The NdB Sunday Show — Jonathan Deal: Mkhwanazi, Masemola, The Big 5 - and the silence of the GNU…

Now that Parliament's Ad Hoc Committee into police and political capture has concluded its hearings, Safe Citizen Founder Jonathan Deal tells Chris Steyn why South Africans should pay close attention to the final testimonies of Generals Fannie Masemola and Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi. “When specialised units are allegedly dismantled under questionable circumstances, when 121 dockets can be controversially moved, when sworn testimony speaks of interference, weak vetting, procurement irregularities, and possible infiltration of the criminal justice system, the man in the streets understands exactly what this means. Extortion, assassinations, failed cases, fear, and criminals acting as if they were untouchable.” Deal slams the leadership of the Government of National Unity (GNU) for being “largely silent on the shocking things that are emerging in public”. He talks about the feared Big 5, and expresses the fear that despite the public exposure of crooked cops and criminal cartels, organised crime bosses will continue to try and capture politicians and top police officials. “I think that they might be a little bit more cautious, but it is after all, if one is in the criminal syndicates in South Africa, it is the only thing that you do. It's your source of income and the vested interests there are enormous.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.233)Welcome to the NdB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn and Jonathan Deal, the Founder of Safe Citizen. Morning, Jonathan.Jonathan (00:11.596)Morning to you Chris.Chris Steyn (00:14.077)Jonathan, Parliament's Ad Hoc Committee into police and political capture has concluded its hearings. Why do you think South Africans should pay close attention to the final testimonies of Generals Masemola and Mkhwanazi?Jonathan (00:35.96)Thanks for that question, Chris. I think that it would be useful for your viewers and particularly the man in the street to maybe contextualise this. And my view is simply because this issue is no longer confined to experts, committees or legal textbooks, and it's now a national crisis. I lead Safe Citizen and our concern is not academic theory or political spin. Our concern is whether South Africans are safe, protected and whether criminals are still able to do whatever they want to do. I think it would be fair to say one doesn't need a law degree to recognise a warning light. When specialised units are allegedly dismantled under questionable circumstances, when 121 dockets can be controversially moved, when sworn testimony speaks of interference, weak vetting, procurement irregularities, and possible infiltration of the criminal justice system, the man in the streets understands exactly what this means. Extortion, assassinations, failed cases, fear, and criminals acting as if they were untouchable.So I think let the lawyers analyse the statutes, let the criminologists debate theory, but someone must speak plainly for the citizen who is paying the price of State failure. And that is why Safe Citizen has a right and frankly a duty to speak. And I don't offer an academic opinion, but rather sketch the shocking events, the literally complete lack of control of one of the most critical departments in national government.Chris Steyn (02:10.621)What to you was the biggest accountability red flag in the testimony of National Commissioner of Police General Fannie Massemola?Jonathan (02:20.662)I think quite clearly when the National Police Commissioner had to admit that he didn't know much about the briefing of the critical documents and where they were stored, that 121 documents in absolutely critical criminal cases could be moved around without him knowing it. And the results of that are quite clear. Collapsed prosecutions, a chain of custody risk, case delays, witness risk. And I think that translates into what we see happening with whistleblowers. In South Africa, whistleblowers are too often threatened or hunted, impoverished and killed. And so from my point of view, when telling the truth becomes a potentially fatal act, the country is no longer dealing with ordinary corruption, it's dealing with the capture of fear itself.And in fact, I would say that if one looked at all occupations across the world, the most dangerous job in the world, statistically, is probably being a whistleblower in South Africa.Chris Steyn (03:36.979)Jonathan, let's go to that 31 December directive to disband the Political Killings Task Team. What should South Africans now infer from that move? Jonathan (03:49.838)Well, I think that we could infer only one thing, and that is governance. The lack of governance is completely unacceptable. And it's not our job to try and guess and understand motives. But when a high-impact operational decision comes with unclear rationale, a messy process, and contested implementation, the public is entitled to ask, who benefits?And I think, if I'm correct, it was this aspect more than anything else that caused the sequence of events where the then Minister of Police, Minister Nchune, stepped aside for Feroz Cachalia. And of course, this all arose from the allegations of General Mkhwanazi. But I can tell you that as...as a South African citizen and somebody who through the Safe Citizen network was following the police more closely than most people, when Minister Mchunu was appointed and Cele finally left, finally, I had hope. I actually thought that we would see concrete, measurable and positive change in the policing environment in the institution that SAPS is supposed to be to South Africans. So you can imagine my disappointment when all of this broke.Chris Steyn (05:19.314)Now we have heard repeated references to the Big Five. What is your take?Jonathan (05:26.955)Yeah. Well, first of all, we only get to know who two of the Big Five are. Only two of the alleged Big Five are publicly identified in material before the Ad Hoc committee. And that is Vusimuzi Cat Matlala and Katiso KT Molefe. The other three have not been named. Apparently General Masamola is quite clear about the fact that the police have identified who the other three are, but they are not going to identify them at this stage, apparently because of investigations in progress. If that is the case, we hope that the investigations that are in progress are being better managed than the ones that have been exposed to the public so far. But certainly, it's not enough to hint at syndicates on camera and then deliver no courtroom outcomes. And that becomes entertainment rather than justice for South Africans.Chris Steyn (06:30.972)Now, not only the generals and other senior police officers, but many witnesses have made very disturbing allegations. Were you able to distinguish the truth from disinformation and misinformation?Jonathan (06:49.779)Actually, at this point in time, there's not really anything conclusive. We've heard testimony, but testimony doesn't necessarily establish evidence that would be accepted by a court, and it also does not establish any type of criminal sanctions. So we are still largely sitting in the dark around the very disturbing allegations that we've heard, apart from the big generals that were playing in the sandbox.Chris Steyn (08:39.686)There have been quite serious attempts from certain quarters to discredit General Mkhwanazi, but he stood strong - especially during his last appearance. What did you think?Jonathan (08:53.837)I think that he's, of everybody, of everybody that has appeared on the Madlanga Commission and the Parliamentary Ad Hoc Commission, he in the flesh is the most credible. He doesn't seem to be tripped up on his facts. They can ask him the same question from six different directions and they generally get the same answer.There were allegations that he thought he was going to be reevaluated for his position as a provincial commissioner and that's why he strategically created his media release in the middle of last year. I don't think so. I think that he has got too much credibility for his testimony to be dismissed as something that he contrived to keep his position as provincial Police Commissioner.Chris Steyn (09:51.645)We've also seen desperate attempts to cover up and intimidate witnesses. We saw the assassination of Witness D, but we have now also seen the arrest of his alleged killer.Jonathan (10:08.405)Yeah, that was shocking as well of Witness D's killer. Interestingly enough, or intriguingly in fact, the person that's been arrested is somebody that was trained, highly trained in the art of shooting and long range shooting by SAPS. I read in articles that it costs SAPS round about a million rand to train him to that degree. He was then working for a private family somewhere in Johannesburg. And the media reports were quick to point out that the private family had nothing to do with his after hours or so called after hours activities. But certainly, I think that what came out of that was that the SAPS are losing a lot of highly paid people and highly skilled people to the private sector. And of course, this is where this man was pulled into the system. So I wondered about that. And there's still a lot of stuff up in the air that doesn't make sense. I think if you, you know, one can just look at a parallel in the United States where there was an attempted assassination of Donald Trump and all of the speculation that happened around that all of the armchair experts in ballistics and shooting and all sorts of skills that came up with their different theories. But it will be very interesting to see where it goes when we finally get to the bottom of the story.Chris Steyn (11:46.685)Jonathan, do you think that all the revelations and allegations at these public hearings have put the brakes on attempts by organised crime to capture politicians and top police officials?Jonathan (12:05.399)Chris, I don't think so. I think that they might be a little bit more cautious, but it is after all, if one is in the criminal syndicates in South Africa, it is the only thing that you do. It's your source of income and the vested interests there are enormous. And we have seen this with the assassination of whistleblowers. So if life is cheap in South Africa, and I've spoken about this in other interviews as well. People die in this country for a nice pair of tekkies or a cell phone. If life is cheap in the general population of South Africa, the people that have these vested interests of billions of rands will stop at nothing to assassinate people. And I don't think that this will necessarily be arrested. And if I had to say how will South Africa ever escape from under this issue, it will be when the government starts working with the public and providing an institution that the public can trust, that there's institutional trust in SAPS, but also that the government understands that they will never ever win the war against crime at any level, including the level that you've referred to in your question, without the willing cooperation of the public.Chris Steyn (13:40.274)So are you saying that this is not going to prevent South Africa from becoming a Mafia State?Jonathan (13:49.858)I think South Africa is already, to a large extent, a Mafia State. If you've got criminals calling the shots at the highest levels of the institution that is expected to protect South Africans, I think that that is a good definition of a Mafia State.Chris Steyn (14:12.412)Jonathan, what is expected of Parliament now?Jonathan (14:16.625)I think that Parliament and SAPS have got a joint responsibility. The biggest thing that Parliament could do would be to remove the South African Police Services or remove the politics from South African Police Services. South African Police Services have for decades and by previous governments been used as a political football because who controls the police generally to an extent controls the populace. But what has happened is that we have seen a rise in criminal activity at all levels with the devolution of the South African Police Services over the last 10 to 15 years. It has just been a downward trajectory.From SAPS’ point of view, they need to stop managing the optics and start delivering outcomes. And Parliament should also know that if people have interfered with investigations, they must face the consequences. No protected people, no sacred counts. Quite frankly, South Africans are sick and tired of commissions and committees that end with reports instead of arrests.Chris Steyn (15:38.544)Jonathan, do you think that there will be any real change unless there is a change of government?Jonathan (15:51.147)I think that...it could be possible. It could be possible that there could be a significant change or an appropriate change under the government that we have. I'm now referring to the Government of National Unity. But I think it's highly unlikely. As a South African and on various other issues, I have been entirely shocked, to use one of his own words, and disappointed with the performance of President Ramaphosa in many areas. I'm extremely concerned that since July last year, right up until March this year - and I do understand that this is a Parliamentary process and it's not open to general discussion - but I've been shocked that the leadership, the National Executive Committee, the leadership of the Government of National Unity are largely silent on the shocking things that are emerging in public. So I have my doubts. I think that South Africans need to give the political system in this country a real shakeup if we're going to see change. And I'll cover that possibly.Chris Steyn (17:22.45)How can South Africans do that, Jonathan? Without breaking the law themselves.Jonathan (17:27.821)But yeah, I think at the ballot box. Under no circumstances can South African citizens, law abiding South African citizens who today are operating as law abiding people, under no circumstances can they resort to illegal activities politically, economically, just in their daily lives. They need to make these changes at the ballot box. And it is up to citizens who are democratically engaged, accountable and responsible - as Rob Hutchinson from Dear South Africa calls - it to stand up and lead this. And I suppose that I would like to say to you or conclude what I think about this is to say that Safe Citizen doesn't care who wins the internal battles. We do care who wins on the streets. And if dockets can disappear into bureaucracy, if whistleblowers and investigators are assassinated, if the best crime fighting tools are rendered useless, and if the leadership of SAPS are out of control, then justice is optional. And something that is intriguing me at the moment is that while all of this is happening, the South African Police Services through the auspices of NEDLAC are still firmly pushing the outdated ideology of the African National Congress, not the Government of National Unity, but the ANC to disarm South African citizens. So they are proving to be remarkably determined and effective in pushing an agenda to disarm South Africans in the middle of a state of affairs like this. I don't think that it's just reprehensible. I think that it is almost criminally negligent. And I think that South Africans must demand transparent governance, protected investigators and consequences. Because without that, Chris, criminals are effectively governing South Africa.Chris Steyn (19:46.588)Jonathan, finally, what is your direct message to South African police services and politicians?Jonathan (19:55.723)I think I'd just like to go back to what I said earlier because it bears repeating. Stop managing optics. Empower the police to do their work. Get the corrupt people out of it and start serving the public and protecting them as you should be.Chris Steyn (20:18.748)Thank you. That was Safe Citizen Founder, Jonathan Deal on the NdB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn. Thank you, Jonathan.Jonathan (20:28.641)Thank you, Chris.

The NdB Sunday Show — Jonathan Deal: Mkhwanazi, Masemola, The Big 5 - and the silence of the GNU…

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