The NdB Sunday Show: (Ret.) Col Chris Wyatt - SA: Iran & China, the DA “Dumpster Fire” & the next coalition government

In his latest appearance on the NdB Sunday Show with Chris Steyn, US Intelligence Analyst Retired Colonel Chris Wyatt covers a wide range of international and national issues: South Africa’s “massive own goal” joint military exercise with Iran; a South African Flight Academy’s alleged support of the Chinese military with NATO expertise; the steps he would take as South Africa’s President, the prospect of targeted sanctions on some political leaders; what constellation of parties would likely be in the next government as the African National Congress (ANC) continues to lose support; the “Dumpster Fire” Democratic Alliance and it leader John Steenhuisen; the myths surrounding the Refugee Programme; US President Donald Trump’s Greenland agenda; and how he is likely to shock the world next..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:02.068)Welcome to the NDB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn and US Intelligence Analyst Colonel Chris Wyatt. Welcome Chris. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (00:13.484)Well, yes, thank you, Chris. Welcome to you as well. That's your programme, but it's good to see you again. How are things? Chris Steyn (00:19.412)I'm fine, thank you. And that’s side? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (00:22.646)Well, it's a little crazy on this side. Donald Trump, everyone in South Africa seems to think that he's obsessed with South Africa and I keep telling them, no, he's not. It's really not something that gets much of his attention. He's much more obsessed with Greenland. You might've noticed this week. Chris Steyn (00:38.39)Well, Iran, what is your take on those joint military exercises? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (00:47.054)Well, it's evidence that the African National Congress, despite its public pronouncements, despite its claims that it's a neutral actor, that South Africa's foreign policy is not aligned with anyone, it's poppycock. It's absolutely balderdash. It's always been balderdash. It was pretty obvious for anybody who was paying attention when South Africa joined 30 plus other countries in Africa, they refused to condemn Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine back in 2022. And they said, well, we're neutral. We're not getting involved. Then we see Sir Ramaphosa go on this fake peacemaking mission in which he embarrassed himself and the officials who went with him, violated diplomatic norms by bringing … weapons and unauthorised, unapproved people on diplomatic flight landing in Poland and then trying to turn it into a racial issue. Oh, they're just racial. They won't let us in the country. No. When you have a diplomatic flight, you must declare all personnel, you must declare all weapons. If they let you bring weapons, you don't bring in crate loads of weapons and a security force without approval of the host nation. And the Poles rightly forced them to stand on plane. So look, what's going on is just a bit crazy. South Africa has, ANC I should say, has proven that its friends are in Havana, Beijing, Moscow, Caracas, and places like that, Tehran, not in London or Paris or Tokyo or Canberra or Washington or Ottawa. It doesn't want to have friends in the West. But it loves to take the handouts from the West and try to play this guilt game with the West about give us Just Energy Transition money or give us this, give us that. The current imbroglio where the situation is at really started with South Africa, the ANC, allegedly complaining about the US being aggressive towards South Africa when Expropriation Without Compensation was signed last year. It had actually been signed December of 2024, but Ramaphosa made a big show signing it at Davos. But all the US did was stop giving free money away. The South African government has proven its friends are in Tehran. And what do I make of this exercise? This is a massive own goal. Even the Europeans look at this going, what are you doing? Look, we get China, Russia, you already did the exercise twice with them, but why are you inviting Iran in the midst of what's going on in Iran? Those ships should have turned back. And it's not just the Iranian Navy, Chris. This is the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. This is a designated terrorist group. So South Africa's government is hosting… Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (03:09.462)…a terror group on its own shores at its own Naval facility. This is beyond the pale and people may not like that, but that's reality. This is a group that sponsors terrorism and participates in terrorist activities around the world, not the Iranian Navy, but the Revolutionary Guard. And that's who we're talking about here. So my take on this is that it was intentional. Excuse me. My take on this is it was intentional. That was the goal that it was intended or these people, as Neil once said, are really that stupid. I can't believe they're that stupid. Is anybody that stupid to see the optics of this? Whether you like the United States or not, you've jeopardised over $20 billion of two-way trade where you have a $7 billion surplus and you have beneficiation of your goods. You've put that on the rocky shoals and sacrificed that for what? And you keep telling people that things about the ICJ that simply aren't true. Listen, it seems to me that the actions from the outside… Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (04:00.918)of the African National Congress seem to be intended to appease or please their overlords in Tehran. What's the purpose of the ICJ case? By the way, the Gambia's case against Myanmar for genocide, that case, which is historic first ever case of one country taking another country to the ICJ for genocide, the ANC still hasn't joined it. Yet UK, Germany, and several other countries… have joined that as friends of the court. But the ANC is so concerned about genocide, except when it comes to Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar. The hypocrisy is beyond the pale. And it speaks to one thing. The ANC is in bed with the Mullahs in Tehran. And you know what? South Africa is sovereign state. That's their choice. They can do what they want. But to think the United States is going to sit back while a State sponsor of terrorism gets away with the nonsense they're getting away with, and while ships go to South Africa, and then we see this mealy mouth back and forth. They're part of the exercise. They're not part of the exercise. We're a sovereign state. This is our business. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (04:58.574)They're going, they're not going. Look, there's a real disconnect in the African National Congress government. And I believe in part, this is still the fracture inside the ANC that we saw in July of 2021 when the internal ANC insurrection unfolding in KwaZulu-Natal and in Gauteng. It's still playing out. This party is not united inside the government, let alone in the country. Chris Steyn (05:19.532)Chris, how far do you think the ANC would go to support Iran? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (05:26.242)Let me take another sip of my beverage here. Gosh, that's, how far will they go? Well, I don't know. There's lots of supposition, lots of allegations of what they'll do, but it seems it doesn't matter what the public perception is, or maybe that's the goal. Maybe they want the people who back them or their supporters to believe that they do back around. I don't know, would they? Would they engage in military operations? Probably not. I mean, the South African military is in such a dilapidated state that it really couldn't accomplish much of anything. They'd have a hard time stopping the tuna boats off of the coast of Mozambique, let alone get involved in combat. So I don't think they'll do that. I don't think they'll send mercenaries to Iran to fight, you know, in the streets. I don't think that's going to happen. I think what will continue to happen is that the African National Congress will publicly support anything that the Iranians want in the United Nations. And they'll call for action in Security Council. It's interesting that the South African government, it's the actions that they don't take I think are more important than ones they do take. The South African government and President Ramaphosa screamed up and down, we demand an immediate Security Council meeting for the breaking of the rules-based international order when the United States extradited Nicolas Maduro from Venezuela, illegitimate president sitting in an illegitimate seat having stolen two consecutive elections in a row. There was an extradition order for him that went back to 2020 and the Venezuelan government wouldn't comply with it. Now right or wrong, I'm not here to debate that. I'm here to say that what the US did was not a kidnapping, it was an extradition of a wanted accused felon. And that's what we have. So the South African government was very vocal and adamant. Oh, look at this. This is wrong. Where is the South African government when it comes to asking for an urgent Security Council meeting on the slaughter of thousands, possibly tens of thousands of peaceful protesters on the streets of Iran as the government was in jeopardy? They are nowhere to be found. The South African government has lodged no complaint with the Security Council. The South African government has raised no issue with the international community. The South African government has said nothing about the rules based international order. Apparently, slaughtering people in the streets of your country is a domestic issue that is of none of our concern. At least that's the approach the South African government has taken. So how far will they go? They'll go far enough to look the other way at the innocents being slaughtered on the streets of Tehran…and all the other cities across Iran. Chris Steyn (07:30.252)Over to its relationship with China, the US has accused South African Flight Academy of supporting the Chinese military with NATO expertise. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (07:50.86)Yes, they have. And in fact, Chris, I've been reporting on this for over a year. Last year, when the Expropriation Without Compensation order was signed and then President Trump in early February signed Executive Order, which ceased financial aid to third parties in South Africa. By the way, most of the money went to non-government organisations, not to the government of South Africa. People need to understand that. So it didn't really punish the government of South Africa. It hurt people in South Africa, which is unfortunate, especially those with HIV. But when that happened, President Trump also allowed for the possibility refugees coming over. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (08:25.71)Oh, sorry about that. A little under the weather this morning. So when that happened, Chris, I lost my spot. Where are we at? What was the question? Sorry. Chris Steyn (08:34.774)We're talking about that Flight Academy. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (08:37.194)Flight Academy. Yeah. Okay. So when President Trump signed that Executive Order, the South African government was very vocal and adamant about, whoa, what are they doing? Why are they attacking us? This is aggressive. We didn't do anything. To which I produced several slides of just about two dozen egregious offenses that South Africa has committed against the United States or allowed to occur. Tucked in amongst that list of things on my slides that I presented repeatedly over the past year is a mention of how the Flying Academy of South Africa had been training People's Liberation Army pilots to NATO standards using US and former NATO pilots to train them to kill US pilots. Now, this is an egregious offense that needs attention. South African government ignored it, did nothing about it when our diplomats addressed it to them. Another reason. Now, these are things that play out behind the scenes that aren't public. So the public's like, what have we done? Well, you've done an awful lot that's harmed US, its national interests, its national security, and its friends, partners, and allies. And this is one of those things. The test flying academy was founded by the ANC government, a government sponsored, founded organisation. I don't know its current status, whether it's a parastatal or it's a private organisation, but they founded it. And it's training Chinese People's Liberation Army. Why? There are plenty of pilots around the world that could use flight training beyond this. And this is something I've mentioned for every year. Now what's happened is that we find out that some time ago, apparently US interdicted flights or mission control simulators that are using US based software according to the US Department of Justice. Not according to Chris Wyatt, not according to Chris Steyn, not according to us, according to the US Department of Justice. And they've had these for some time now. They caught them in Singapore. Now here's a couple of things that the South African government should take note of. Number one, when you say Trump just doesn't understand about expropriation, but the US government under the Biden administration, the Intelligence Committee discovered that these trainers were being shipped to China, interdicted them and seized them with the cooperation of Singapore authorities. What does that tell you? That tells you that it's pretty good intelligence apparatus, number one. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (10:34.294)Number two, it also tells you that this is not something that's US issued. The Singapore authorities would never have allowed US government to seize that stuff without legitimate basis for it. Now in their defense, the Test Flying academy in South Africa has issued a statement with an internal report that they claim they did and released last year internally, but now they're releasing it public off their website saying that they went through this and all it was was Windows off the shelf technology. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (10:58.958)To which my answer is I've offered them an opportunity to come on my programme. It's a weekend, so I don't know if they haven't had a chance to review it yet. So I'll give them a fair chance and we'll listen what they have to say and maybe they're correct. But I don't know, a press release is not adequate to answer this question. Because my first question on this Chris is really, so you're shipping to China, the country in the world now that produces the most Windows based computers makes them in China. So you're shipping PCs from South Africa to China, all they have on those Windows 11. Seriously?.Read more:.The NdB Sunday Show - Roland Tatnall: Oil reality check for Trump & SA’s fuel price future.Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (11:27.118)Give me a break. I mean, I'm not going to buy that for a second. I need to hear more here because the US government didn't do this under Trump. They did this under Biden. These were intercepted in 2024 before Biden left office. And he was in office for three months before Trump took over. And only now they're releasing this publicly. We held this back so as not to embarrass the South African government during the G20. And instead, we get assaulted and our president's ridiculed by President Ramaphosa. And this is another example how the US has been very restrained when it comes to this relationship with South Africa. This is something that could have broken when Biden was still President. This is something that could have broken any time last year when after Ramaphosa came at the White House, Donald Trump could have embarrassed Ramaphosa by saying, what about this? We've intercepted this stuff and they could have shown photographs of the equipment and screenshots. They didn't do any of that. They didn't do any of that. Frankly, Chris, I'm sick and tired of the bellyaching about how the United States aggressed towards South Africa when the restraint has been beyond the pale. The things that the government of South Africa has done… Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (12:22.51)…that I know about - and I'm no longer in intelligence community. I'm just a person that's a researcher in independent journals. The things that I know about because I'm objective will actually follow the lead that the South African public is ignoring and the political actions South Africa are denying would make the hair on the back of your neck crawl. If we knew what the intelligence community knew, there's a lot more here than everyone's talking about. And quite frankly, the South African government is doing South Africans no favour. They're harming farmers, they're harming automobile manufacturers, they're harming South Africans. And this is, I’m sorry, I'm going to use the word reprehensible. It's unfortunate. You don't have to like Washington, but when you do things against its interests, don't expect there won't be consequences. And there are probably more consequences coming soon. Chris Steyn (13:01.668)Now Chris, if you were president of South Africa, would you move to repair your relationship with the US or would you dig in your heels? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (13:11.79)Well, it depends. If I suddenly became the president of South Africa today, I would allow the exercise to continue. I mean, there's no reason to insult the Iranians intentionally, let them finish the exercise and then let the Chinese and Russians, but that would be the last time we do that. There is no BRICS military agreement. Calling this a BRICS exercise is a joke. There's no such thing as a BRICS military. There's no defense sharing, no defense agreement. There's not even status force agreement between any of these countries to my knowledge where troops can go and train as such. Maybe they've made an ad hoc one for this exercise. For my first step would be to let that go. My next step would be yes, to repair the damage. I would stop attacking the United States and I would stop taking public positions that harm its interests. Now that costs South Africa nothing. To simply stop attacking United States cost them zero rand, nothing. It doesn't hurt you. It doesn't even hurt you in the eyes of your friends in Moscow or Beijing. Unless you're a proxy for them and you're executing their foreign policy. Now that's a whole different story. We don't know that, but if that's the case, then it does put you in a bind. Because if they're expecting you in Tehran to say and do these things, like file a case against Israel and the ICJ, and you don't do it, you might be in a bind. But if you look at the trade between Russia and South Africa, it's virtually nothing, almost not. It's a rounding error, if that. China and South Africa is significant. It's the largest trading partner, but very little benfication. Most of its raw materials being shipped to China where they process the things, and then they send you back industrial goods, which gives you a serious negative trade balance, which is not something South Africa can afford. Whereas with the US and European Union, the U.S. anyway, you have a surplus and you're getting benefit of producing finished goods that really help everybody across the economic ladder in South Africa. So I would stop attacking the U.S. and go from there. And I would appoint an ambassador to the United States, one with some gravitas, one that actually can walk and chew gum at the same time without intentionally insulting the United States in private or in public. Look, I'm not trying to tell tell this other guy to suck eggs. And I'm not a fan or I'm not a detractor, but names like Tony Leon or Trevor Manuel come to mind. These are two competent, you know, I mean, they're both getting up there a little long in the tooth, but both of them are capable, especially Trevor, he's a bit older. But I mean, someone like that, that would actually take this stuff seriously. I would also designate a trade negotiator. I would send a trade representative to the United States to work on the tariffs and work them down. The South African government has reportedly over and over again said that they have sent a trade representative to, trade delegation to the US, but where's this trade delegation? They haven't done anything. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (15:32.302)All these other countries have negotiated with the US have lowered their tariffs by opening up their markets to US goods. Switzerland, which was very restrictive in what the US could send there, was imposed with a 39% tariff. While the government of South Africa and South Africa's legacy media were crying about how US was aggressive towards South Africa, woe is me, they're attacking South Africa, 30% tariff. While that was going on, Switzerland, a neutral country, a truly neutral country that we've gotten along with for centuries, was slapped with a 39% tariff. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (16:02.414)39%. And the reason for the tariffs is because these countries are not letting our products and services get in, or they put quotas, or they put excessively high tariffs. It's not fair. And we have allowed ourselves to become a debtor nation by letting the world strip us of our wealth. We hear about reparations, but we've been paying reparations for 40 years to the rest of the world, especially China and Africa, giving them preferential trade access while we get screwed over with our goods and services going in. So instead of seeing Monsanto and John Deere all over Africa and Verizon, you don't see that. You see Chinese companies or European companies all over because our companies can't compete there because the tariffs and the barriers. And for once we have a president said enough, enough. So Switzerland sent a delegation, a serious delegation, one of the senior people in their government over, and they negotiated the tariffs down from 39 to 19%. Still excessive in my mind. I think that's a bit much, but when they agree to a deal that gets it down to zero, then we can go to zero. But in the meantime, this is simply the United States saying, hey, Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (17:02.103)Enough is enough. Chris Steyn (17:01.26)With America seemingly moving away from a rules-based global order to might is right, could we be hearing a Delta Force helicopter hovering above the Union Buildings sometime soon? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (17:18.03)No, I think that's highly unlikely. There's no legitimate basis to do that. I will caution, however, that MTN is involved in five anti-terrorism lawsuits in the United States. Last year, they sought to have the cases dismissed, saying there was no merit. The courts, none of the courts in America agreed. The cases all continue going forward. And I should note that MTN is in league with Irancel in Iran. And Irancel is a known funder of terrorists in Afghanistan and in Iraq who killed U.S. service members. This is an issue that will not be taken lightly. My soldiers were killed because of resources funneled there by the Iranians on the behest or with the concurrence or with the even ignorance of the South Africans major telecom provider MTN. And who was the Chairman of MTN when this was going on? None other than Cyril Ramaphosa and that his special trade, his special ambassador to the U.S., which isn't the case, his envoy in Mcibisi Jonas. These are two people who are embroiled in this. And I would say that at some point, because Ramaphosa's time as president, ill be coming to an end, if I were him, I'd be very circumspect about the places I travel around the world in extradition treaties with the United States. That's not a threat, I'm just saying that if I were him, I would use good judgment. If I were in his shoes, I would make sure that I'm not embroiled in that lawsuit because those lawsuits are not going away in that serious situation. But back to the point, no, there's not going to be a SEAL team or Delta team jumping into the Union Buildings - and first off, he probably wouldn't be there. He'd be in his palatial mansion, so we'd have to go there. But they're not gonna snatch him. I don't think that's gonna happen. As far as the rules-based order, mean, Chris, I come back to that, because that's comical. The rules-based order, the South African grub that likes to run around, that's their favourite phrase now. For the past year, it's been sovereignty. We're a sovereign nation. You are, do what you want, but suffer what you must. The consequence of when you make transgressions that affect other people. We shouldn't just sit here like we've done for 40 years and take it. So the rules-based international order. Is it part of the rules-based international order to allow South African firms to… war material to sanctioned UN sanctioned warlords in Benghazi? No. But the South African government's allowed that to happen on multiple occasions. There's a rules-based international order being ignored. Is it part of the rules-based international order to host a designated terrorist group for a multinational naval exercise? No. Is it part of the rules-based order to recruit mercenaries to fight in legal war on behalf of Russia… Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (19:38.518)…in Ukraine? No. These are things the South African government has done or allowed to happen on its watch. Yet it talks about a rules-based or national order. And speaking of the rules-based or national order, Chris, China, communist China, never mind the human rights abuses, we won't get into that. Let's just talk about that International Court of Justice, the ANC is so fond of talking about. yes, the ICJ. Let's see, just a few years ago, the states in the South China Sea took China to the ICJ because the Chinese were claiming… Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (20:06.753)…thousands of miles from the shoreline that this was their their waters, which is ridiculous That's not…the one 12 miles is your boundary or 200 for exclusive economic zone is sometimes recognized by some people, but not thousands of miles away and they're attacking Filipino fishing boats. They're attacking Vietnamese boats They're attacking others with water cannons interdicting ramming these boats in the sea putting lives in jeopardy…the Chinese are doing this they built naval bases and air bases on top of fragile coral atolls in the South China Sea, but the ICJ determined that China’s ridiculous historical fantasy of the nine dash line is poppycock and that they have no jurisdiction there. They must withdraw. That's been several years ago now. That's the rules based international order. And the Chinese said, Voetsek, piss off. We don't care what your decisions and they're still out there interdicting and building bases and disrupting international maritime traffic. That is not part of the rules based international order. What is this rules based international order that the South African government has suddenly discovered by talking to some academic at UNISA or at Stellebosch? It's ridiculous..Read more:.(Ret.) Col Chris Wyatt - Ramaphosa continues to taunt Trump - despite Maduro raid.Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (21:06.039)The South African government doesn't adhere to rules based order. The Chinese don't adhere to rules based order, but they expect the United States to adhere to rules based order. It's just a catchphrase. Here's the bottom line, Chris. During his writing, the first actual genuine historian documenting history was Thucydides. And on the Peloponnesian war, in part of the Malian dialogue, when he talks about the poor Malians on little Island off the coast of what is Anatolia, Turkey today, people not bothering anybody, but defenseless, had no military to speak of. They were just there trading with Athens, with others, and the Athenians show up and they bombard them and they surround them and they starve them out and they seek a dialogue. The Malians seek diplomacy, a rules-based international order. They go to the Athenians and say, but why are you attacking us? We've done nothing to you. You have no grievances against us. We haven't stolen from you. We haven't undermined your trade. We trade freely with you. We haven't harmed you. We have an ally with your enemies. And the Athenian ambassador says, well, the strong will do what they want and the weak will suffer what they must. And the weak are the ones who scream about a rules-based international order while violating the very rules. So we could talk about rules-based international order all day long, Chris, but I don't think we have that kind of time today. Chris Steyn (22:13.414)No. Chris, many people have called for targeted sanctions on ANC leaders. What needs to happen for that to happen? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (22:25.292)Well, actually nothing needs to happen, Chris. That could be done right now at any time. We have something called the Magnitsky Act, which was put in place because of Russia's actions in the past, which gives the U.S. government the authority to take financial sanctions against foreign leaders who are complicit in human rights abuses, who are complicit in things that take actions against the United States, racketeering, all sorts of things. So the Magnitsky Act is there. President Trump at any time could have imposed it on anybody in South Africa who's in government. He could have done it. He hasn't done it. Now there are acts in or bills in Congress, in the House and in the Senate. One introduced in the House was introduced in February of 2024 by a Democrat and Republican saying that we need to review the strategic relationship with South Africa because it's not going well. South Africa is acting against it. Now that was during the Biden administration. That bill didn't really go anywhere. It still sits in Congress. It hasn't died. This year or this past year in 2025, year later, when Republicans and a new Republican president, Ronny Jackson, who used to be the personal physician of Barack Obama and then Donald Trump, because he was a naval officer, a doctor, a surgeon. He left the military, retired and ran for office and is a Texas congressman now. He introduced the same bill, but only with Republican backing this time. That bill made it to the floor in August of last year, but hasn't gone anywhere yet. You see the AGOA bill or the Renewable AGOA just was introduced, just came on the floor and it's already been looked at, whereas this one hasn't been looked at. Then you have in the Senate, you have Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana who has called South Africa our enemy recently, said South Africa is our enemy. When talking to… our trade representative, he said enemy. And he's a very powerful Senator from Louisiana and very vocal and colourful guy too. He introduced a bill, which is very similar, to review the relationship and to sanction the ANC and its leaders. And then we have yet another effort coming because the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, just this past week, the chairman of that committee, Senator Jim Risch of Idaho, said South Africa is our adversary. This is not a good look. There's already a legal mechanism to take action. There are new laws that are in the process. They have to go through committee and the one on the review of the relationship in the House has gone through committee and get to the floor. Then they get debated when the Speaker of the House decides to let them be debated. Otherwise, they sit there and they just kind of get rusty. So these things could come at any time. In the meantime, there's already action Trump could do. The things that could be done? Well, South African leaders could be blocked from the SWIFT banking system. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (24:44.961)That would be bad. Suddenly your Visa credit card doesn't work anymore. No more American Express. A little hard to travel around the world just on PayPal, but we can shut that down too. So that's one thing that can be done. There's a lot of things that can be done to South Africa's politicians. Travel bans, you know, it's quite a bit. The United States has been incredibly restrained in this situation, whereas it's been portrayed in the South African media as the US has been aggressive. It's utter nonsense. And why is this Because officials and fake legacy media sound bad and want to continue to perpetrate the myth that they've created about white genocide. They're the ones saying white genocide all the time, not Trump. He's only talked about it when he was asked by a reporter. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (25:11.115)Legacy media in South Africa want to continue to perpetrate the myth that they've created about a white genocide. They're the ones saying white genocide all the time, not Trump. He's only talked about it when he was asked by a reporter, except on one occasion, I can recall when he actually addressed it because he'd had enough of it. So he brought the term up. But every other time it's been the media, he's been responding to it. And even in the White House last year, when he was asked the question directly by Annika Larson, asked the question last year, do you still believe there's a white genocide in South Africa? Donald Trump said, I'm not convinced of that. So the media create this and South African politicians created. Look, it's unfortunate that the South African leadership wants to create a crisis with the United States, which has no interest in a crisis with South Africa. It's not that important to the United States. We have other fish to fry, apparently not the least of which are Greenland at the moment. So let's move on. Chris Steyn (25:57.196)Chris, meanwhile, the African National Congress is bleeding support. What constellation of parties do you think could replace it? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (26:09.422)Oh my gosh, Chris, let me put on my Siener van Rensburg hat here because man, our Nostrodamus hat, because man, who's going to predict this? Look, I was very bold in November of 2021 within a week of the municipal elections. And I predicted that the national elections that follow the ANC would get between 38 and 42%. And I kind of hit that on the money, didn't I? It was 40%. Now the truth changed. Some things improved, load shedding got reduced. And so that helped the ANC. MK came along, that hurt the ANC. But because the facts still kept that range, I predicted that…. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (26:39.571)I have no idea what I'm going to predict for this because you're right, the ANC is shedding support like viral particles just falling off of them everywhere. It's insane. You know, the ANC went to Pilansberg and had their 114th birthday celebration. They couldn't attract flies. The stadium was three quarters empty. They couldn't attract flies. I mean, you could stand them out in the sun and they can't attract flies. It's embarrassing. You know, in the worst of times, in the worst of heat, in a previous stadium, they always have full stadiums, but they either don't have the money to bring suckers in to sit there and suffer in the heat or the reason they picked it there is because it was remote. There's only one major way in. Whereas Royal Bafokeng Stadium, Northwest, located west of Rustenburg. I've been there for the FIFA World Cup. It's a lovely stadium, seats about 40,000 if I remember correctly, and it has multiple roads of entry, two from the northwest, from the northeast, from the east out of Rustenburg, from the south from the motorway, lots of ways to get in, lots of parking, no traffic jams, but they didn't hold it there. And my suspicion is they held it in Pilansburg in a remote location because it was a tiny stadium with only 20,000 seats. And if you're well, we can fill the seats. We won't be embarrassed, but they couldn't fill the seats. They couldn't fill the seats. So what happens for the next elections? Chris, this is a tough one. They can't draw flies. What are they going to do? Even support in Northwest is beginning to crater. You can see that here. They couldn't even bus people in from Northwest to come. The service delivery, the governance failures, the endless corruption cases, South Africans seem to be waking up. Now the question is, where do they go? In KZN, a lot of them have gone to MK. But MK is a joke. It's not a real party. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (28:06.102)It's a vanity project. It's an absolute vanity project. When Jacob Zuma is off the stage, will that party even survive? I mean, his daughter had to withdraw because the embarrassing mercenary nonsense she was involved in. And every week they fire someone and hire someone else new. You know, who's in charge of that party? It's not a real party. And if they govern, it'll just be more chaos. But I don't think that matters to lot of voters. They don't see that….They have affinity for Zuma. And that's what they see. And also, you know, the illegitimate appropriation of the vaulted, in the eyes of many South Africans, but not in my eyes, of the liberation movement, Umkhonto weSizwe, the Spear of the Nation. People see that and they attach that to liberation struggle. And so all of that plays in MK's favour. But I don't think MK will do any better than 18 or 20% best case nationwide. That's my expectation. And that'll be driven primarily by KZN and Gauteng, which have the major Zulu populations. But we can't ignore MK. They've won council seats in the Western Cape. That was a bit of a shock for some folks. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (29:03.513)So we'll see what happens there. The Patriotic Alliance, despite some of the silly things that Gayton McKenzie says, seems to be on the rise, particularly in Coloured communities, but not exclusively. And so they'll do better. The Freedom Front Plus is gonna get a lot of people who are leaving the Democratic Alliance. The Democratic Alliance is a dumpster fire that can't be put out. It's an absolute dumpster fire. It's embarrassing. I'm gonna get a milk carton and ask where Helen Zille is at, because her presence is missing, in search of, like missing children or missing. The one true calm, rational, seasoned voice in all this mess is Helen Zille. And publicly, she's quiet. Maybe that's necessary to get control of this. But the embarrassment of John Steenhuisen's role as Agriculture Minister with the spread of Foot and Mouth disease, virtually no action taken by this government until well over a year afterwards. And arguably, as Athol Trollilp said in an interview he just did, I think with Alec Hogg, I think he did an interview or maybe it was somewhere else. He did an interview, I listened to that, and he talked about, this is really going on since 2021. And he's correct, it has. But I did really spend a lot of time reporting on it. I mentioned the outbreaks that were a little here, a little there. But now we have basically, you know, two thirds of the nation are under foot and mouth. It's a disaster because it wasn't controlled. It wasn't controlled because they allow people who steal cattle to take them across ground and they cross and they spread the stuff and lots of others. And what is the response from the Agriculture Ministry to blame the farmers? Well, they begged him for help in December of 2024. When I asked to interview him in April of 2025 and May of 2025 before it was spread across the nation, he was silent and the government was largely silenced. It was the press that reported on it, but not not Agriculture Minister. And beyond that, this whole spat with his credit card, you know, look, a man who is 48 years old, who has no assets to his name. What has he done for 30 years with his assets? What has he accrued? Nothing. He lives off a two point six million Rand or thereabouts salary or two point three million, whatever it is. That's what's publicly disclosed because he's a minister, not just a Member of Parliament. And on top of that, the guy can't pay an eight thousand dollar credit card bill. I mean, that's insane. He had a court judgment against him. Then the embarrassment of the internal credit card being suspended. Then the Democratic Alliance with yet another internal investigation that begs credibility. Oh, he's not guilty of anything. Well, he's guilty of bringing the party disrepute because the man can't pay his credit card bill. It wasn't like he missed a payment. They took him to court to get a settlement. This is embarrassing. This is the man that's supposed to be responsible for a party that is fiscally responsible for the country. Look, I'm not trying to attack John Steehuisen. I'm just saying that the DA is a dumpster fire. This Dion George and Willie Aucamp… Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (31:25.25)what they did to Emma Powell and Andrew Whitfield and Renaldo Gouws. There's no consistency in this party. It looks to be like an old boys club, except we don't know who the old boys are. And the one resolute, rational, smart, intelligent politician who has the answers in this, who can put her foot down, is busy running for city council seat on a proportional seat. That's what, that's, that, I mean, that's your strongest person. You're going to put on the city council, Jo’burg, which is a Poisoned Chalice. Who wants to control Jo’burg? It's going to implode. Johannesburg needs to be divided into multiple cities because it can't manage itself. No one shows the ability to manage it. Anyway, so yeah, what party is going to take over? Well, Freedome Front Plus could do a lot better because a lot of people are going to go from the DA to the Freedom Front Front Plus. The smaller parties may do well, but I don't see a new party on the horizon that's going to come up. So what I expect to happen, and this is the best I can do for prediction after this long discussion about this, Chris, the best I can do for prediction on this. I had to get all that out there just so people don’t come back. Well, what about this? What about that?.Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (32:21.999)The best I can predict right now is we're going to see hung municipalities across the country and we're going to see…We’re going to have a mess. You're going to have a situation like you have in KZN, it's provincial level, where a party with one seat, one seat demands all these jobs. If they don't get it, then they cause the government to collapse. And this is a weakness of your so-called democracy in South Africa. I say so-called because the people don't select the leaders, the parties do. So they have no say whether Ramaphosa is President. That's up to Parliament. They have no say who the provincial legislators, they have no say who the mayor of Nelson Mandela Bay is because of the people of Nelson Mandela Bay had to say who the mayor is. It would have been Athol Trollip. It would have stayed Athol Trollip because under the DA under Athol Trollip that city turned around on a dime. The dumpster fire that was Nelson Mandela Bay improved overnight for everybody, black, white and brown. And the residents knew that and they supported Athol Trollip. But the EFF stabbed the coalition in the back and caused a collapse. So I expect to see disaster in the governing coalitions around the country. That's what I expect to see as a result of this. It's going to be a mess because it's obvious that most of these politicians, not all, most of them are in it for the things I said most politicians are in it for, for self-enrichment, self-aggrandisement, and creative and political power, not for the people. They're not there for the people. If they're there for the people, this nonsense would stop. You wouldn't have this idiotic stuff going on at Joburg Council we see every time they have a session where people get up and they want to play out their ambitions about Palestine in a municipal council meeting in Johannesburg. Why in the world is that even a topic of discussion? Why are you renaming streets in Johannesburg after a terrorist who killed people and is responsible for the suffering of many people and you're elevating her? Shouldn't you be focused on electricity, rubbish removal, policing, street repair, water, natural gas? Instead of you having Diepsloot, that's why we renamed the street Diepsloot when it blew up. Instead of having nonsense like that happen because of your failed governance, maybe you should focus on governance instead of international politics. So I anticipate that no party will move up. If you ask right now, ANC 20 to 25% nationwide on average. DA 18 to 22%, the MK party 18 to 20%, EFF 6 to 9 % if they're lucky the way things are going. the Freedom Front Plus might jump up to about 7 or 8 % if they're super lucky, but probably around 5%. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (34:42.864)And that's a bold prediction. By the way. I don't really have any data to support that. It's anecdotal. It's tough. There isn't data out there. And then the IFP will probably do a little bit better in KZN, but across the country that could do much better. And that's kind of what I see. These other parties, these vanity projects like BOSA and Rise Msanzi, they're going nowhere. They're not adding anything. So you're going to have municipalities that are hung, unfortunately. And the DA will lose more municipalities than Western Cape. Chris Steyn (35:11.244)Chris, you are in touch with many refugees from South Africa. And when we spoke privately the other day, you pointed out some misconceptions about the programme to me. Would you like to repeat that our viewers please. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (35:27.695)Sure Chris we chat every now and then, so I don't recall which ones, but let me cover a few and see if I hit the mark. One of them is that this programme, according to Ronald Lamola, he said this on CNN, he said this on other platforms, he claims that the programme is open only to Afrikaners and therefore it's a White Supremacy project to replace the population of America. Okay, first off, if anyone thinks that even if all 2.8 million Afrikaners came to America, it was gonna change the racial demographics of this country, you really are not good at mathematics and you don't understand population projection. I, on the other hand, Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (35:57.744)have postgraduate work in population. And and community and regional development. So I can talk authoritatively to that. Trust me, if every Afrikaner came to South Africa, it wouldn't change where the United States is at. The United States is where it's at because a bunch of old white men in 1960s decided we should let the rest of the world come in our country. And this is what we have today, right or wrong. So the misconceptions, it's not for Afrikaners. Ronald Lamola is lying to the world. The programme, stated since the 10th of February on the US Embassy website, za.usmbc.gov, you don't have to believe me, I'll give you the receipts, go there, za.usmbc.gov, clearly states that the programme is for Afrikaners and racial minorities. And there's other qualifications, so racial minorities. And I can also tell you that this nonsense, because Trump mentioned farmers and the farming community and land, they latched onto that. All the media in South Africa and all the wannabe YouTube creators are out there as well: it’s for farmers. It's white. It's racist. Well, it's not for farmers. It's not for Afrikaners. It's not for the people claiming it is. It's for Afrikaners and racial minorities. And I can confirm to you unequivocally with no doubt because I've interviewed, I've met, I've sat down, I've coffee, I've had dinner with black South Africans who come into the programme. Yes, black South Africans come to programme. I interviewed a family who have adopted two black children and they broke all the lies about the program. Stoltz family came over here, they're not dirt poor, they're not rich, but they're not dirt poor. So that broke the argument that only toothless, uneducated, Afrikaners would come over. They also have one of the family members who has another passport. The husband has a passport from a European country, so he has a safe haven to go to, which means he was ineligible for refugee programme, but the wife was eligible because she met the criteria and we don't break families up…therefore she applied, the family came over. They also have two black children, so black folks came over. And they have two adopted black children. So the argument that you can't bring adopted children is nonsense. And one of their children is autistic. So the argument the Americans will only take the fit young people that will fix their farms is utter poppycock. So these are some of the myths about the program. And also a myth about the programme is that it's all about white supremacy, which is what Ronald Lamola is saying. That's the most ludicrous, ridiculous, idiotic thing that anyone could say, but it's all part of a narrative…. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (38:10.191)to undermine legitimacy of this. When Ronald Lamola says that we look at the Geneva Convention, they don't meet the standard of being a refugee, that's absolute nonsense. They do meet the standard of refugee. These refugees, under the Immigration Nationality Act, which complies with the international norms for refugee status, meets those standards. These people meet the standard. Past persecution or fear of genuine future persecution. And they meet this standard. And to hear the leaders in South Africa's government continue to lie about this is distressing because people are turned off of this programme. Look, I'm not an advocate for anyone coming over here. A lot of people who don't bother watch my content or read the things that I publish, they see titles or they see this guy that looks like Santa Claus and go, oh, well, he must be a White Supremacist. And so he's trying to take all the white farmers out. No, I'm not telling any South Africans to come over here. I'm heartbroken that any South African would want to leave South Africa. Minus the idiotic political nonsense that's going on, it's one of the most amazing places in the world with some of the most amazing people. …It’s a shame to see anybody have to feel the need to leave. I'm not advocating for that. I'm also not lying to people. I'm telling the truth about this programme. It is not for farmers. It is not for Afrikaners. It's not for white people. Yes, the Trump administration has prioritised Afrikaners and therefore many of the people coming over are Afrikaners, but not even half of them that I've seen are Afrikaners. About half of them are other things, mostly white English speakers, but also Indians are here, Coloureds are here and even some black South Africans. A black South African interracial marriage has been persecuted because of the interracial marriage. It's coming over and a couple others are coming over and I believe a couple are here, but I can't confirm that for sure. So the programmr is for South Africans and that's why the government South Africa wants to mislead the public because they don't want the world realising South Africans are leaving. It's easy to say the white racists who brought us Apartheid, they're the ones leaving because they're racist. They're going to join the racist Donald Trump, but that's nonsense. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (40:06.157)Utter nonsense. Almost all the people come to this programme, Chris, are younger than ANC governance. Younger. Or they were in their eight or 10 years old. There's almost nobody, only a handful of these people are over the age 50. There are some. There's an 88 year old Gogo who came over. She's here. The grandmother's over here. That's a refugee. The point here is that most of what the government is saying about this and almost everything the media is saying about it are complete lies. And that's why I continue to interview refugees. I've done about 25 refugee interviews. I have traveled around South Africa last year to talk about this programme. That's not without my purpose, it in my meet-and-greets, but I had 17 or 18 meet and greets, I think it was, over close to 2000 people, was 1800, 2000 people come to my meet and greets all over the country, including the big one…which had about 500 people. So I've done that here in the States. I've traveled to Alabama to speak to the … family who are refugees. I've traveled to Idaho to speak to the….families to speak, to refugees. And I've also have a big meet and greet in Texas, which has over 200 South African refugees now. That's on the 31st of January. I'll be traveling there. And then on Monday, I'm traveling to Rochester, New York to investigate some concerns about less than optimal support for refugees, whether it's true or not, who are South Africans. There's a cluster of South Africans up there. So I'll be going there. So there's no journalist on the planet who's gone these lengths to cover the story and cover it objectively. And that's what I've been doing. And I can tell you that it's disheartening to see people as dishonest about this programme Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (41:30.851)Just be honest about it. It's like when President Ramaphosa went to Bloomberg at the United Nations General Assembly right after, around the time he became president in 2018, and he told Bloomberg media, there are no farm murders in South Africa. President Trump's just uninformed. He's misinformed. There are no murders in South Africa. There are no farm murders. No white farmers being murdered. Excuse me, are you serious? Farmers get murdered all over the world. Even occasionally an American farmer gets murdered. You know, in a rural incident, something happens. To make such a claim is utter nonsense when we know that well over 3,000 white South Africans alone, farmers and their family members have been tortured and murdered on their farms in the past 30 years. So look, it's unfortunate. don't know. Did I hit on the things we talked about that were misconceptions? Chris Steyn (42:06.603)You did. Thank you, Chris. Lastly, how is President Donald Trump going to shock the world next?

The NdB Sunday Show: (Ret.) Col Chris Wyatt - SA: Iran & China, the DA “Dumpster Fire” & the next coalition government

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