The NdB Sunday Show: Dr Michael Louis - Witness D assassinated amid plot to oust Cyril…

In the latest edition of the NdB Sunday Show, Chris Steyn hosts Dr. Michael Louis, the Chairman of the Independent Candidates Association and close friend of the late Neil De Beer. They talk about the shock assassination of Witness D, Marius “Vlam” van der Merwe, who had delivered such damning evidence at the Madlanga Commission - and who was also on a mission to expose State officials involved in illegal mining; the plot to oust President Cyril Ramaphosa, the presidential prospects of his deputy Paul Mashatile; the possibility of an outsider as future president; Democratic Alliance (DA) leader John Steenhuisen’s leadership woes; the state of the Government of National Unity (GNU); US-SA relations after the G20, and the battle for electoral reform. Dr Louis also shares what he believes the late Neil de Beer would have had to say about another brutal week in South African life..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.944)Welcome to the NDB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn, and today, Dr. Michael Louis, the chairman of the Independent Candidates Association and of course, a very close friend of the late Neil De Beer. Welcome, Michael.Michael Louis (00:19.288)Well, good morning, Chris. Great to be with you.Chris Steyn (00:22.532)Thank you. Off to a very tragic start. The assassination of Witness D, Marius “Vlam” van der Merwe who delivered such damning evidence at the Madlanga Commission and who was also on a mission to expose state officials involved in illegal mining, shot by an AK-47 wielding hitman in front of his family. How brazen can it get, Michael?Michael Louis (00:57.634)Look, it's really shocking news. I was really shocked yesterday to hear the news. And you know, there are really some unsung heroes in our country and we are living maybe some see it as very bad times, but we need to start exposing the rot. And so really our condolences to his family. And it just also shows you, I think this weekend, the commission has got some very, very big decisions to make because whilst there is this whole notion about public interest, you cannot have public interest vis-à-vis the right to life. And I think that whilst it is the right for citizens to know what's going on, I do not believe that to have it all open and not protect the lives of people is now what is conducive. And so...Whilst I believe public interest is important, I believe the commission must now seriously consider that all reports are in camera and that the lives of these whistleblowers are really protected. And so, I mean, that just shows you that here was a man that was in the Ekurhuleni Police Force for a number of years, 10 years, then he went to private practice and started really coming out with some very, very important information, especially the information about burying the body and implicated Julius Mkhwanazi…really shows you that there is some really serious things. I don't know if the viewers know that Julius Mkhwanazi was even nominated as the Regional Head of of Gauteng in the month of November. He isn't there anymore. But if this is the type of leaders that our political parties are having to represent us because we also know that the top cop of the Ekurhulne municipality was also very, very linked to Matlala, the controversial person that won the Tembisa tender. And he even said in his evidence, which I actually personally watched, where he said,…Michael Louis (03:15.618)…that he even prayed that Matlala will get that tender because Matlala promised him that he will have going to a good retirement. So, Chris, really interesting times and something that is really horrid and a very big week waits to see what the real plot is behind all of this.Chris Steyn (03:33.796)And once again, proof that there are those who are prepared to die to tell the truth and those who are prepared to kill them, to stop them. He knew he was going to die and he even predicted it, Michael. So for those who have been asking, where is the evidence? Maybe have a look at this. Surely it tells you that there are guilty ones out there who will stop at nothing…Chris Steyn (04:03.502)…to protect their power and their loot. Now onto President Cyril Ramaphosa. There are plots or a plot to get rid of him. Michael, how difficult or how easy would it be to oust him before the end of his term?Michael Louis (04:23.074)No, it's going to be absolutely impossible, Chris. And the viewers can definitely prepare themselves for a year of factional battles before the local government elections because it's all very normal and very sad that that's the nature of the beast of politics. Factionalism will go and plant seeds that are really unreal and will speed wobble a lot of people that aren't informed. But my duty really is to be able to inform viewers is that it's impossible to oust him. Section 25 of the Constitution of the ANC says that only the National Disciplinary Committee can ask any political office bearer because they've gone against policy, are a threat against the unity of the party, corruption, and all those things that we do know. And there needs to be a formal complaint before the National Disciplinary Committee so that they can view and take a rule and then obviously the incumbent can then appeal it as well. And we know that that isn't before the National Disciplinary Committee. So it's absolutely impossible that it will happen. But there are two very critical issues that I would like to raise around about this issue. The first one is that the time has come that we cannot allow when there is factional battles in a political party, and especially with the ANC that has nominated the president, that that can destabilise a whole country. And that's why I'm a very strong proponent that time has come to directly nominate our president. It can only happen by a constitutional change, but I believe that that will stabilise a country because we cannot allow ourselves to be destabilised because of internal factions of a political party. Then the second thing is that I think we must watch very, very closely, even although the National Committee is sitting this week, but the most important election is the national election that's going to take place in 2027 to nominate the new leader for the ANC. Now why that's important, because we know that Cyril is not going to put up his hand or he can't put up his hand for another term.Michael Louis (06:46.712)So whoever the incumbent president is, precedent is within the ambit of the ANC that the president of a political party or the ANC will be the president of the country, which means that from 2027 to our next elections, 2029, it's going to be very, very interesting times because we've got a coalition government.And say, for instance, the faction of Paul Mashatile wins to win the presidency. I give it, I'll put all my money on it that the coalition government will at the moment, the GNU, will not support Paul Mashatile. And at the end of the day, we've got a parliamentary presidential system or parliamentary system where parliament nominates the president. So whoever the political party nominates doesn't mean that that's going to be the president and the coalition government of the GNU will not nominate and support Paul Mashatile. So it's going to be very interesting times. And the way I see it and that it could happen is that from the years 2027 to 2029, we could have a Multi-Party government where an outsider comes as president to stabilise the country because I do not see any of the current leaders that are there at the moment of political parties becoming the president of the country, nor do I see any of them voting for each other to become president. So I think it's two very interesting things for us to watch in the coming couple number of years, Chris.Chris Steyn (08:32.312)Michael, do you have your bets on a particular outsider?Michael Louis (08:37.142)I haven't actually, you know, I really, what I do know is that people don't like Cyril Ramaphosa. And I do believe that for the moment, he's still the best man for the job. I can't see anybody replacing him really that has got his experience and things, but I've also in my experience now: come the time, come the man. And I believe there's definitely somebody that will stand up and get the vision and the dreams and the hopes of our nation again.Chris Steyn (09:07.748)So are you saying that the presidential coup plotters allegedly in cahoots with former president Jacob Zuma are wasting their time?Michael Louis (09:18.08)For definite this. I'll put all my money on that. It's a what we would term a foefie. It's not going to happen and it can't happen. So all the speculation is absolutely dead in the water from the start.Chris Steyn (09:34.916)Where do you see the South African government and the country now after the G20, Michael, and the position of the GNU in particular?Michael Louis (09:58.338)…think we were very blessed and honored to host the GNU, to host the G20. And I think that the reports of what happened there is absolutely outstanding. And I think that they did come to a resolve of a of an agreement, is outstanding. But I'm very much a proponent of substance over all. You know, that whilst we've got the agreement, how much of it is going to be implemented. I think that's where I really would love to watch. There were huge capital injection promises made for South Africa. In particular, I'm just thinking of the Middle East that wanted to give a couple of billion for AI and a number of other promises were there. So it will be very interesting. And I do believe that the result of what the president, when he...at that meeting with us as South Africans, said, everybody was impressed with the people. Well, we know that we've got the most outstanding people, the most outstanding country, but that's not what we're wanting to hear. We're wanting to see us move forward. The second notion about the GNU, about the G20, which I think is really interesting. I attended a function of business leaders and Christo Wiese was one of the speakers. And Christo said a very interesting, made a very interesting comment where he says, you need to know your place, you know? And so that really stuck with me that I think even although there is this feud with the USA, it is very sad, very disappointing. And there's a lot of information there. But I think South Africa needs to know their place. And we cannot alienate one of the largest economies in the world. And so as a result, they're trying their diplomacy, but I don't really think it's working. But we must know our place and take it up properly. I just by chance yesterday read Marco Rubio's report of why we haven't been invited to the G20 next year that's going to be hosted by the USA. And everybody talks about that it's about genocide, but it's not only about the genocide.Michael Louis (12:19.27)We know that there's a whole lot of issues there. Theological approaches with Iran, for instance, the JCI, and a whole lot of other things. Americans are well informed. And I think that the whole policy against the BEE is important. And then most importantly, that for some unknown reason, I think when America talks about the Afrikaner, they talk about white South Africans. And that's become more and more in my spirit. Let me put it that when they refer to the Afrikaner, they're talking to the white South African that they've been prejudiced. And so very interesting times. I think we're going to have to ride it out during the Trump reign. But I don't think it's all wasted energy by America. I think that there's a lot of constructive comments. And we as South Africans need to hear it as hard as what it is and see what we're going to do with the information.Chris Steyn (13:23.832)President Cyril Ramaphosa is not the only political leader some people would like to get rid of. There is also John Steenhuisen, the leader of the Democratic Alliance. Some people feel his performance has been lamentable and the party has lost a great deal of credibility. How do you see that going forward playing out, Michael?Michael Louis (13:44.335)Well, look, they've got the elective conference next year. And, you know, when it comes to leadership of a party, it's again all factionalism, you know. And so it's interesting that I think that that John has has made some strides with the DA. There's definitely been growth with the DA, but there's a lot of reasons for that. But I believe that, unfortunately, John Steenhuisen won't pass the muster of the next election as leader for a lot of reasons. He denies a lot of the allegations against him. But I am not a person that really wants to get politically involved and talk about the person or the character as much as what I believe that we need a strong opposition. We need good leadership. And right now in the DA, unfortunately, I also don't see a natural leader coming up. I think the only person that could be there is our Mayor Geordon Hill-Lewis. But I think he's well suited for the premiership. I do know that Alan Winde is not going to make himself available for premier at the next election. And I think to go up the ranks from mayor to premier to president, possible president, is the more natural route. So that's how it's going to play out, I think. And very interesting times. But I think the GNU is going to be safe until the 2027 elections of the ANC. I don't think anything, let's all pray that it is safe that we can have a consistent government until 2027 when the ANC nominates their new president.Chris Steyn (15:27.758)Just as in the case of President Cyril Ramaphosa, there is talk of an outsider replacing Mr. Steenhuisen and eventually somebody from the private sector. Have you heard?Michael Louis (15:41.038)There is that speculation, but personally, I think it's very difficult in a political party to bring an outsider. We've seen it happen that it doesn't really work because of the values, the language. And I think you need to be inculcated with the culture. I know, for instance, and I think with Trump, you would have seen to bring an outsider that's never been in government to understand government, the political system. The political system is a unique system. I've been both in that system and in private sector and I can tell you they're totally different. Just as a joke, I think with the political system, we have to go with an armoured vest every day to work and your enemy is not your opposition, your enemy is sitting in your own home and in your own house. And I think that's really difficult for an outsider to understand.Chris Steyn (16:37.016)Michael, you've been fighting a long and hard and vociferous battle for electoral reform. Where are we at with the Electoral Reform Commission's report to Parliament, the conflicting versions of that report? What now?Michael Louis (16:54.446)Well, Chris, the big thing is we've been talking about political leadership and we've been talking about the ousting of Cyril. And my synopsis is that the real problem in this country is not our political leaders, but it's the system that we involved in. And that's why, correctly, that I've been involved for six years in trying to change the system. But also because I'm a lawyer, I'm a constitutionalist, and law and order and respect for justice is one of the most important things for the safeguarding of a country. Now, in our political dispensation in 1996, when we had our constitution, it was always a transitional arrangement, our electoral system. So we always knew it wasn't a perfect system. And then we had a number of commissions…everyone without fail said we must change our electoral system to have more accountability. But now it's been going on for 30 years, 30 years, that we have not changed our electoral system and that caused civil society to stand together to fight the electoral system because we knew the politicians have got too much power, they were not going to do it on their own. So we had to go to the court and that court was six years because you have to go from the High Court then to another high court, then get permission to go to the Con court, then current court battles. But gracefully, we won that our Electoral Act was unconstitutional and that we must revive our electoral act. So, we as civil society must do everything to push through because the saddest thing has just happened that in the Electoral Act, the new one that was passed two years ago in 2023, the parliamentarians knew that the new electoral act didn't go far enough. And that's why they appointed an electoral panel to take a year to come up with a report to the minister and then to Parliament of how can we have a perfect electoral system. Chris, guess what happened? The panel worked for a year and we were all as civil organisations. Personally, the civil organisations that I lead, we submitted six different reports…Michael Louis (19:19.266)…with four different senior counsel advisors of all the legalities of how the system must look like and why it must look like it does look like. And can you believe it, in October, the Electoral Panel came out with a divided report. In the past, there was always a majority and a minority report. This time, it even went one step worse. Chairman of the panel lodged what they called an original report. And then another faction within the panel came with an adjacent report. And so there's no unity in it. And even although the basis and the background of the two reports are the same, the recommendations are vastly, vastly different. And the original report comes in and says, we've heard what the public and civil society has said, that we want more accountability and we want our representatives to be closer to the people. And so they've made two options to sort of support that. The outside faction, which in any case is made up of four members that civil society has always warned about that they were preemptive to a certain electoral system, that exactly the same came up and said, we..they came up with a more historic and practical type of review of the electoral system, but they did two things that was really shocking. The one thing is they said they're wanting to retain the current electoral system, which goes completely against the spirit of why they were there in any case, because that's why the panel was there to make it more complete. And then secondly, they brought in thresholds where they said that thresholds need to come into the political system. Now thresholds is very much ousting minority parties and independent candidates. So I know when I look at the report, they couldn't have considered all the work that the Independent Candidates Association that I represent submitted, because we know that there's a human right for independents to stand and smaller Section 54 organisations.Michael Louis (21:40.696)But not one independent candidate was represented because we knew that the system wouldn't allow them to come in. So Chris, it's extremely sad: what happened is that this report was rejected by the Standing Committee of Home Affairs two weeks ago. And because they got legal advice, Section 23 of the panel mandate that says you have to come with one report, you can't come with a divided report. And funny enough, in one of my oral submissions to the Home Affairs Standing Committee and to the panel, I said to them, please do me one thing, don't come with a divided report or don't come with a majority or minority report, because when civil society goes or anybody goes to the courts, it's very difficult for the courts to interpret a majority and minority or a divided report. And so if I could just land a plane on something even worse than that, which is very imminent, Chris, is that another missile is slowly being launched. And that is the local government, the Municipality Structures Act, which is now being published in March. But we know that the local government elections is going to be in November next year.This bill hasn't been published yet, hasn't been debated yet and enacted, and there's been no public participation. And the problem with this bill is this bill says that for anybody to qualify on local government, they must have between one and 3% threshold, which means again, that independents that have always been allowed to stand at local government election, all Section 54 organisations that are where… all the private sector, the churches and all of them has come together to manage a town… This bill has now put a type of spanner in the wheels. And let me just explain it to the viewers. For instance, if a political party, if the threshold for a municipality is 10,000 votes,Michael Louis (24:05.778)…and a civil organisation or independent gets 9,999 votes, they will not qualify to stand for office. But a political party that gets 10,100 will not only qualify for one seat, but could qualify for two seats because it qualified and then on the remainders it could qualify for its second seat.So, Chris, I'm really worried about it. And civil society is standing up, especially myself, watching it very closely because it is really an incumbent on Section 19 that says every person has the right to public office. And then secondly, the whole thing about freedom of association, which is Section 18, and then Section 36 that talks about the limitation of the rights.You know, civil society doesn't want to go into public office, but we are custodians of the law. If we don't oppose it and say we are constitutional state and fight these things, we will not have justice in this country and we will not have a proper system. And so my parting shot on this is that I believe that what's going to happen is that the Municipality Structures Act is going to be passed. There's going to be thresholds. Civil society is going to oppose it, but it's going to be past the deadline. The elections will go and people will be nominated. But what happens after the elections that the court finds that this bill is unconstitutional? What happens to all those seats and the reorganisation of people that got into office, not office, and it will be total chaos? So I think it's something that we need to watch closely and that the parliamentarians are very vigilant to understand that civil society will not stand back to make sure that justice is held.Chris Steyn (26:08.036)Hmm, Michael, you probably saw just recently an independent representing a group of independents took a ward, municipal ward of the African National Congress. So if this bill became law, that's not going to be happening very easily, is it?Michael Louis (26:21.262)Well, look the independent will always still stand, but he has to make the threshold. So thresholds are a very important thing. And so it's going to discount a whole lot of people that want to participate in the elections, not to participate because of this risk. So we haven't got a vibrant economy. And the big thing is about an electoral system and thresholds.Michael Louis (26:50.19)We've got still under 50% of our electorate that go to the polls, Chris. We cannot have a vibrant democracy if we do not get voters turning out to vote. And these type of thresholds, these type of regulatory stuff is an incumbent and a nail in a coffin for a vibrant democracy and allowing great citizens, educated, and an active civil society to be part of the system.Chris Steyn (27:20.366)Lastly, Neil de Beer, the late Neil de Beer, he sadly passed away before the start of the Madlanga Commission and the Ad Hoc Committee in Parliament. So he has not been here to hear the evidence of police and political capture. What do you think he would have said?Michael Louis (27:42.114)Well, he would have said it in his way a couple of things and I was very blessed to really be very close to him. And I've never ever seen an individual that just was one civil activist that turned into a major giant. And I just learned so much from him. And the big thing is I think he would have firstly called it a circus. As you know, he always, .… And he would have said it - and really been disgusted in what is happening, but he would have done what I'm doing is to motivate every single individual in this country to stand up. And really Chris, that is his heart and that's what I'm doing. We need to get the private sector, we need to get the churches, we need to get every individual to really stand up and be custodians of this country. We have a great country, we totally believe in it and we need to get our pride back. And so I personally have never ever attended so many meetings or facilitated so many meetings where individuals are coming up and saying, how can we stand up and be part to save this country? And that's positive. And so I think that would have made Neil's heart really be overflowing. And that's really what I'd love to see us get again is to be proud of our nation. Proud, proud, Proud of where we are and proud of where we're on our way to.Chris Steyn (29:16.896)Indeed. Thank you. That was Dr. Michael Louis on the NDB Sunday Show, so named in honour of his great friend, Neil de Beer, with me, Chris Steyn. Thank you, Michael.Michael Louis (29:32.344)Thank you, Chris, and a blessed Christmas and festive time to you, business and all the viewers. God bless.Chris Steyn (29:38.98)Thank you, Michael.

The NdB Sunday Show: Dr Michael Louis - Witness D assassinated amid plot to oust Cyril…

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