Listen here.In their latest BizNews chat, Chris Steyn and Political Commentator Solly Moeng cover the deepening mystery surrounding the apparent suicide in Paris of former Police Minister and ambassador Nathi Mthethwa; Patriotic Alliance (PA) leader Gayton McKenzie’s “nepotistic” appointments of Minister of Arts and Culture; the relationship between Tenderpreneurs Cat Matlala and Hungwani Maumela, the nephew by marriage of President Cyril Ramaphosa; the factionalised African National Congress (ANC) naming over forty candidates for mayors in eight metros. “What are we to do with all these people who play such crucial, toxic, dangerous roles for South Africa…Let us ignore these politicians who think that we are not one and show them we are..We should come together and take back this country.” In some good news, the South African Revenue Service (SARS) has intercepted a R167-million Cocaine shipment at OR Tambo. “They should also trace the masterminds…Of course they will assassinate, they will kill people, they will offer bribes, they will probably blackmail people. But we should find these people. We should be known as a country that says no - and that does something about it. For now, we are a country where everything goes. Everything goes. And it has got to stop at some point.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.408)Another grueling and gruesome week in South African politics with me is political commentator Solly Moeng. Welcome, Solly.Solly Moeng (00:11.961)Hello, Chris, lovely to see you and to the viewers out there.Chris Steyn (00:15.864)Thank you, Solly. You're welcome. Let's go internationally first with the deepening mystery surrounding the apparent suicide of former Police Minister and ambassador Nathi Mthethwa.Solly Moeng (00:30.492)Yeah, look, a lot of things are being said, claimed. Of course, on the South African side, the story seems unresolved because they... first of all, there's a claim that they were not invited to be part of the investigations into the causes of death. Secondly, they have not seen the final report. The French apparently have announced that the report has been concluded and everything points to a suicide which seems to be what it is.But in South Africa there is a lot of speculation and there would be a lot of speculation in South Africa, understandably so, because people disappeared: Gavin Woods died apparently, or apparently lives on an island somewhere, some people are saying, Nathi is also on some island. So people do all sorts of crazy things to escape justice. So there will be room for speculation in South Africa. People get hospitalised, they get shot or they shoot themselves…Maybe the French need to just come out clearly or maybe share the report. I don't see why the French would want to be playing sinister games and they have no reason to do that.These are South African stories. Issues were coming out of the Madlanga Commission and the link to past police ministers and he was a past police minister. We don't know if he took his own life because he saw this shadowing his way or whether somebody else decided to take him out because you know he would end up saying things he shouldn't say……there's a lot of speculation, but there is no indication that somebody was in there with him and pushed him out of that window. It's very clear that he fell out of that window; nobody can say otherwise but there's no indication that anybody else was with him and we're going to be asking questions forever.The French must simply come in and say it was suicide but I don't see them…Solly Moeng (02:32.498)…coming in to say, this is why this man killed himself or he would have been killed becauseChris Steyn (02:39.895)Meanwhile, a Patriotic Alliance leader Gayton McKenzie continues to attract controversy. He's been accused of nepotism by allegedly appointing people close to him or party members in key positions.Solly Moeng (02:52.688)Yeah, McKenzie, he's learning a lot from the ANC. Look, the ANC has had 32 years of putting their own people in all the key positions of State both inside South Africa and in our foreign missions abroad. So this guy has come in. It's not just one, apparently four, five, six, seven... The National Film and Video Foundation, National Library, SA Boxing, etc., etc. So he comes in to say, okay, look, we are in. I'm going to position my own people in. That's how you take control of stuff. And that's how the ANC over time has taken control of stuff. Quietly deploying its own people into key institutions. And McKenzie is a man full of himself. This man…he probably is the best gift to the world by God if God exists. But these things catch up with him. And the thing is, the South Africa conversation we should be having is having seen the ANC do certain things over time…,how do we ensure that if Solly comes in or McKenzie comes in or …comes in, they don't get to do these things that are toxic. Because we can't just rely on the goodwill or good health of individuals, especially in a country where we vote over form rather than substance. People come in there and they speak well in front of them, of microphones, they say all the big things and the Malemas of this world, the…of this world, the ideal Fadiel Adams of this world, they end up being law makers in a country that requires a lot more substance than just people coming in to play heroes and heroines. So we need to have a conversation in South Africa. What kind of qualifications do we need for people to get into those spaces? And I'm not just talking about academic qualifications. We tend to think it's all about academic. What kind of ethical grounding do we need? But also what kind of systems, checks and balances do we need to make sure that never, nobody ever, irrespective of what party they come from, gets to do to South Africa what has been done to it over the past 32 years.Chris Steyn (05:04.813)Now details are emerging of the relationship between Tenderpreneurs Cat Matlala, who is on trial and appearing before the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry, and Hungwani Maumela, who is not on trial, who is not appearing before the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry and whereabouts seem to be a mystery.Solly Moeng (05:29.956)Yeah, it's about time, I think it's about time. This man's name has been like that name that shall never be mentioned for far too long, you know. We know that he is related in one way or another with the...We know that Ramaphosa has denied knowing him. And then he was filmed apparently taking his scarecrow walk and suddenly this guy opened his gate. So there's a lot of money that went into this man's accounts. You know that all those cars that were purchased and properties that were confiscated and the links, more tragically, it's the link to the Tembisa Hospital looting that happened, Babita Deokaran was killed. About six or seven hit men were found. The mastermind behind all of that has not been found. And this man has never been called by the Madlanga Commission. He's never been arrested. Okay, they went to take stuff from him, but to what extent have they given him time to hide stuff? So it's important that South Africans get to know not only the hit men that ran us on the streets, but the masterminds behind what's going on in South Africa. So, Maumela, I really hope that he gets called to come now that his name is being mentioned at the Madlanga Commission. They cannot not call him. It would be like okay, What's going on here? And I'm also happy that Matlala finally got to be pushed by retired Judge Madlanga to say okay. Look, you're not going to keep stonewalling us with a blanket excuse not to testify. Let's take this question by question by question. What is the stance on this one? What stands on the next one? This stone walling, blanket stone walling must stop. I think it has come to an end. I hope he continues to spill the beans where he must…Now suddenly links with Msibi, the fellow who died, the taxi guy who died. Who were the Big Five of this so-called cartel?Solly Moeng (07:44.527)It's very clear that… there's one or two names that are still to come out. We need, South Africa deserves this, and there's got to be justice. There has to be a way for South Africans to be shown that nobody stands above their law, irrespective of whom they are related to.Chris Steyn (08:01.753)Meanwhile, the African National Congress has named over forty candidates for mayors in eight metros. Does that mean that there are so many factions, Solly, that they couldn't risk naming a single person as a candidate for mayor in a metro?Solly Moeng (08:20.336)The ANC has always been described as a broad church. I don't know what, I haven't had anyone use that expression anymore these days. We don't know what it is. Look, we know that it's always been factionalised and it's gotten more and more toxic in recent days. Some people say that between Ramaphosa and his possible successor, Mashatile, they don't really see eye to eye on many political stories. There's Fikile Mbalula now who's saying, okay, maybe we need people with postgraduate qualifications and then Mantashe saying well maybe they must have at least Matric; if they don't have Matric maybe they must they must commit to commit their Matric whether exams or qualifications in the next year, but it's not enough. I said earlier, we're not just looking for Matric qualifications. Of course, there's got to be basic education. There's no doubt about it. We have to agree on what is required there. But we also, the ANC, what the ANC should be promising, especially the ANC, is that it will not politically interfere because a lot of times, key, very highly educated people at many of the SOEs, Transnet, ESCOM, DENEL, all of them, SAA, qualified South Africans, and let me specify, plus qualified black South Africans, experts, people we want to look at, and so you see they can do it. What they had underestimated before coming into those positions is the level of toxicity that comes with political instructions. Okay, your political minister, look at what's happening in the PIC, for instance. Politicians hovering above people who know how to do their work, or they should at least, given their education and professional experience. But when your political master comes in to say, this tender must go to that one, not to that one, or you must sign this, or you must...Solly Moeng (10:16.136)…not let this happen. That's where it all goes wrong. So you can get all the PhDs and all the MBAs you want. If the political parties are not stopped from interfering with the normal governance of institutions and municipalities, we're going to keep having the same conversation over and over again.Chris Steyn (10:35.807)One department that certainly does not have a shortage of highly educated people is the South African Revenue Service. And they've just announced an impressive one hundred and sixty seven million rand cocaine bust at OR Tambo Airport.Solly Moeng (10:52.026)Yeah, look, I think it's known now that over the past number of years our criminal justice system has been...was literally taken over by the criminal network. A lot of things were allowed to happen. We don't know who's benefiting. We don't know who's enabling these things. This latest bust, it's good that they found them. But we don't know who would have been the person giving what's happening now. It's very hard to say, okay, it's linked to this one or that one. But the fact is it's been happening over time. We hope that they catch more of these people. But also, it shouldn't stop there, catching the runners, the girls and women. Sometimes they carry the drugs in their bellies. They should also trace the masterminds. Again, it's always the small guys who get caught. The big guys don't get caught…Somebody big must have been there to benefit. We need to get to those people because if we don't get to them with this one, as we haven't in the past, they will keep doing it over and over again because levels of impunity in these circles are massive. Of course they will assassinate, they will kill people, they will offer bribes, they will probably blackmail people. But we should find these people. We should be known as a country that says no and that does something about it. For now, we are a country where everything goes. Everything goes. And it has got to stop at some point.Chris Steyn (12:24.759)While you are on the lack of accountability and the lack of consequences, what else happened in the past week that you would like to rant about?Solly Moeng (12:34.522)Well, it's over the past five years, what really frustrates me is like, where are the masterminds? I mean, Babita Deokaran, as we mentioned here, where she was killed. Remember, Andre de Ruyter spoke about a highly-placed political mastermind over what was going on at Eskom, who was almost playing as an obstacle for certain investigations not to happen. He has never mentioned that person. So that person is still alive or not alive anymore, but that person is a politician, a highly-placed politician, and there many others. So what are we to do with all these people who play such crucial, toxic, dangerous roles for South Africa who never get arrested? Ten professionals or so have been assassinated in South Africa over the past five years…we have big names that we keep mentioning like Babita and of course we should not stop and others who have been killed but we don't talk about them a lot but all these things are linked.In the end, we arrest the guy who shoots, the hit man, where we can, but not the people who order them to do that. So we've got to think about this in a different way. How do we get people to talk? The same way Madlanga has to say, well, these doctors who keep issuing fake medical certificates to criminals or to criminal suspects, maybe there's a different way to do it so that we set examples to doctors who play, or to lawyers….They are being paid to protect small guys who shouldn't be having the money they have to hire such expensive senior councils. How are we going to come to a point in South Africa where we say, fine at this level, but we need to go higher to get the big names out there. We can't have the same thing happening over and over again and pretend to be surprised.Solly Moeng (14:43.366)…it's a reform of the way we think about things so that things don't happen again and we can't have the same people in power determining how the changes happen. Civil society groups, experts outside of government, must come together to say, enough is enough, this is how we're going to do this thing.Chris Steyn (15:01.837)I think by now many people have lost whatever faith they might have had in political parties. So maybe we will see a stronger civic movement arising.Solly Moeng (15:09.7)Yeah.Solly Moeng (15:14.736)Yeah, we should. I think our biggest weakness is that we're divided. You know, our biggest problem is that we are divided. South Africans, there's a lot more that brings us together across race, across religion, across gender than things that divide us. Let us ignore these politicians who think that we are not one and show them we are one. Because the bulk of South Africans are neither in the left nor in the right. They're in the center. They are white, they are Coloured, they're Indian, they're gay, lesbian, Muslim, Jewish and all that. We should come together and take back this country. That's what we should be doing.Chris Steyn (15:49.729)Thank you, that was political commentator, Sully Mueng. Speaking to Business, I'm Christine. Thank you, Sully.Solly Moeng (15:57.158)Thank you, Chris.