Chris Steyn (00:01.016)

Welcome to the NdB Sunday Show. With me, Chris Steyn and intelligence analyst Jasmine Opperman of Fulcrum Analytics. Welcome, Jasmine.

Jasmine Opperman (00:11.44)

Morning Chris and morning to your listeners

Chris Steyn (00:15.022)

A great deal has emerged about crime cartels in South Africa in recent times, but what about the operations of shadowy international terror networks? For instance, Hamas. You're an expert on extremism, Jasmine. What is Hamas up to on South African soil?

Jasmine Opperman (00:36.422)

Hamas, we must remember. Their primary focus when it comes to incidents, when it comes to attacks, is against what they call the Zionist Evil, being supported by Iran financially, like Hezbollah. But they need funds, they need money.

Although they were elected as a government, and even with the UN giving them donations. For interest’s sake for your listeners, massive donations were given to them in terms of water distribution, water pipes, and they used all of that material to build rockets.

So Hamas' financial octopus reaches out wherever there's opportunity. Now we know ideologically where our government stands. There's a deep history there. We also know our government is ideologically blinded by the history of support they gained. We know that Hamas has offices in South Africa. We know that they allowed freedom to move and hence we will see that funds from South Africa to Hamas - and I cannot give you a number - The last time I checked there were 14 wallets linked to Hamas in South Africa with Bitcoin…

And that there are definite financial streams going to Hamas, going to Hezbollah. Iran using South African soil as a transit to Hamas…

Jasmine Opperman (02:20.396)

…is undoubtedly a fact if one starts looking at how the wallets are active and are actually supporting Hamas.

So there is no doubt that Hamas presence is not to execute attacks, but like I've always said to you Chris, there's more to terrorism than violence attacks and the financial support and South Africa's position is the ideal channel through which money can be transferred.

Chris Steyn (02:56.141)

What about ISIS?

Jasmine Opperman (03:00.13)

If we talk ISIS, we need to, if you would allow me and your listeners as well, the post-9-11 context is important. What we have seen, although it was Al-Qaeda, not ISIS, we have seen, and even ISIS, when they had the Caliphate, they had a very structured regime at play. Different departments, different responsibilities. But since the end of, since 9-11 and since the fall of the Caliphate, they have decentralised. That is to say, although we maintain their control over propaganda and finances, they allow the affiliates operationally to operate and allow the people that know the environment then to operationally plan and execute attacks. So they're not taking so much lead in that.

But when it comes to the propaganda, if you look at their claims to credit, they sometimes, they seldom… issue a false claim to credit; they might exaggerate the people that died, they might exaggerate Christians being attacked because good Lord there are so many Christians that have been killed at this point according to them. But the propaganda machine, the online radicalisation of people is at a high speed. It is the fast and the furious.

So what they are relying on now beyond their affiliates is individuals that get taken away by their propaganda and even execute attacks and that's more in Europe without necessarily claiming loyalty or affiliation to ISIS.

But these individuals then go…

Jasmine Opperman (04:59.096)

…and execute and that's why it's sometimes so difficult. Is this an ISIS attack or not? ISIS does not release a claim to credit. It becomes a salad bowl, as someone has said, of terrorism where radicalisation has picked up in speed.

It's extremely difficult for any counter organisation to be able to monitor and counter these attacks. And we even see it in Mozambique…Cabo Delgado

Chris Steyn (05:30.402)

What do you know about the South African who was kidnapped recently?

Jasmine Opperman (05:35.879)

Let's start off by first looking at where this happened in Niassa. Niassa is nothing new to the insurgents. I remember quite a few years back I got a call from a hunting company. They want to go to Niassa. Is it safe? I said to them, stay out. They are present, they use it as a backfall, food where they can recuperate and from there move back into Mozambique de Praia.

They ignored my warning and within 24 hours they had to be evacuated. So the attacks that we have seen now in Niassa is no surprise. They have been there for about three, four weeks. A group of, now group numbers are very difficult, but roughly 30 to 50.

Executed these attacks, yes, but it's interesting to note that there is no reference to the South African. My contact in Mozambique, which I've spoken to prior to this interview, said the last he has heard is that he was seen moving with the group, that he was slowing them down. Now, I don't want to jump to conclusions here. Is he still alive? Is he not alive? I do not know.

But the South African kidnapping will not be of such tremendous financial benefit or propaganda value to amplify this. If it had been in America or the UK, that is something totally different. So that he was in the hunting industry, yes. They could have referred to it that he was a mechanic, whatever that means in the hunting environment, but that if he is still alive, we are lucky…

Jasmine Opperman (07:30.372)

…because the claims to credit the attack on the police station and the hunting camp makes no reference to him specifically.

Chris Steyn (07:41.014)

Jasmine, do you know whether ISIS trained operatives from Mozambique are involved in criminal operations in South Africa?

Jasmine Opperman (07:52.679)

And I've said this previously, the door for ISIS in South Africa is organised crime. And we have seen that repeatedly, where ISIS material was found, propaganda material, the weapons and how to put them all together, but in an organised crime context, so that they are definitely present and active in your organised crime environment in South Africa without a shadow of doubt.

Is financial flows taking place to Somalia, Puntland specifically, without a shadow of doubt? I know and I'm going back three, four, five years maybe, I knew of three shops in Johannesburg where the people and I've spoken to them openly admitted that they are transferring these monies. They're not interested in extremist activities, but by giving financial support, that they feel is sufficient.

So again, like Hamas, South Africa is the ideal organised crime playground for the Islamic State, yes.

Chris Steyn (09:12.536)

Do we know how close some Hamas linked individuals are to individuals or people in the South African government?

Jasmine Opperman (09:22.662)

I do not have the specific facts, but what I can tell you is if you look at the protest actions that are taking place, if you look at Hamas and Hezbollah flags and even an Islamic State flag…now one has to be careful that if someone is waving a flag that they are automatically a terrorist. That is not the case.

But the support for the anti-Israel fight, the government's stance on this is giving groups like Hamas, and I want to include Hezbollah, I want to include Iran here, which is, we know where we stand with Iran from a government's perspective.

It is most likely, I would say highly probable, that Hamas supporters in South Africa are active. Have we picked up any Hamas fighters or loyalists going there to fight. Again, you run into a block here because to get those names is not very easy. But if I look at the South Africans that went to support Israel, and it's interesting, Chris, if you would allow me, how the media made such a big issue of this. South Africans supporting Israel. Hamas never featured. And I'm thinking, but something doesn't make sense here. What about fighters going? Because the anti-Zionist sentiment must not be underestimated. It's picking up. And I'm not talking South Africa only. I'm talking in the Western world where anti-Zionism, anti-Semitism is on a high, disconcerting as it is.

And by no means, if I say disconcerting, am I supporting Netanyahu and what he always does in Gaza. I mean it's horrific what we are seeing. But at the end of the day, that there must have been fighters going over to side with Hamas without a shadow of doubt, yes.

Chris Steyn (11:38.712)

So why is our government not perturbed? Or why does it even allow these terrorist organisations to operate on our soil?

Jasmine Opperman (11:50.471)

You know, I had a few engagements at that time. It was the Department of Foreign Affairs. I had long discussions with them. They eventually said they want no further interaction with me because they come back to the question of, but these guys are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters. And then we were, and I hate this debate. It is so boring. And I said, but wait now. You say to me they are freedom fighters. The ANC was a freedom organisation. There's no comparison in terms of how civilians were targeted. If the ANC wanted to, and this was my message to them, wanted to kill more white people, they would have done so. Why hasn't it happened? There's a difference here. And the difference is the October attack. Horrific. Women being raped. I've seen some of those videos. And they bragged about it. They didn't keep silent about it. They made a whole show of it.

And then all the conspiracies and the point is simply that they are fighting Israel. They deserve an independent homeland and no one is arguing against that. I'm not going to argue against that. I mean, it's a complex issue.

But the way it is being done, terrorism is only going to accelerate. Now, my concern is, where we are today is if I look at what Netanyahu is doing with the election coming up for him and for Trump at the mid term, is that the next generation of violent extremists, violent terrorists have already been generated.

There's nothing left in Gaza, nothing. Does Israel have the right to defend itself? Yes, he does. No one is arguing that. How do you fight a tunnel warfare? I still need to read an article if someone can show me how best to fight Hamas in the tunnels without killing civilians because they use civilians as a smoke screen with no respect for civilian life. And you want to tell me they're freedom fighters? They're fighting a rightful cause in the way they do? Nonsense.

Jasmine Opperman (14:17.292)

Absolute nonsense, not the way it's been done.

Chris Steyn (14:21.026)

The war on Iran is not going according to plan. That must be emboldening terrorist organisations across the world.

Jasmine Opperman (14:34.404)

We must again, let's just take care here because Iran has also executed attacks in Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia. Yeah, because they support the Americans. Iran is a Shia country. That means a brand of Islam distinct from Sunni Islam, which is distinct from Salafism, which is the extremist variant thereoff.

What has happened is from these groups from a Muslim perspective, an Islam perspective, they would see this as good versus evil. Will it bring closer Shia to Sunni? No way in hell it will happen.

Iran. And I cannot understand and don't ask me why Trump has done this. I wish I could give you a clear-cut answer, but I think it was a fatal mistake he has made because you better know when you take on Iran what you're taking on. And that it's going to unite Iran and the Shia, yes. Will it unite the Sunnis siding with Iran, taking the Middle East complexities? No, it will not.

If you take ISIS, if I can again, and I hope I'm not going around Cape Town, I'll explain this. ISIS does not support Hamas, does not support Hezbollah because they are fighting for a state, Lebanon, independent Palestinian state. ISIS says no, we don't want states, we want a world Caliphate. Al-Qaeda has the same goal too, by the way.

Jasmine Opperman (16:27.408)

But what is happening in Gaza gives them the propaganda value. And we have seen ISIS propaganda without supporting Hamas, how they are actually saying, do you see the evil of the West in supporting Israel?

And that is where it begins and that is where it ends. But will it initiate, amplify, accelerate extremism, quick radicalization, attacks against Jews? We've seen what happened in London, Germany, Belgium, I could go on forever. Yes, it will.

We have entered now and I'm going back to my saying, fast and furious radicalisation. We are going to see the frequency of these attacks.

To come back to your question on South Africa, it is as if the South African government, and I mean this in a constructive way, is confusing their past with foreign policy. They're aligning with countries like Iran, and I can't help but ask myself, what is the benefit for South Africa and all this? Because Iran will exploit this. There are many articles written how Iran has sponsored the court case of genocide. I have a lot of allegations, no fact, but has Iran played a role? Whatever that role is, be it support, be it financially, be it from a foreign policy perspective, yes.

It is interesting Chris, and I've been working terrorism for years, you know this. I've been contacted by diplomats, not once by the Iranians, not once, because they know where I stand.

Chris Steyn (18:31.704)

Thank you. That was Jasmine Opperman, intelligence analyst of Fulcrum Analytics on the NdB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn. Thank you.

NdB Sunday Show: Jasmine Opperman: 14 Bitcoin wallets link Hamas to South Africa