NdB Sunday Show - Andy Mashaile: “Hurricane” Mkhwanazi: heralding a new era of law and order in SA

In the latest edition of the NDB Sunday Show, Chris Steyn is joined by Security Strategist and retired Interpol Ambassador Andy Mashaile. He reveals how General Nhlanhla “Hurricane” Mkhwanazi had warned politicians in a speech at a Parliamentary dinner in 2011 already that he was coming for the corrupt. “And when I look back at what he meant on that day in Parliament, the Minister of Police was Nathi Mthethwa. I am sure also when they look back, they realise that he really meant what he was saying. Him having taken on the Minister didn't start on the 6th of July…He did warn politicians that when you do wrong things, I will come after you because I am a police officer.” Mashaile can still recall the shocked silence that followed. “Now referring to the politicians, the clinking sound (of knives and forks on plates) died instantly.” Mashaile does an in-depth performance appraisal on General Mkhwanazi, and lists all the objectives that the General has achieved since his Press Conference. Mashaile outlines the reasons why he would like to see General Mkhwanazi as National Police Commissioner. “I will tell the President… This is the man that the country needs. This is the man who has what it takes.” He predicts that should the general be appointed to the top job, there would be an exodus of corrupt cops. “…people are going to sweat or people are going to take earlier retirement packages”. Mashaile also comments on the conduct of the various role players in the police and political capture saga, including that of forensic investigator Paul O’Sullivan..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:02.005)Welcome to the NDB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn and former Interpol Ambassador and security expert, Mr. Andy Mashaile. Welcome, Sir.Andy Mashaile (00:15.224)Good morning to you, Chrissie and to the viewers of this great show.Chris Steyn (00:20.811)Sir, after all the evidence that we have heard at the Madlanga Commission and Parliament's Ad Hoc committee, may I please take you back to the very beginning to the man who started it all, the KZN Provincial Police Commissioner, General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi. How do you feel now about the revelations he made that day when he called the press conference?Andy Mashaile (00:49.581)And as much as a lot of people who didn't understand what he was doing were criticising him, I looked back and said, is there substance in what this man is talking about? And I sat in front of my TV and asked myself, is there substance in what you are saying, Meneer? And I waited for him to have his day before the Madlanga Commission and before the Ad Hoc Committee. And I was not surprised, Chrissie. And he was able to substantiate the little that he dished out on that Sunday of pain and Sunday of stress or Sunday of depression for many of those that came up against him. And fast forward to today, when I look back, I realised that we needed Hurricane Mkhwanazi to destroy the bastions of ignorance and organised crime and organised syndicates and people who have immersed themselves in and on the Criminal Justice Cluster, particularly law enforcement agencies and the NPA. I am yet to verify, from an analysis and a data analytic, the deep involvement of the judiciary. I am expecting that Hurricane Mkhwanazi and the investigators would yield, as they have shown us so far, the investigators to yield more so that we can correct the three elements of the Criminal Justice Cluster. Law enforcement, which is policing, and the NPA, which is processadorial, and the judicial system.Andy Mashaile (14:52.553)Yes, ma'am. I was just saying, I have worked with Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi. Like he was in the head office of SAPS. And I was Chairperson of the Houghton Provincial Community Police Board and ultimately became the Spokesperson for the National Community Police Board. I am a strategist, a security strategist by profession and by practice. We were writing the Community Policing Strategy for the Police at 2014, 2015, 2019 with the former National Commissioner.… And before that, I have spent a lot of time at head office ensuring that there is cooperation between the police at national level and the communities at national level. We attended a Budget Vote speech in Parliament. And, Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi was the Acting National Commissioner. Chrissie, we were having, after the Budget Vote, we were having dinner there, helping ourselves. The clinking sounds of the knives and the forks on the plate. And obviously, as the Acting National Commissioner, he gave a short speech, or he gave a speech in support of SAPS having been granted that X amount of money for the operations of SAPS. And he was standing there in his short-sleeved shirt, fully pumped up like you have seen him. And he said, I'm a police officer in the street. I will arrest any of you who commit crime. Now referring to the politicians, the clinking sound died instantly. All of us looked up to him. I got such a fright, Chrissie, and I was thinking, yoh this man is brave. How can he say this to ministers who are here and the politicians? And fast forward, a few months later, two if not three months, he was removed as the National Commissioner and many other things went down. And thereafter, he was sent home for about a year or something like that.Andy Mashaile (05:50.244)…and I had never had communication with him since that time in Parliament after the Budget Vote speech. And when I look back, Chrissie, at what he meant on that day I Parliament, the Minister of Police was Nathi Mthetwa. I am sure also when they look back, they realise that he really meant what he was saying. Him having taken on the Minister didn't start on the 6th of July and the investigation. He did warn politicians that when you do wrong things, I will come after you because I am a police officer.Chris Steyn (06:30.538)Sir, what inspires the General to be so brave?Andy Mashaile (06:36.575)If you have a man who has gone overseas to extract South African officials and also help the President of Haiti from a safety point of view…in the middle of the coup, the South African government says Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, you are the man who can lead the operation into Haiti, bring our leaders, and pleasen bring President Aristide for his own safety. And he goes there in the middle of the dragon breathing fire in on Haiti, those who were executing a coup. And he goes into Haiti and he comes out having hot extracted President Aristide and our own government officials.And I think I don't need any motivation to say this man and what he's doing now from the Press Conference, this man has a little thing that is inspiring him. I look back and say, this is the man who in my view, I think should be commanding law enforcement forces on the ground. He should be the head of law enforcement agency in South Africa, meaning the SAPD, the South African Police Department that is rendering law enforcement services to our people. I think honesty, integrity, the welfare of others, the discipline that he was brought up. You can tell that this man was brought up by the parents who were very strict. And I can tell, you can tell when you talk, this is a man who comes from an upright background. This is not a man who hunts power, who chases power. You and I can tell, you and I can testify from what we have read in the social media around the country. This is a man who behaves in such a way and manner that that power chases him, that all the good things chases him.Andy Mashaile (08:59.838)If he is a Christian you would say this is the man who understands Matthew 6.33. Look for Him and his Kingdom and all others will be looking for you. This is a man who is a man of upright standing, who all other things follow him. I don't want to say he is a saint, no. He is a man like me who has his weaknesses. I look at the 90% of the goodwill in the man and I will judge you based on your 90%, not on your 10%.Chris Steyn (09:36.49)Now, Sir, the General has huge public support. People are calling for him to be the next National Police Commissioner. They even want a public holiday named in his honour. If you could advise the President to appoint him as the National Commissioner, would you do that? Is he fit?Andy Mashaile (09:58.782)From that day in 2011 in Parliament when he was the Acting National Commissioner after coming out straight to say I am a police officer any of you who commit crime must know that I'm not wearing this uniform as a mannequin in one of those shops that we used to go to, you and I Chrissie, Sales House, I’m not a mannequin wearing uniform wearing from the shop of Sales House, I am a police officer; when you commit crime I will come after you, I was inspired, let me tell you. I said, this is the man who can make friends with me. This is the man that I need as a friend. And I will tell the President, just using that example to say, this is the man that the country needs. This is the man who has what it takes. For the fact that on the 6th of July, many years down the line, the man stood up and said, I, it's not going to go on. What I'm seeing here should not go on. And what have we unearthed from his appearances, we saw the Madlanga Commission coming up to scratch. We saw the Ad Hoc Committee being established. We saw him, how he delivered his evidence at the Madlanga Commission as well as the Ad Hoc Committee. And I would say, Mr. President, you challenged the General to bring substance before you. He has delivered, among other things, that he has an unearthed would be...the confiscations of cars belonging to Mr. Maumela. And we now see Mr. Cat Matala being in prison. And I'm sure in the next few days on Wednesday, we will listen to Mr. Matala unpack some substance, some meat to the bones when the Ad Hoc Committee visits him in Pretoria.And it is also important that Mr. President, when you are seated there, you consider that those who need morale, those clean police officers, those who are inspired to do what is correct would need a person like Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi.Am I saying General Masemola is not fit? No, that's not what I'm saying. I am saying for the fact that you have a….Andy Mashaile (12:23.655)…five-year contract to look at a man who would understand and introduce new systems, systems that are effective and efficient. I am looking at the Efficiency Chart performance of the SAPS driven by Genera Mkhwanazi only from the 6th of July. I am sure I am happy. Those who understand policing and experts out there would say yes, the Efficiency Chart and has gone up on a, has gone on an upward trajectory, Chris. From a cost-benefit analysis, the benefit is showing to be hugely piled up against the cost that we might be incurring as government from funding him, as we are told that people have a problem with the nature of the budget that was given to the PKTT as well as the vehicles I would do the same.Andy Mashaile (14:52.553)…..the president would not be incurring an unnecessary cost when he appoints General Mkhwanazi. This performance of General Mkhwanazi just after the July press conference, we have heard what the witnesses have said. The recordings of Mr. Matala, listening to Brown Mogotsi banging his head against the wall….even Justice Madlanga coming out to challenge Mogotsi when it comes to respecting oath, which is what we need. You respect oath so that the rule of law should be maintained. So these are the offshoots of what General Mkhwanazi has said, and by going to the hornet’s nest and and stirring the hornets and the hornets are on to the wrong people and we are seeing it in the Ad Hoc committee and in the Madlanga Commission.Chris Steyn (16:05.088)Now, acting Police Minister Feroz Cachalia, has repeatedly criticized the General for the way he went about it, but he hasn't said what else he should have done, how else he should have handled it, considering he had already exhausted all other avenues.Andy Mashaile (16:23.21)I will not blame the minister. It is his right, it is his space for him to defend his department when one of the members of that department goes against the conduct, the expected norm. I have great respect for Feroz Cachalia. He is my former MEC in the housing of safety and security while I was still...a young gentleman and being a member of the Community Policing Forum, leading up to me and him working on the National Anti-Corruption Advisory Council. And by the way, Chris, I'm a counselor from the Gauteng Ethics Advisory Council in advising primarily Lesufi on Ethics and Anti-Corruption. So I have had a long relationship with Feroz Cachalia.I would have done the same thing that Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi has done. And this is not in any way or manner aimed at disrespecting the Acting Minister. We will disagree with the minister when we think that the results that Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi has put on the table, given what has come out of the Madlanga Commission and in the Ad Hoc Committee is assessed and weighed. I am definitely sure that if you and I were to sit with the acting Minister of Police and say, let us look at the results before the July 6 press conference and post the July 6 conference in terms of the arrest of Mr. KT Molefe, in terms of the shenanigans that we have picked up from the JMPD, and also realising that there was murder in on what Brigadier Mkhwanazi and his rogue team have been unleashing on the people of Ekhuruleni and listening to the evidence of the Head of Communications.… All these came to light because General Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi chose to go unconventional.Andy Mashaile (18:46.409)I have respect for General Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi because myself, I am a man who is unconventional. So I would understand exactly that this man does not only play chess, he is good at playing chess, that is Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi. And for your information, Chris, I have challenged General Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi to play about 10 games of chess. He indicated to me that, Yes, he does play chess. So I have challenged him some time back to say, I would like to play 10 games of chess. Let's see your moves. Let's learn from your moves. Let's also share what we know. I have also learned that he's also a disciple of Sun Tzu, the author of the Art of War, and the book that was written 2,500 years ago. When you understand what strategy is about and you have read the Art of War, you can see General Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi’s move. Unfortunately, the ones who are talking against him and are making a whole lot of allegations against him and many other things, cannot be able to understand or to comprehend how is it that he is winning at every turn, at every move. Look, he wanted the Minister out of the way. The Minister is out of the way. And, Chrissie, I can tell you.Andy Mashaile (20:14.636)…the minister is definitely not coming back as the Minister of Police. The President cannot afford to have the negative publicity that goes out there. I think one of the reasons why he has decided to step aside the minister himself, as we heard from the SG of the organisation, the ANC, when he would go into the house campaigning, people don't see you as a member of the ANC, they will be seeing you as the Minister of Police who has a cloud hanging over his head. So that would be negative publicity, and that would take away some points in the campaign of the coming local government elections. So long story short, or as I close this response, the Minister, Acting Minister, Professor Cachalia…Andy Mashaile (21:12.456)…have his right to go that way. But the tide is up against the Minister in terms of those people who really want to have General Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi as the National Commissioner. And by the way, I understand why people would want General Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi up there. Do I want General Nhlanlha Mkhwanazi to be the National Commissioner? Based on his performance, I would definitely say yes. I want people who understand that we want result. We want consequences management and consequences management here would be informed by the objectives that we have set and what are those objectives? Crime prevention, crime combating and crime detecting and most importantly, arrest and prosecution of those who commit crimes.Chris Steyn (22:03.936)Now, if he became the National Commissioner of Police, would you expect a big exodus of police officers linked to crime cartels?Andy Mashaile (22:13.703)Definitely. I know for a fact that when you have a person like Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, those who are of ill will will by themselves, one, walk away. Two, they will coalesce themselves into a unit that would be fighting against you - and knowing Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, having seen that he is a strategist from his simple moves, I'm definitely sure that none would want to join alliances in the organisation to topple General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi.Let me cite an example. I worked with General Mzwandile Petros, who was the Provincial Commissioner of SAPS from the 2010s up to 2013. Mzwandile Petros would push the major generals and the deputy provincial commissioner to yield results. He would push them in the Provincial Crime Combating Forum. We would sit in that hall at Parktown and he would be phoning the constables in the 22 policing precincts called clusters and the constables would not know who is this person calling. He would pretend to be a constable himself and say how is your Station Commander performing? I am in a van now I want to find out and the other those constables who think that they talk to other constables and say hey our Station Commissioner is a problem and by then that Station Commissioner is speaking with us in that Provincial Crime Combating Forum.Andy Mashaile (24:12.198)…and 142 police stations by then. And he would say, what is he doing? And those police officers, hey man, this guy's frustrating us. The cars are not on time. And from there he would say, hey, thank you, man. You have relieved me of the problem that I was experiencing and put the phone down and look in the eyes of the Station Commander. I saw a man sweating. You see a man taking off his cap wiping off the sweat and general Petros will say explain that to me - and I know for the fact that many of them had sleepless nights…So, when you have a person like Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, I foresee based on the experience that I have with a person with almost the same personality….I’m definitely sure people are going to sweat or people are going to take earlier retirement packages.And those that are coming as aspirants to being divisional commissioners, being deputy national commissioners, I can tell you, many of them are going to be on the straight and narrow. So I know for a fact that a lot of people are going to feel uncomfortable and they're going to leave.Chris Steyn (25:33.856)What about suspended Deputy National Commissioner Shadrack Sibiya, General Sibiya, do you think he would stay?Andy Mashaile (25:41.849)I think the relationship is irretrievably broken down between General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi and the Deputy National Commissioner. Also, the relationship is irretrievably broken down between the current National Commissioner and the Deputy National Commissioner. I don't think General Sibiya and General Masemola, whatever the outcomes of these two commissions ot the court processes. Let's assume that my brother Shadrack Sibiya wins in court and goes back to work and he has to sit in a meeting with General Masemola. I don't think that relationship will make him comfortable and or will make the National Commissioner comfortable. Now fast forward to your question again. I don't think those two gentlemen can sit in the same room after the allegations, after many things, after we have learned from witness A, B, and C in the SAPS space, let alone witness D from the EMPD who spoke about murder involved in all of these shenanigans. I don't think General Sibiya will stay.Chris Steyn (27:09.504)Now somebody who has been very outspoken against the general is forensic investigator Paul O'Sullivan. What do you think is his agenda, Sir?Andy Mashaile (27:24.293)Mr. Paul O’Sullivan operates from a limited sphere of information and knowledge in the matters of the South African Police Services. I am referring specifically here. There is a big difference being in the organisation like Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, having the ability to establish teams that would investigate. In this instance, leading the PKTT - and the difference between a man like Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, who has first-hand information and a man like Paul O'Sullivan who has second-hand information who gets fed information by sources inside the organisation. Do I want to say dubious sources or do I want to say respectable sources with integrity? I don't want to say that, but I would be forced to say that given the interjection or the interference that we have seen from Mr. Paul O’Sullivan in police operations.I will congratulate him when he has an unearthed wrongdoing and wrong behaviour that has led to the arrest, prosecution, well as incarceration of individuals who he has identified as criminals. But up to so far, I don't know of any person who was identified by Mr. Paul O'Sullivan that has led to a huge number of criminals being investigated now. I only know that he went guns blazing against the late Jackie Selebi. And he successfully dethroned for the want of a better word General Jackie Selebi. And I congratulate him for identifying crime in that area, crime in that space. I would want to say he has what it takes to do good. And I would actually….Andy Mashaile (29:51.808)…advise him to join forces with General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, in advising General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, and targeting those who are alleged to have committed crimes in the countries, in outlying, in the neighbouring countries, those people who are importing drugs from Nampula in Mozambique, those people who are working hand in glove with human traffickers from other parts of our Continent. I am definitely sure that Paul O’Sullivan can be put to good use by government in the investigations of drug dealing and all these other networks. I respect him for what he can do. I would urge him once again to join forces with Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi. I am expecting him to see the good in Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi as opposed to those who are pointing fingers at Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi. And those individuals have actually brought little substance to the table as compared to Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi.Chris Steyn (31:14.25)Now, Sir, I don't know the end game of the general, where he is going with all this. Are you confident that he will succeed in whatever he's planning?Andy Mashaile (31:29.89)Let us review his performance. Let's do a performance appraisal, you and I now. The minister being suspended, he set a target that this minister must not be in the space because he is interfering in police operations. And we have seen the president suspending the minister. That's objective number one that he has set. He has achieved it successfully. So number two. He wanted the president's organisation, the ANC, to speak to the Step-Aside Rule in terms of the Integrity Commission. And the Integrity Commission successfully having listened to the Secretary General saying the minister has voluntarily stepped aside. That was objective number two that Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi has successfully achieved as a result of the allegations and the evidence that has been put forward. Objective number three, he wanted Mr. Cat Matala to be quizzed, to be questioned on the matters that we have seen, the cartel movement and the cartel's criminal activities and the illicit gains that...those who are associated with Mr. Matala have benefited. And we have seen that translate into the Special Investigations Unit, unearthing crime worth two billion rand from the Tembisa Hospital. And that's point number three in his performance. By the way, on a scale of 10, that's 10 out of 10. We have seen the recovery or the confiscation of the assets of Mr. Hangwani Maumela who's at the top of the Tembisa Hospital shenanigans.We have seen General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi setting up a team that would be, in the language that you and I can use, in the language that would provide evidence. Credible evidence.Andy Mashaile (33:53.473)We have listened to the investigators and turned into witness A, B, C, and D, and they were able to extract a recording, extract a confession, be it as it may or as you wish. And we have had Mr. Cat Matlala on those recordings talking about a number of other things. We have...Number five, we have seen General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi being able to put evidence that speaks to the SMSes or the WhatsApp messages that were exchanged between Mr. Brown Mogotsi and Mr. Matlala. And we have seen Mr. Mogots this week.… And we have seen Mr. Mogotsi speak to the issue of the SMS, confusing himself, not being able to explain, telling us many other things that came into the picture. And we have seen the commission doubting Mr. Mogotsi, which is point number six. Point number seven. Excuse me. We have seen Cedric Nkabinde trip over himself being chased out of the Ad Hoc Committee. And most importantly, coming back to confess that yes, he knows who Mr. Mogotsi is. And he also confessed that the Minister knew Mr. Brown Mogotsi for some time, and that’s working against the minister, given his … appearance, that he doesn't know who this Brown Mogotsi is. And that is also 10 out of 10. And number eight, we have seen Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi raise the issue of Ekuhurleni Metropolitan Police Department and the scandal of the Blue Light and him having mentioned a specific person known as Julius Mkhwanazi, and you and I can tell now that he mentioned that name so that that man must be investigated and suspended - and yes,Andy Mashaile (36:17.088)…Brigadier Mkhwanazi was suspended, which is point number nine, 10 out of 10. And lastly, we have seen the shenanigans that were committed at the EMPD, leading to the murder of an individual and the names of your Brakpan police stations coming into play and a suspended person there being the Head of Communications for responding to… questions from Mr Jeff Wicks and having asked her one question that led to the unraveling on many of these things. General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi indicated that some of the generals are working hand in glove with the rogue police officers, with rogue leadership. We have listened to that being clearly spelled out by Cedric Nkabinde when he said there was a journalist in one of the meetings where Mr. Paul O'Sullivan was seeking to dethrone or to block General Phahlane and General Mukiba from becoming national commissioner. 10 out of 10, General Mkhwanazi was able to register those successes. So if you and I, Chrissie, were to be principals or teachers of General Mkhwanazi in a … class. We would say he has passed with flying colours, a distinction. So long story short, General Mkhwanazi has been very, very successful. I am waiting to see how members of the Ad Hoc Committee tear Mr. Paul O'Sullivan apart with questions given his involvement as…Andy Mashaile (38:11.038)…alleged in the leadership of gangs that were operating against Phahlane and against Mukiba. And I should be understood correctly here. If Phalane committed a crime, fine, no problem. If Phahlane committed a crime, when I say fine, no problem, I'm saying he should be arrested and prosecuted for that.But no man has got the right to say, Phahlane must be blocked and they use satanic ways to block an individual or evil ways to block an individual from applying to become the national commissioner. Do things in a proper way and in a proper light. And I can tell when Mr. Paul O'Sullivan goes to the Ad Hoc Committee, sparks are going to fly there. Sparks are going to fly.And I'm waiting for Mr. Sullivan to take that opportunity to go to the Ad Hoc Committee and explain his role in…organisations or groupings that would be used against people, wrongly or rightly so, against people who would need an opportunity like anyone else. So I think… This is also a feather in Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi. That would be a cum laude for want of a better word if he was writing his assignment and was writing his thesis.Chris Steyn (39:56.576)Now, Sir, let's look at Post-Madlanga Commission. Does all this mean that we can look forward to a cleaner, more effective, more efficient justice system?Andy Mashaile (40:13.381)He will definitely, he will definitely Chris, he will definitely would have led to a situation, Chris, that leads to a better law enforcement agency and as well as a criminal justice system.Andy Mashaile (41:01.949)I am definitely sure, Chrissy, that the next week or the time post-Madlanga would be an era where we are in a position to see and find law enforcement or the criminal justice cluster that is decent, that will be able to do the job that we want.Chris Steyn (41:27.392)Thank you, Sir. That was former Interpol ambassador and Security Expert, Mr. Andy Mashaile speaking to BizNews. I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Sir.

NdB Sunday Show - Andy Mashaile: “Hurricane” Mkhwanazi: heralding a new era of law and order in SA

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