The NdB Sunday Show: Juanita Du Preez - A tale of 9 Ministers, 9 Commissioners & 30 years of cumulative decay

In the latest edition of the NdB Sunday Show, Chris Steyn speaks to Action Society’s Juanita du Preez about policing in South Africa since 1994. She rates the ministers and commissioners from good to terrible over three decades tainted by corruption, boards of inquiry, political purges, faction battles, cover-ups and policing policies that changed with every factional fight. “We can just summarise it as 30 years of cumulative decay. Crime intelligence was gutted by corruption, SAPS was militarised instead of professionalised, stations across South Africa became hollowed out, DNA forensics collapsed repeatedly…Political interference became normal and then they lost the public trust.” Du Preez also comments on the testimony of tenderpreneur Cat Matlala - particularly his allegations of corruption involving former Minister Bheki Cele, as well as the kidnapping of Ad Hoc Committee member MP Vushi Shongwe who was robbed of all his devices. Du Preez relates her court experience of the judge who has been arrested for corruption. And she gives her take on the latest crime statistics that show that 63 South Africans are murdered every day..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here:.Listen here:.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:02.286)Welcome to the NDB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn and Juanita Du Preez of Action Society. Morning, Juanita. Juanita Du Preez (00:11.864)Good morning, Chris. Chris Steyn (00:14.478)The belated crime statistics. 63 South Africans are murdered every day. But how accurate are those statistics? Juanita Du Preez (00:28.238)Well, yes, it is belated because we now on Friday, we had two quarters released because the first one was just skipped. That was for quarter one of 2025, 2026. And I think there was no explanation given, but we can assume it was because of the big corruption thing that was what's going on and Mchunu being placed on leave. So now we had quarter one and quarter two on Friday. Yes, so the new minister said it's not joyous. He didn't use the word joyous, but it's good news that it is down a little bit. The violent crimes, things like murder and attempted murder. But saying it is down and it's still at 63 per day, it's still very, very, very high. It is not acceptable. How believable it is, I do think it is. We always work on the crime stats and for murder and attempted murder, I think we can...believe those stats because it is, the police are involved when somebody is murdered. So those ones, yes. But if we look at the sexual offenses and rape, which has increased again, like it is every quarter, then I don't know how believable that is because people just don't go to the police anymore or not everybody goes there because they don't want to go through the long, long, long process that we know is the reality. Those are not 100% accurate. But for murder, yes, I would say that is more or less accurate, but still nothing to celebrate, nothing. Chris Steyn (02:40.214)So every time the crime statistics are released, you call for the same reforms. Would you like to do that again? Juanita Du Preez (02:47.406)Yes, we would indeed like to do that again. It is always the same thing and if people can just understand that, and I say people, I mean if the government can just understand that it's small things that can be done, that can fix the problems. We don't have to, well, the worse it gets, the...less easy it's going to be to fix the problems. Like I said to somebody else, there are solutions and we have to realise, unfortunately, the problem is so big, it's not going to be one day, one month, one year fix. It's going to take years and years for the problems to be fixed. But we should start. We can't just say that's well it's a problem and now we're just going to sit with the problem. We have to actively work and find solutions. …just some of the things that we continue saying is that if we focus on children, we can say there should be integrated case management system for child protection because they get lost in the administrative gaps and it's such a long process and there are so many places where the case can just not come to fruition. We need to invest in public-private partnerships and I was actually quite happy to hear when Minister Cachalia said in his introduction to the crime stats that they have started testing in some places, some public private partnerships and they have had success with that. So which proves what we've been saying, but now let's do it in a more structured way. Let's do it in a bigger way. If we have public private partnerships, in fact, if we go one step back, if we have decentralisation of for a start the police, we can... Juanita Du Preez (05:07.786)…we can put things in place so that we can have public-private partnerships. For instance, the DNA backlog that we have outsourced that to private companies, to universities. They have memorandums of understandings in place so that we are sure the chain of command is protected. Not the chain of command, the chain of possession, but make sure that is in place. And then we can work on that. I can't remember if it was during the crime stats or just after that. We heard again how big the DNA backlog is. During the commission, the Madlanga Commission and the committee, it was confirmed yet again what big a problem it is. So let's get a solution. It's available. Let's just get those memorandums of understanding in place and then just start working on the solutions. Chris Steyn (06:14.404)Now, if I have counted correctly, we have had nine ministers of police and nine national commissioners since 1994. I think this week one in particular stands out. He was national commissioner, let me check, from 2009 to 2011. And then he was minister from 2018 to 2024. Those are many years of power for a man who collects his cash in grocery bags. Juanita Du Preez (06:46.862)…and spins it on fancy hats. Chris Steyn (06:51.64)What did you make of the testimony of tenderpreneur Burberry-wearing, awaiting trial prisoner Cat Madlala about Bheki Cele? Juanita Du Preez (07:01.452)Yeah well it's difficult to distinguish who is the bigger crook because Cat is saying yes he gave, Cele asked him for a million rand but he only gave him 500 000 and he gave it to him in his money bag, the the Woolworths black bags, in two different occasions and he also introduced them to different to people who can further the cause. But like, and I really liked it. I keep going back to Glynnis Breytenbach's questioning of Cat, where she said, you're a crook, you're not a businessman. I just keep going back because I applaud what she said to him. If it fell on deaf ears, then so be it. But I think most South Africans agree with what she said. He is a crook, he's a criminal, he’s a guy who stole so that he can line his pockets and the poor people face the consequences because of that. And for him to say he gave money to Cele, it probably happened. But how would we know? Because he's a criminal. We can't believe what he's saying. He's just trying to cover his back. But on the other hand, we know that Cele was a bad guy. We've been, Action Society has been very vocal about Cele and he was, why was he fired from being National Commissioner? Not because his tenure ran out, because he is a corrupt guy. And then his ties to the criminal underworld is well known. Everybody knows. So I think there is some truth in what Cat is saying. But he is also a criminal, so can we really believe what he's saying? Nevertheless, both are crooks. Chris Steyn (09:03.896)President Cyril Ramaphosa. He kept resisting calls to fire as Neil de Beer called him Stoeletjie Tafeltjie Cele… funerals, for some other reason, was the social appearance he most preferred. Juanita Du Preez (09:15.49)Yes. Juanita Du Preez (09:28.334)I remember there was a clip of a guy sitting out of Parliament and said, yeah, Cele is just the minister of funerals and something. Funerals and interviews or something like that. When there's a camera, then he's there. He was well known for that as minister. Yeah, and it took a long time for him to be ousted. And it wasn't so much ousted as just he said he's retiring now. It was a change, a shuffle of the cabinet. So it could very well be that he just decided, okay, I'm done with this. My pockets are lined enough. I don't have to stay there anymore. But it begs the question, why did Cyril Ramaphasa not act against him? We know he was in the Cyril camp, but why was he so protected? Because he's obviously got some information on very high people, including the President. And that's why he was untouchable. So, yeah. And unfortunately, it was so interesting. I think we can discuss how successful the commissioners and the ministers were. But he was... Yes, we actually did. But he was before one of the worst as a...both positions. Well... Chris Steyn (10:43.748)Please do. Have you kept track? Have you kept track? Juanita Du Preez (10:53.57)I did a summary just to have a look and actually we can just summarise it as 30 years of cumulative decay. Crime Intelligence was gutted by corruption, SAPS was militarised instead of professionalised, stations across South Africa became hollowed out, DNA forensics collapsed repeatedly… Political interference became normal and then they lost the public trust. It's still not, it's gonna take a long time before we have that trust back, if we do, because there needs to be big changes before we can start the process of fixing the trust in the police. But it's...It's terrible, the track record of the past 30 years. I asked Chat GTP when I put all the data in, said, do you think South Africa, you don't have to be objective, be really honest. And I said, what do you think about the track record? What does it say about South Africa's safety? And the answer was: The track record is objectively terrible, not because policing is impossible, but because leadership has been catastrophic for long stretches. Most democratic countries have professional police chiefs, non-political appointments, strong oversight, decentralized policing, stable intelligence structures. South Africa had commissioners convicted of corruption, ministers fired for corruption, boards of inquiry, political purges, faction battles cover-ups and policing policies that changed with every factional fight. That's a very nice summary of of what we've had for the past 30 years And then I also looked at how damaging they were and I looked from from the early 90s to up to now and and from that there's there's only a handful that was… Juanita Du Preez (13:15.924)…some semblance of being good and didn't bring damage to South Africa. The good ones or relatively positive is George Fivaz. He was a National Commissioner and he was the only National Commissioner to leave without a scandal in the past 30 years. Which is really bad if you just. Only one. That's terrible. Then Steve Tshwete, was, and we're saying mostly positive. He played a big role in professionalising visible policing, which is important, and stabilising the SAPS morale. But that was back in 1999, 2002. That's a long time ago. And the negative thing about him that if you do research that comes out is that, and for me it's not really in hindsight, is it really negative? There was plot allegations against Ramaphosa, Sexwale and Phosa which damaged his reputation. But if in hindsight, how much truth was in there? If we now look at what is going on in the country and the allegations being made. And then we can't really measure him yet, but this is the top three that we have. And actually the only ones that comes out if you measure them like that is Feroz Cachalia, but he's only been in the job for a short time, but he's not had time to do anything bad yet. So we're happy about that. But he does have a reputation for being pro rule of law, anti-corruption. He's got a clean reputation. So I am hopeful that he points us in a good direction. And what I've heard of, he doesn't speak often. And I think maybe we just are used to ministers being like at any interview opportunity and any funeral, wherever there's a camera. He doesn't say a lot, Cachalia, but when he speaks, you can hear there's thought going into it or thought went into it..Read more:.NdB Sunday Show - Andy Mashaile: “Hurricane” Mkhwanazi: heralding a new era of law and order in SA.Juanita Du Preez (15:44.107)…and it makes sense what he is saying. So I think most people are keeping an eye on him and we want to see which direction is he going and so far it looks good. But if we go to the measurements again, then some people who were in the middle, not too bad, not too good. We had Sidney Mufamadi, who was Minister from 1994 to 1999. He played a role in the merger, the old South Africa with the new South Africa and the police systems that had to change a little bit. So he played a big role in that. But under his tenure, crime exploded in the 1990s. We can obviously say it was a transformation kind of time or over going from one to the other. It goes with a bit of unrest but he played a big role in getting it moved over. Then we had Charles Nqakula as Minister from 2002 to 2008. He oversaw some arms control and sector policing reforms, but violent crime worsened. And he said to citizens, if you don't like it, go out of the country. Or I think he said the word stop whining. So you don't want that. That really doesn't invoke a I'm with you kind of feeling to citizens if you are the Minister of Police, the one supposed to protect South Africans. He wasn't corrupt, but he wasn't effective. Then we had a well-known guy these days, Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi. He was Acting Commissioner 2011 to 2013. IIt's just not, I think he didn't have enough time to really bring any effective measures. But… Juanita Du Preez (18:07.791)…if you look at what he did, it's the same guy that we see now. A professional, he resists political interference, but his impact was limited because it was a short time and he was only acting commissioner. Then we had another Acting Commissioner, Lesetja Mothiba. He also had a very short time, no major scandals, but no measurable improvements, but the time was too short really for him to do good or bad. Yeah, that's why he's on that list. And then we have the commissioner who is the commissioner at the moment, Fannie Masemola. It's mixed.. he di improve the coordination for big things like cash-in-transit gangs and major arrests. I think he is a good, he is a police officer, he came from police, he knows how it works but violent crime is still very high. But I always wonder with somebody who like Cele, who was the minister and he was so involved, not like he is mandated to at all, how much power or authority does a commissioner have when the minister is so involved? So can we really put all the blame on Fannie Masemola if his hands are tied? I want to believe that he really wants the best for South Africa. And then we can quickly look at the bad ones, the really bad ones. Jackie Selebi was commissioner from 2000 to 2009. Juanita Du Preez (19:56.559)And the verdict says extremely bad. He was convicted for corruption, taking bribes from drug dealers. Sounds very familiar. Undermined the police forces credibility locally and globally. There was major politicisation and the destruction of the Scorpions. Then we have the man in the hat. Very bad verdict. Juanita Du Preez (20:24.665)…promoted militarised shoot-to-kill policing. He said that many, many times, first, ask questions later. Violent crime rose. It's highly politicised under his tenure. Factional people are demoralised. Procurement scandal, that was a big one. And that is also where some of the DNA backlog came into play, failed to fix DNA backlog, stations under resourcing and the discipline in the police. Then we had Nathi Mthetwa, Minister from 2008-2014, Marikaba happened under him, Crime Intelligence slash fund abuses under his watch and also politically aligned. Then we have the other Nathi Nhleko 2014 to 2017. He did the Nkandla firepool report. I mean really how anybody could think anybody would believe that Zuma's swimming pool at his, what do call it, homestead, was a firepool really. But anyways, also… Juanita Du Preez (21:48.111)…political influence playing a role there. Fikile Mbalula, Minister 2017-2018, Mr. I fear nothing. He seems like a guy who just says whatever he wants to, he doesn't think about anything, just the first thing that pops into his mind. Juanita Du Preez (22:17.623)He says and he puts it on X, Twitter X. His leadership was erratic. Luckily, it was just for a short while. He went to Dubai with private, through private companies that funded him. Yeah, he destabilised the SAPS in a short little time that he was there. Then we had Riah Phiyega, which she was a disaster. 2012 to 2015. Also Marikana…Commission found she misled the inquiry. So she lied. She was seen as a political appointment. She had no policing background. I think she gave herself two promotions in ranks during her time. And it wasn't a good time for the police. We had a… Commissioner again Khomotso Phahlane, 2015 to 2017, corruption charges, procurement irregularities, Blue Light tenders, just not a good guy. And then we came to Senzo Mchunu, potentially extremely bad is his verdict if we put it in the measurement tool. We know all the things that's being said about him. If the accusations are valid, which we do believe it is, one of the most damaging periods for the police and for the trust of South Africans in the police force. So, yeah, if you go through all of that, we've had basically two good people, not excluding Cachalia because it's too soon to tell, but it's terrible. So in 30 years, actually, it's just been corruption, politics, nothing to do with real safety for South Africans. And that is why we see crimes that's like we do. Chris Steyn (24:21.988)Now we have one of them in memes with his face on a Woolie's bag. I wonder how Woolie's marketing people are thinking about handling this. As Burberry people must be wondering how to, you know, do we do a prison line or what? Juanita Du Preez (24:38.575)Yeah, I see there was also some Fendi, was also one of the accessories that Cat Matlala, he just drips money, but ill-gotten money. Yes, like I really hope that he that it's not just for the case that he is incarcerated at the moment for his girlfriend's murder, but that all everything catches up with him and that he, that he does not have any influence after going to prison because we do know what happens. Crime bosses run their empires from prison. So I hope that with everything coming out that he's tainted for the criminal world and they don't want to do business with him anymore, but that it's just the start of all of these, at least the top five, but that we see things crumbling under under Cachalia and with Fannie Masemola and with everything that's coming out. I really do hope it brings change. Chris Steyn (25:44.568)Attempted murder for the girlfriend. She's luckily still alive. I don't know. Did you notice, was he wearing one of the Rolexes that he falsely claimed had been stolen? Did he? I couldn't. Juanita Du Preez (25:47.807)I didn't see it so closely. He’sd long sleeves on so you couldn't really see. But you can see the... Well, maybe they brought it to jail for him to put on for his court appearance, I don't know. You know, have to round off your outfit, you can't go without an expensive watch. It will look stupid. No, that guy is horrible. Chris Steyn (26:21.156)Now at Action Society, you deal firsthand every day with a dysfunctional justice system. Now, I've counted, we've also had nine ministers of justice. Nine seems to be the holy number here. But I think the person who stands out is Themb Simelani, who was simply just moved from Justice to another portfolio under a cloud of allegations of corruption. Juanita Du PreezAnd the thing with when these ministers are moved out, they always move to a less important, less impactful portfolio. It's always something smaller that they are moved to. Why not just take them out completely? It's probably because of the secrets and the stuff you have. Yes, all the important portfolios, we have failures, things just not happening as it should because it's just everybody covering for each other and for themselves and not having South Africa top of mind. It's for yourself, it's not for the country. And this is what we saw with Senzo Mchuna, if we believe all the allegations. The reason why he had all these little plans is because he wanted to be a president of the country and this is a shining example, I think of all the ministers. They just they they planning the their next steps: How to have more and more and more more power, more money, more connections that will sustain them after their tenure as minister Justice, yeah, justice is bad because we see…and the thing for us is at Action Society, it's easy for us to respond to people when they say the police is bad because crime affects everybody. But the justice system, it doesn't impact you until it impacts you. Normal people, we don't know what the justice system, the court system, how it should work, all the delays. Juanita Du Preez (28:42.991)You only find that out when you're in it and then you realise how bad it is We work with it every day. So we know how bad it is, but most South Africans it's It doesn't immediately impact you. But let me tell you, you just have to wish you're not in a situation where you have to go through the court process the criminal court process. Something that I just wanted to mention because it's almost laughable, but it's disgusting actually. We have a case that it's in Pretoria, not the Magistrates Court, it's in the High Court already. And it's for a woman who was, she was in the process of divorcing her husband after protection orders and lots of threats against her and her children, and they share a daughter as well. She was in the process, but he stopped, they had to stop to give each other documents and stuff. They stopped, he threw petrol on her and set her alight. This case, this happened in 2023. It is now in the High Court after some time in the Magistrates Court, but when it goes to High Court, the investigation must be completed. So then in, when was it? October, I think, was the last time or early November. We were in court again for the High Court and the State said, we can continue. The toxicology report is outstanding, but we can continue. We don't need that. Our case is strong enough without it. But then the defense said, no, we really want the toxicology report. We can't continue without it. And the judge…I was really, we all sat there and looked at each other because we've never seen something like that in court. She said, okay, why is the toxicology report not available yet? And they explained because of the investigation, the backlogs we have and so on and so forth. And she said, well, call the doctor right here in court,.Read more:.Juanita du Preez: The “Cat” that almost captured the country….Juanita Du Preez (31:07.161)…call the doctor who commissioned the toxicology report and ask them how long it's going to take. So in court, the prosecutor had to sit and call and he put it on speakerphone and she said, give me the phone. And she kept it on speakerphone and she asked the person, how long? can we have it within a week? And I was so impressed with this judge just taking you know saying enough is enough, let me take control here, but then she was sick for the next…they said yes within a week it was… she was sick the next next appearance and the day after the tox report was not ready so unfortunately… but I was still so impressed with how she took control. Fast forward to this week, we heard about a so sorry we heard about a minister, not a minister, Sorry let me just pause this, it went on by accident, I just want to put it on silent. We heard about a judge that was arrested, High Court, Pretoria High Court judge - and turns out it's that judge. So now we don't know how long we… Juanita Du Preez (32:32.495)…will have our case continue because it was postponed to, I think it was March next year. So now this case is not going to continue, but she and her son is on, they were arrested for 19 counts of corruption of influencing cases. So this is the legal people, the high ups that we have representing and again, it's the same as in the police. It's not everyone that is like that. It is just some of them and they give a bad name to all of the other ones. Because now we think, but she did it. Are the other ones also doing that? This is what we have in South Africa. Chris Steyn (33:16.174)Though you know there is much speculation about a certain other judge whose controversial decisions make for much debate. But we'll still hear more at the Commission and at the Ad Hoc committee, I'm sure. Now, an Ad Hoc Committee member was kidnapped, robbed of his devices, and a substantial amount of money. That was MP Vushi Shongwe. Don't you think it's time that the Ad Hoc Committee members get special protection considering the threats some of them are getting? Juanita Du Preez (33:50.775)I really think so because they're getting close to truths and this is why things like this is happening and it is a real threat. We've seen what happens to whistleblowers so now we see all of these things happening - and it's not the same as Brown Mogotsi shooting his own car and saying I fear for my life. This is real threats. People are nervous. Juanita Du Preez (34:13.263)….and they will act on their threats. And this is what we're starting to see. I really think we should protect these people. They are in danger, definitely. Chris Steyn (34:25.24)I don't know if you share this feeling with me, but some people have acted for many years as if though they are completely untouchable and so powerful that they could threaten and intimidate anybody. But I'm getting a sense now of people being put in corners and becoming panic stricken and become an acting like they are scared and in despair. I think this could be very dangerous for some. Juanita Du Preez (34:59.107)Yes, yes, because I think we've mentioned it before, all the alliances are now broken and nobody knows who am I in bed with, who got out of the bed without me knowing and somebody else got in. So yeah, I think it is very confusing for people and that because they don't know who is in their side on their side anymore, now they have to start making threats and making sure that they protect themselves. So that creates even more danger because it could be unfounded doubts or concerns that they have causing them to act. And it makes it even more dangerous because I want to say that the criminals are now unstable, but they are unstable people, even more, even more so now…where it gets dangerous is the ones who are not known criminals. They are not businessmen like Cat Matlala. It's the people who's in the forefront, who's putting up the face of somebody who's doing good and actually on the back end, they are just as big, worse criminals then. Chris Steyn (36:22.884)Like somebody was saying to me that there are people who are seeing their whole worlds falling apart, their empires crumbling. And there are some big names, I understand, that we will have difficulty believing. So we're looking forward to the rest of the testimony. Juanita Du Preez (36:42.191)At this stage, it comes out and I don't think anybody gasps for air anymore when we hear these names. I speak to other people when we speak about it, it's not news, it's not surprising when we hear these allegations, when we hear the proof. But it's still, I almost don't want to believe it, I have to believe it because we see the proof, we see the results of everything that was happening. But it's everybody knew it was bad. Now it's just proving, yes it was. It was really as bad as we thought and worse. And just about the proof, I wanted to say that when Mary de Haas…I'm happy that they really told her, you can't just come here and say things. You have to prove what you're saying. And that is something that throughout the commission and the committee, I keep saying, it's powerful bombs being dropped, but we need to see the proof of what is happening. Same thing now with Cat. He can say I had the bag but the one guy who says was with him he's now dead. So how do we know it really happened? All of them we need to see the proof to really sort out the problems. Chris Steyn (38:28.868)As we nearing the end of 2025, do you think that we are looking at a new era of policing and justice post-Madlanga Commission and post-Ad Hoc Committee? Juanita Du Preez (38:40.751)I don't know how long it's still going to be. It's already been extended. Both of their deadlines have been extended. And I hope it's thorough, but I hope it concludes soon. But I don't know if it's going to conclude still this year. But when it concludes, I really... I believe there is a change in the air. I think we have...more competent people now, people who supposed, who believe in what they are doing. If we look at Minister Cachaluia and with the help of Fannie Masemola, I do think there are changes coming. ..like I said, when Cachalia said, they've already seen success with investment in public private partnerships.. Juanita Du Preez (39:34.827)They are speaking, they saying good things. So if we start doing those small things, then it can be the turnaround, but there are many things that must fall in place, many things that must be changed for there to be real change. And then it's going to be more than a year for us to really see the results, but we have to start somewhere/ Chris Steyn (39:54.788)Thank you. That was Juanita du Preez of Action Society on the NdB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn. Thank you. Juanita Du Preez (40:05.519)Thank you, Chris.

The NdB Sunday Show: Juanita Du Preez - A tale of 9 Ministers, 9 Commissioners & 30 years of cumulative decay

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