In the latest NdB Sunday Show, gender activist and former president of the Pretoria Diplomatic Association, Simone Heradien, talks to Chris Steyn about The Grand - also known as the unofficial HQ of the Sandton Police - where suspended Deputy National Commissioner General Shadrack Sibiya was arrested on rape and sexual grooming charges. The Grand is also at the centre of an investigation into a former Sandton police station commander in relation to a photograph showing a stripper in what appears to be a police uniform. On the international relations front, Heradien explains why she thinks President Cyril Ramaphosa’s appointment of Roelf Meyer’s performance was a great diplomatic move, but also warns of implications for South Africa - and the president personally - from the “terror-funding” case against MTN that has now moved to the discovery phase in the US. Heradien, once a dedicated African National Congress (ANC) activist - who worked for Willie Hofmeyer - says she now finds herself in “political wilderness” and while “the heart is still there”, she cannot be voting for “ what they've brought the country to”. This as a warrant of arrest was issued - but stayed - for former Defence Minister Nosisiwe Mapisa-Nqakula - after she failed to make another appearance at her corruption trial..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.122)Welcome to the NdB Sunday show with me, Chris Steyn, and gender activist and a former president of the Pretoria Diplomatic Association, Simone Heradien. Welcome, Simone.Simone Heradien (00:14.272)Thank you, Chris. It's great to be on board.Chris Steyn (00:18.222)Haven't seen you for such a long time. Let us start.Simone Heradien (00:21.723)Absolutely. It's too longSimone Heradien (00:27.466)Go ahead.Chris Steyn (00:30.626)Let us start with The Grand. What a name for a strip joint. That was the place where suspended Deputy National Commissioner General Shadrack Sabiya was arrested. And that is also the place known as the unofficial HQ of the Sandton Police.Simone Heradien (00:33.108)Yeah.Simone Heradien (00:50.619)Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I read where Shadrack’s attorney said that he had approached the NPA to find out what this arrest was all about because he didn't want to have a big media circus and here we're sitting with a big media circus.Chris Steyn (01:13.902)Well, it's like a traveling circus. And now a former station commander, Sandton station commander, is being investigated in relation to a photograph showing a stripper in what appears to be a police uniform, as well as photos of him alongside dancers apparently from the not-aptly-named The Grand.Simone Heradien (01:40.952)Yes, this is correct. I believe he's now the acting district commissioner of Johannesburg, and formerly the Commander of the Sandton police station. And I think for me personally, you know, it's it's it's disconcerting that our cops are blowing off steam - no well, pun intended actually, blowing off steam at a strip club nicknamed the Sandton HQ on the Rivonia Strip. I mean, it's a strip that I used to frequent a lot when I used to live in Pretoria, but obviously not the strip club - and allegedly this lady that's working in the strip club had been blackmailing him about the photos that she had in his uniform. So now obviously it's now out in the open. She allegedly probably wants to get into the news and back onto the circus as well. But yeah, I think that as a country we need to introspect. I do understand that being a police officer is a very stressful job. People need to re release their stress. You know, and the counteract by the Bishop Maumela that this is not a strip club, it's a restaurant. I mean, I've been onto the website and the references to this Grand club is a gentleman's club, actually. And we know what a gentleman's club is all about, and it talks about girls dancing, erotic dancing, so you've got private cubicles that you can go to. So it's definitely a strip club cum restaurant, you know? So yeah.Chris Steyn (03:19.819)With bedroom facilities, probably. Somebody mentioned that.Simone Heradien (03:23.43)Absolutely. That is what the write up says. It's got these private facilities and you've got your exotic dancers and you can either order your meal in the public area or you can order your meal - and whatever goes with the meal - you can order that in the private section. So I mean the denial of them that it's not a strip club… we want to call it a gentleman's club to sound grand. But it definitely is a strip club. Absolutely.Chris Steyn (03:58.447)And allegedly, General Sabiya does not only have a thing for young girls, but he also favoured the Russian dancers. Apparently three of them.Simone Heradien (04:08.506)Yeah…what what i find surprising of this of this aspect of going to the strip club and allegedly allegedly raping raping an eighteen year old and allegedly grooming a 16 year old that obviously we refer to as pseudonyms because their names cannot be released at this moment because it's only the bail application hearing… Watching the bail application hearing you'd actually thought that you're watching an actual trial of him already..and what I think is wrong in our country is that his parents are supporting him, his daughter's supporting him. I would hate to know what his wife would be feeling like. And I think in all of these situations we as women should not be supporting these men, even if they are husbands or boyfriends or fathers, because that to me is what's driving part of gender-based violence in South Africa.We've seen it explode in the news, although we're not going to talk much about it in this podcast, but we saw it exploding in the news with these bodies found all over Ekurhuleni, and we know that up to 15 bodies of women are found in South Africa per day. That's besides the 40 odd bodies of men. So here, I suppose the Bishop wants to offer spiritual support. Where was the spiritual support and the moral support? Now I'm not judging the person morally on the basis of religion, but morally on the basis of humanity. You just don't ply an 18 and a 16-year-old with alcohol in order to have sex with them. If it's consensual sex, it has to be negotiated between the two parties without having substances in your head that could imperil that negotiation.Chris Steyn (06:08.44)Well, until 1995, we did have a death penalty for aggravated rape and many women would like to see that brought back, Simone.Simone Heradien (06:17.703)Yeah, I totally understand the anger and the frustration. I do not subscribe to the death penalty. I think it's inhumane. I think about 114 countries across the world have completely abolished it. About 23 have placed a moratorium on it. And we've seen in the State of Tennessee with the botched execution of Christina Pike that it's now even been placed on moratorium by the governor of the state of Tennessee until the end of the year, until this botched execution is being investigated. And we had the ANC Women's League mooting a possible referendum. And according to our Constitution, I don't think it's going to pass muster there, because it infringes on the right to life, which is very fundamental in our Constitution. And even if we have a two-thirds majority voting for the Constitution to be amended to allow the death penalty, it's not gonna pass Constitutional Court validation because the Constitutional Court would have to look at whether it interferes with other aspects of our Constitution, especially with Section One. And Section One, if that needs to change, requires 75% of parliament. I don't think it's ever going to happen. But we need to actually steer the conversation into something more not vengeful. I feel that the death the death penalty is seeking for revenge…but for justice, incarceration with no right to parole for murderers and rapist, especially when it comes to the heinous rapist and the gang rape that we've seen right here in South Africa and abroad with the University of Cornell case being brought now being brought back into the media with the 2024 rape of what they call Jane Doe by by seven students. So let's look at justice, and also I think we need to look at restorative justice especially for…I do not call it petty crimes because for me a crime is a crime - people should serve their 30-year sentences. So I'm not advocating for murderers you know to walk free - and that on the 27th of April when we have prisoners set free…Simone Heradien (08:45.12)…we've really got to look at which prisoners we are setting free. We shouldn't be setting free murders and rapists. But the death penalty. I think those advocates must put more energy into seeing that our justice systems are strengthened. I believe there's a backlog of 150,000 or between 75,000 to 150,000 on DNA testing alone. We can't have backlogs like that in South Africa because those are rape victims that eventually give up and they just don't trust the justice systems. So let's look at strengthening our justice system and our police system. Chris?Chris Steyn (09:22.816)Simone, as a former president of the Pretoria Diplomatic Association, I'd love to hear what you make of Ambassador Roelf Meyer’s performance or non-performance in the States.Simone Heradien (09:34.372)Interesting question, Chris. I watched this documentary about 20 minutes ago. I tuned in a bit late. It was on BBC and last week. And him and Cyril…the two of them are like that because they go a long way together. Roelf Meyer was the chief negotiator for the Apartheid government at the time. And President Cyril Ramaphosa was the chief negotiator for the ANC at the time to bring peace in our country. So they go a long way. And then President Ramaphosa is on record, he was interviewed, I think, just about a week or two ago, as to why he chose Ambassador Rulf Mayer to be his representative. And he stressed that Meyr is representing him, you know, as the government or as the president of South Africa, because that's what all ambassadors and high commissioners do. There are obviously those who are not so happy about him representing, but the ANC also brought out a statement respecting and welcoming his representation as ambassador. I think that Cyril personally, I think Cyril made a wise choice, maybe not the choice that I want, because I would have loved Cyril to stand behind his speech that he made when Trump - I call Trump the Orange Felon - when the Orange Felon issued this executive order against us, you know, that we will not be bullied. So I would have loved for Cyril to go that route, we will not be bullied. But then having been president of the Pretoria Diplomatic Association, I know what diplomacy was all about. So with Ibrahim Rasool being declared persona non graca, and Mcebisi Jonas…that was the special envoy in the interim, I personally think that the Trump administration wants to see people that they can relate to - and I'm also specifically talking about the colour of the skin of the person. So I think it was a great diplomatic move by President Ramaphosa, but that's not the we-will-not-be-bullied move that I would like to see. And for example, you've we've gotSimone Heradien (11:54.443)The ambassador of the United States, Bozell, I call him Bozo. You know, he's been demarched three times, and he can blabber on about South Africa and criticize us, which is not within the ambit of what an ambassador or high commission is supposed to do. And Roelf Meyer is very, very cautious as to what he's saying about the President of the United States. But he has stressed that he would like a one-on-one with the Orange Felon to discuss the misconception of the so called white genocide happening in South Africa, which he refutes as an Africaner..Chris Steyn (12:31.502)Still in the United States, Simone, I see the anti-terrorism cases against MTN is reaching or has reached the discovery stage.Simone Heradien (12:43.094)Yes, Chris, this is an interesting case. It's been going on for I think since 2018, if I'm not mistaken, about five, five, six years. MTN launched an application in South Africa for the case not to go ahead. The South African court said this can actually go ahead in the USA. And there are six lawsuits, if I'm not mistaken, that's filed against MTN. And these are American citizens who allege that MTN was paying protection money for the cell towers operated in countries like Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, operated by the local telecommunications cell phone operators. And they alleged that because MTN paid an alleged protection fee for these cell towers, MTN was actually funding terrorism.So this has now gone into what is called in the US the discovery phase. It's not gone into trial yet, and it may not go to trial because the two parties or the six parties may try to settle this out of court. And I think this is what MTN wants because MTN has been losing all of their cases to the courts of the US and in South Africa so far. And that is why it's gone so far. But interesting, Chris, is that this could have implications for South Africa. Because in that executive order, I think there were five conditions that Trump stated in the executive order. And one of those are these so-called allegations that we are supporting Iran and countries like the former Syria because we're supporting them, we're actually supporting terrorism. Now, during that period that MTN allegedly paid these cell phone operators, Cyril Ramaphosa was president of the MTN board.And if this escalates into a fully blown court case - and I'm surprised that the Orange Felon - hasn't actually caught up on this, you know, to throw more fire on the oil at South Africa, even though its companies are supposedly sponsoring terrorism. So I think this is sort of bubbling under, but I think it's going to explode as something to watch within the next few years. Chris Steyn (15:10.478)Simone a long, long time ago - I'm not suggesting you're old - you were a dedicated activist, African National Congress activist, and I think you started your working life in the office of Willie Hofmeyer at Social Development, am I right?Simone Heradien (15:26.723)That's correct. I joined the ANC circuit - when it was unbanned….Worked in the in the constituency of Strandfontein, where I lived at the time. Then I moved to Claremont. And then I served in the executive structure of Claremont, which was changed to the Gaby Shapiro branch. And we obviously all know who Gaby Shapiro is. And Willie Hofmeyer was then constituency officer of the Claremont region. So we don't have MPs that have constituencies, but in those years they sort of gave them this constituency. And then I worked for Willie Hofmeyer as his constituency officer based in Claremont. And to me, one of the highlights of that constituency officer was working in close collaboration with the coordinated action for street people. And you know, street people were coming to the fore, or the fact that we need to treat them humanely were coming to the fore. And I recall at the stage a lot of Capetonians will probably know this, but the Big Issue, it's sold almost on every street corner in the CBD. And at that stage, we're discussing bringing it into South Africa. It wasn't in South Africa yet. So it was, and I worked with politicians like Sue van der Merwe, Kader Asmal, Louise Asmal, at the constituency office of Mowbray as well. Their house was basically within stones throwing distance. So we used to have meetings there.I long for the days of the old ANC when we had that liberation and we wanted this great country and 30 years later we're unfortunately sitting with an ANC that's allegedly corrupt. Well there have been avenues where they've proven to be corrupt and you know not applying the Constitution correctly. There's been findings, especially during the Zuma years, there's been findings about not utilising the constitution correctly. So unfortunately, my faith in the ANC has dwindled, especially since the Arms Scandal in 2000 with former President Thabo Mbeki - and I'm in the political wilderness at the moment. I think I'm just gonna do any meany miny mo when it comes to elections and see where my pen drops.Simone Heradien (17:44.328)But I still believe in the fundamental values of the ANC, you know, the Freedom Charter, the Constitution that we fought for. Yeah. So the heart is still there, but I cannot be voting for these alleged corruption and what they've brought the country to.Chris Steyn (18:05.472)And now we've seen a warrant of arrest issued - but stayed - for the former Speaker of Parliament in a corruption trial.Simone Heradien (18:11.086)Yeah, on corruption charges. Absolutely, you know that that's interesting. I I did not delve into why it was stayed, but allegedly she felt ill. And having watched some of the hearings, she does seem to be…I think she's she she comes across as highly stressed, and probably it would be highly stressed for a former defense minister to be charged with corruption.And if you look at the change in her misdemeanor when she speaks to the judge, and she's quite remorseful and she's quite you know holding her hands like that, you know, as if to plea. And this juxtaposition of this bravado when she was the defense minister. As a person to person and as a woman, I must say that I do feel for her as far as the stress is concerned. But if she committed that corruption, she's got to pay the price. I mean, we all have to, we all have to pay the price for our misdemeanors and for our corruption and for our crimes, like everyone in South Africa should. Chris?Chris Steyn (19:29.87)I think the stay has to do with a medical certificate, she's not well. I've also seen her close to breaking down in contrast with General Sabiya whose facial expressions have shown no remorse, only arrogance.Simone Heradien (19:48.606)Yeah, I was, you know, I was thinking that that lip thing that he was doing, maybe practicing what he was doing at the strip club, you know, to those 16-year-olds because these facial gestures are very funny. And apparently he made a slitting gesture as well. So yeah, and you know he's sitting there yawning and is acting as if he's totally disinterested. It's probably hubris, you know. I was former, well not former, he's still within the police force with his disciplinary hearing probably going ahead tomorrow, possibly in prison- and we will see what the outcome is. But yeah, there seems to be no remorse on his face at all.Chris Steyn (20:29.279)He was sitting there at one stage flicking his tongue like a reptile. I could not understand why he was doing that.Simone Heradien (20:34.237)Well my interpretation was I'm coming to you know to continue to do what I've been doing in the strip strip club with my tongue to the girls. That's my interpretation.Chris Steyn (20:37.58)Maybe it was a message to somebody.Chris Steyn (20:53.582)Thank you. That was gender activist and former president of Pretoria Diplomatic Association, Simone Heredien speaking to me, Chris Steyn, on the NdB Sunday show. Thank you, Simone.Simone Heradien (21:06.439)Thank you very much, Chris..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.