, there's a little bit of truth in it, so I can now use that and really impale the person that I want to have a go at. It's really awful.William Saunderson-Meyer (07:32) It's a sort of "there's no smoke without a fire" kind of response. People go, well, maybe it could be. And then of course, often the truth about what politicians do and say is even more surreal and disturbing than what one sees in public. So it's easy to believe bad things about them, because there's a history there. I mean, who would have thought that Jacob Zuma and his cronies could have diverted a trillion rand out of the state economy? And yet it happened.Alec Hogg (08:12) Well, that's your column this week, Jacob Zuma. He's been in the news a lot, this time because of his health. Who do we believe there? Because I think it was eNCA that said he'd been discharged from hospital, and then people close to him came back and said, no, he's still not well. Is the guy well? We don't know. In fact, at the time that you wrote the column, you said we're not sure what's going on at the moment.William Saunderson-Meyer (08:43) And it's not the first time that that's happened. That happened just before the 2024 general election. Not that he was hospitalised, but claims that he was on his last legs. There were suggestions at the time that this was a disinformation campaign originating within the ANC to damage Zuma, because the suggestion was that without Zuma alive and well and in fighting-fit health, MK would just disappear. Anyway, Zuma put in a fantastic electoral performance in 2024.And so this time around, it does seem that there's some truth in the rumours. The Common Sense, I think yesterday, suggested that he had had a very serious medical event, whatever that might mean, and he appears to still be in hospital. I think it would be wise for MK to play open cards. It doesn't help them particularly to have these swirling rumours around Zuma's health.Alec Hogg (09:56) Okay. Let's just move into a little bit more about yourself and what we can expect. Your politics: are you liberal, contrarian, something else?William Saunderson-Meyer (10:08) The meanings of labels have changed so much in recent years. I don't know what I would be. I guess I would say I was an old-style liberal, liberal in the British sense, not in the American sense. So a person who believes in individual freedoms, protection of human rights, but a market economy. Kind of roughly along those lines. But I'm not a slavish ideologue at all. I can see the flaws in our systems. But yes, that would probably be where I place myself, as a classic liberal.Alec Hogg (10:53) And you were close to the late R.W. Johnson.William Saunderson-Meyer (10:57) The great, inimitable, late R.W. Johnson. Yes, we were friends for many years. He was at Oxford, and I went to Oxford as a visiting journalism fellow and then to do a master's. So I met him there, and of course South Africans seek one another out. Johnson was incredibly involved in the whole anti-apartheid movement and the whole exile movement. He knew all the movers and shakers within the ANC. So we instantly formed a bond, although I think we very often disagreed vociferously about our interpretations of what was happening. And then, as it happened, R.W. came back to South Africa more or less at the same time that I did, so we picked up our friendship here.Alec Hogg (11:50) Which newsrooms shaped your thinking? You did mention you worked at the Financial Times. That's, for many journalists, the pinnacle of one's career.William Saunderson-Meyer (12:02) It was lovely to work at a newspaper where journalism is valued and is remunerated accordingly, where journalists are taken seriously and are expected to make a positive contribution, and do. But I would say I was most shaped as a young journalist by my years on the Sunday Tribune in Durban, under a fantastic editor, Ian Wyllie. A man who never sought plaudits and was never recognised for the brave role he played in the National [Party] government years, in publishing and fighting censorship and encouraging journalists.I mean, he and I also clashed quite often, but he gave me relatively free rein within certain constraints, and it was an incredibly positive experience. To work under a great boss happens so rarely, because one rarely has great admiration for the person who has control over your life.Alec Hogg (13:27) Well, moving on to the first column. You've gone straight for the biggest story in KwaZulu-Natal, where both of us are from. The Trib, by the way: I grew up on it as a little boy in Newcastle. I used to deliver those newspapers and keep one back for myself. It always had the best sport about our province at that point in time.But Zuma, dead or alive, he's still running the show. That's the intimation, I think, that people might draw from column number one on BizNews.William Saunderson-Meyer (14:05) I think what I'm trying to say about Zuma is this. Whether he is dead or alive... and I can almost not imagine the political firmament in South Africa without Zuma. He reminds me of one of those leathery tortoises that live for 200 years. He has an indestructible air about him. So the thought of him in extremis is a very sad one. Whether one likes what he's done or not, he has shaped our politics remarkably, when he was president, before he was president and after he's been president.So what I'm saying is that whether he is dead, or whether he dies in the immediate future, he will continue to shape South African politics. I don't buy the common view that MK is going to collapse without Jacob Zuma, that Jacob Zuma is all that holds it together. He's undoubtedly the towering and charismatic figure within MK, but he has mined a rich vein of grievance in the electorate towards the ANC.So unless MK rips itself apart in an unseemly and destructive leadership contest once Zuma goes, MK stands to grow in this coming local government election. It's very likely to get control of Durban council, which it already virtually... It would put it in a very strong position then to take control of the province. And it means that for any recovery to happen for the ANC, MK is going to be in that equation somewhere. It has to deal with MK.Alec Hogg (16:34) How would it?William Saunderson-Meyer (16:36) Well, one possibility is that they will try to put Humpty together again. That all the king's horses and all the king's men will try and pick up the pieces that have been [shattered]: MK under Ramaphosa's presidency, the EFF from previously, and somehow bring them back into the fold. I think there is quite a visceral emotional feeling in the ANC that this is necessary to do.And ironically, if Zuma goes, it will be easier to do. Because what has prevented a reunification happening is the enormous antipathy between Zuma and President Ramaphosa. So if Zuma goes, in a way, there's a possibility of a reconciliation there.Alec Hogg (17:48) Or I guess if Ramaphosa goes as well. And what do you make of Duduzane? He was very impressive at the business conference in the Drakensberg. He's got his father's charm, no question. He is definitely involved in where MK is going now, as the deputy leader. If Jacob Zuma were to live to an even riper old age, do you get the sense that Duduzane's star will keep rising?William Saunderson-Meyer (18:20) It would seem at this stage that Duduzane is the chosen successor in this dynastic party, which Zuma rules with an iron hand, much like a sort of medieval monarch, absolute right of kings. He appoints and he disappoints as he wishes. So it's clear that Duduzane is sitting at the right hand.I watched his speech at the business conference, and it's the first time I've really got a sense of him. And I agree with you, he was very impressive. He was very business-friendly. I think he charmed his audience. He has that Zuma ability, that warmth that people respond to. And I think that's been one of the strong aspects of Zuma's power: people like him. The reason that he unseated Mbeki so easily and so swiftly was that, despite Mbeki's technocratic abilities, nobody really particularly liked him. And here you have this chaotic, disorganised guy, Zuma, but everyone likes him, and the next thing we know, he's our president.So yes. But there are other members of the family who are also in senior positions in the party. [Duduzile], Duduzane's twin, has just left the party and is being sued. So there are intra-familial rifts taking place within MK, and who knows how they'll play out. The two twins: one is on the inside of the citadel, and the other one has been banished beyond the walls. It's a kind of Romulus and Remus tale from ancient Rome. There's also Edward, who I don't think is serious. He's part of the party, but he's not a serious player in the party.William Saunderson-Meyer (20:42) So it's difficult to imagine MK without some kind of Zuma connection. It's not only the charisma; the Zuma name carries a lot of weight. In many ways, when Zuma dies, he will become in a sense a political martyr. In fact, probably the last thing that the ANC wants is for Zuma to pop off at this moment, three weeks before a local government election. It can only benefit MK: the state funeral, the pomp and circumstance, the [plaudits] and accolades that will have to come from the ANC as well, from President Ramaphosa.So I think the family is a wild card in there. They need the family, but you also need good technocratic people who can make sense of the organisational chaos that MK is. It's not an efficient party. It's just cancelled its election launch because it seems to have run out of money. I didn't think political parties ran out of money. I mean, the ANC keeps running out of money, and then suddenly it finds another sofa stuffed with dollar bills, and out come the bakkies clad in ANC regalia, brand new, straight off the showroom floor. So I'm surprised that MK has run out of money, which may be another reason why it would be quite key to get together with the ANC again.Alec Hogg (22:25) Sure. Well, it's three weeks to the election, and I've no doubt that you're going to be providing us with fascinating insights in the next couple of weeks. But just looking at KZN right now and where we are: in a conversation that I had with Gayton McKenzie just over a week ago, he said he's looking to get a few percentage points in eThekwini to get MK over the line, over the 50% number, so that he can govern with them.Does that surprise you, that Gayton is siding with MK, when other politicians... we had Dean Macpherson saying, "I will never, never work with MK in KwaZulu-Natal." And the ANC seem to be a bit of a spent force in the province, but they too are not exactly warm towards this Zuma dynasty party.William Saunderson-Meyer (23:24) No, they're not, not at all. In fact, when MK tried to speak about some kind of [KZN] coalition with the ANC, they were brushed off very rudely by Fikile Mbalula.You know, Gayton McKenzie is a political scavenger. He's sort of a hyena of our political wilderness. He will gnaw on any bones that he can find and gain nourishment from them. He's a survivor. So I wouldn't be surprised at any deal that Gayton McKenzie does with any party. He's completely pragmatic; one might say opportunistic.So it is possible. MK was very, very close to a complete majority in the province, so it is really possible that it will be very close to having an absolute majority in the council. What matters is what happens to the ANC, if the ANC vote continues to decline. And with all the small parties, there's a lot of room for manoeuvre, to suborn or buy the cooperation of one-man bands and get them on your side. But it will be a coalition of some kind.I know we should be talking about local government, but when one thinks of MK and how the power balance sits between it and the ANC, and trying to put the egg together again, there's one depressing set of statistics that I come back to every time. And that is, if you take the ANC national vote, the MK national vote and the EFF national vote and add them all together, they are just two or three percentage points off the two-thirds majority that Mbeki achieved at the height of ANC rule.William Saunderson-Meyer (25:47) So there exists the potential. That is where the strongest potential is for the ANC to reinvent itself: by reabsorbing MK, or for MK to do a reverse takeover of the ANC, if they can get past those enormous personal antipathies that exist. Alec Hogg (26:11) It's a fascinating body politic that we have in South Africa, and no one better to guide us through it than William Saunderson-Meyer. He will be on BizNews TV every week, as mentioned before, going a little broader from the Jaundiced Eye column of that week, which you have to be a BizNews Premium member to read, by the way. So come on, sign up if you haven't done so yet. I'm Alec Hogg with BizNews Edge..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.