Listen here.In this edition of the NdB Sunday Show, Chris Steyn and Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen, talk about the fall of Investigations Directorate Against Organised Crime (IDAC) Chief Andrea Johnson - whom Economic Freedom (EFF) Fighter CIC Julius Malema likened to the late Winnie Mandela - and who was tipped to be a future National Director of Public Prosecutions; as well as the fall of three other tipped for the highest law enforcement and political control positions in South Africa: former Police Minister Senzo Mchunu as a possible future African National Congress (ANC) President; suspended General Shadrack Sibiya as possibly the next National Police Commissioner, and suspended General Feroz Khan with his eye on the top job at Crime Intelligence (CI). Deal hails the Madlanga Commissioners who ask questions “in a way that actually leads deceitful people into their own traps”. Meanwhile, Deal warns that township economies have been hard hit by the flight of foreigners at a time when the hungriest section of the population is awash with illegal guns. “...we are sitting with an enormous number of unemployed young men with no money, no job, and literally no hope for the future. And it could still take just one spark to see the equivalent of an Arab Spring in this country.” He describes just how vulnerable South Africans have become while the “police itself, on a national and often a provincial level, is powerless and directionless”..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:00.847)Welcome to the NdB Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn and Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen. Welcome Jonathan.Jonathan Deal (00:10.286)Thank you very much, Chris. I'd actually just like to say to you at the beginning that I watched many, many Sunday Shows with you and Neil De Beer. And I have this poignant memory of him leaning forward into the camera as he used to do, and say, “You know, Chris”. And I think the Sunday Show is a very special thing. I don't think that there is anybody that can walk in his footsteps on it, but I look forward to providing an interesting response for your viewers today.Chris Steyn (00:41.883)Thank you, Jonathan. The viewers do miss Neil very, very much. As do I. I think he would have had so much to say about the increasingly thin line that has emerged between political power and law enforcement control. Let's talk about that. PWith all the testimony that has been heard at the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry, people say this has prevented a possible scenario where suspended or on special leave, Minister Senzo Mchunu would have become African National Congress President and President of the country, where General Shadrack Seibiya would have become National Police Commissioner, where General Feroz Khan would have become Crime Intelligence Chief, and where Andrea Johnson would have become the National Director of Public Prosecutions. What do you make of that scenario? Is it even realistic to you?Jonathan Deal (01:51.598)Well, I think that it is definitely a speculative scenario, Chris, but what is intriguing is actually that serious commentators can even construct such a scenario and have it sound plausible. I think that's the real story. And you mentioned earlier, you know, how thin the firewall has become between political power and the control of law enforcement in this country. And there's another player that's not listed in that scenario at the moment and somebody who seems to have been a common denominator amongst at least three of those people, Kahn, Johnson and Sibiya, and that is Julius Malema.And interestingly, certainly reports in the media indicate that Malema has been linked to each of those personalities in different ways. I think, in fact, even at the Parliamentary Ad Hoc Committee, applauding Johnson's testimony, likening the woman to Winnie Mandela, of course, a testimony that has now subsequently been disproved by Johnson's own testimony in front of the Madlanga Commission.Chris Steyn (03:05.551)Well, the positions of those people have changed drastically over the past year. Let's take them one by one, starting with Mr. Mchunu.Jonathan Deal (03:15.373)Well, I think it's accurate to say that he's been criminally exonerated by the Ad Hoc Committee and he's back on the ANC's NEC campaigning for 2027. Although on the face of it, he may be entitled to pursue political office, given the fact that he has been exonerated, I think that the whole expose of that around General Mkhwanazi’s media conference and the fallout from that has left a bit of a bad taste in the public's mouths in terms of who was at that stage the top dog in the police. Sibiya still suspended. The 121 dockets and his disbanding of the Political Killings Task Team still remain unresolved.Khan of course a really intriguing figure. The social media has just exploded. I've been watching some of the videos in the last week or two. I noticed one video yesterday alone had nearly 200,000 views. So the public is certainly interested in that and he is facing his separate precious metal charges and of course he is central to the IDAC docket leak claims. And then of course, Johnson starting off her testimony by rushing off to hospital, which didn't impress the Madlanga Commission very much. And then on the 27th of July, resigning as head of IDAC rather than face a deeper inquiry. But of course, those independent probes will continue regardless.Chris Steyn (04:56.342)IDAC, ironically it stands for the Investigations Directorate Against Corruption. It has practically imploded with this testimony and some people are calling for it to be disbanded, Jonathan. What do you think?Jonathan Deal (05:10.381)Well, I think that if an institution can't stand on its merits, it can't do its job, and it is something that can be dispensed with, then I think it ought to be disbanded. Unless the government, and particularly the NEC, the leaders of the country, are able to appoint people that can actually manage this ethically, honestly, responsibly, and without any hint of corruption, then it ought to be disbanded. Something that I picked up in the news in the last day or two, very interestingly, is that I think Limpopo province has received a new commissioner, provincial commissioner. And he's a dyed in the wool policeman…very very encouraging to see actually for once a high level what is clearly a merit-based appointment. This is a man who has worn uniform his entire police career and he appears to be taking a very strong start. So maybe that could be the indicator of some change in the management of the police. We hope so.Chris Steyn (06:26.712)An overall countrywide of new provincial commissioners, indeed. Jonathan, let us look at where General Mkhwanazi stands today.Jonathan Deal (06:40.909)Well, I think that as far as I know that he is in charge of the initiative to control organised crime. And I don't think that that is necessarily what the political will was at the time. I think when he came out with that media conference…Can you believe that it's only a year ago? If you think about everything that we've heard, it feels like this thing has been going on for five years. My personal view is that he should be receiving the Order of Luthuli, nevermind initially being considered for some type of demotion or to be dismissed as was the mood at that time. He really is a national hero. I think he's a national asset.But he's looking after or in the focus on organised crime in the country and I think he's the right person for that. And he has been completely vindicated against all of his detractors since last year.Chris Steyn (07:44.634)Well the Madlanga Commissioners: what fine legal minds. I do suspect that every time they ask a question they already know the answer.Jonathan Deal (07:54.828)I've been thoroughly impressed with the questioning from the Madlanga Commission. It's like watching, if one goes to civil court, it's like watching the top advocates in the country busy with their craft. I've been really impressed with the way that the questions are asked, that the testimony is examined, that it is cross-examined and the questions are asked in a way that actually leads deceitful people into their own traps. It's really interesting to watch.Chris Steyn (08:31.33)And consequences that we have not seen from a previous commission like the Zondo Commission, for instance. While the Commission is still sitting, people are already getting arrested, people are resigning, people are taking other drastic measures, murders are committed to prevent people from testifying. People commit suicide.Jonathan Deal (08:40.258)Yeah, absolutely.Jonathan Deal (08:55.561)Absolutely. And I think that the public has become tired of commission after commission after commission with no results. I think the Zondo Commission was a billion rand in costs for South Africa, literally a room full of dockets ready to prosecute and nobody held accountable. And this time it seems to have teeth. You know, one can almost hear the cell phone lines buzzing between all of the people that are scurrying for cover after their corrupt activity. It must be an enormous worry for those in very high positions that know a lot in terms of their safety, because we've seen what happens at high level and amongst the corrupt few. In fact, I love that English saying, you know, there's no honour amongst thieves and when thieves fall out, they turn on each other.Chris Steyn (09:58.236)People so desperate not to go there that they would allegedly stage their own attempted assassinations orJonathan Deal (10:08.577)Yeah, absolutely. It's intriguing stuff. I think one could write a spy novel about it if it wasn't so serious.Chris Steyn (10:17.06)Well, the arrests are taking place, but how would you like to see it going forward now, apart fromproper prosecutions and proper accountability?Jonathan Deal (10:29.077)I think that Madlanga must run its course. Everything should be pursued to the nth degree. That the system and the public offices held should be purged of the corrupt.And that if this has to flow upstream, then it's necessary for it to flow upstream. And I'm quite fond of another English saying that says that a fish rots from the head down. And at this stage, one can understand silence amongst the country's leaders, perhaps if some of the stuff is sub judice. But I think there will come a time when the leaders of the country, of all political parties, need to step up to the plate and pin their colours to the mast, because many of them are very silent about this. I don't necessarily think that it is a time to be silent. But if that's their choice, that's fine. I just believe that if any of this fallout, this corrupt activity, these corrupt practices, this corruption in itself, needs to flow upstream, then it must flow upstream and the people upstream must also be held accountable. It's not just a case of letting the lower level minions be dealt with in the justice system.Chris Steyn (11:57.753)Mm, with people so compromised and contaminated, one wonders who really pulls the strings, Jonathan. Not everybody's n names have been exposed, especially not Mr. X.Jonathan Deal (12:13.695)I would love to, if I was bold enough today, I have my own ideas and I would love to name the names, but I think that the country has got a pretty good idea of who and on whose watch these corrupt practices have taken place. And I think that we have to leave that speculation there at the moment. It'll come out in due course.Chris Steyn (12:40.346)Jonathan, meanwhile, what have you seen to be the result of so many foreigners fleeing South Africa? What's the reality on the ground?Jonathan Deal (12:51.659)I think the reality on the ground is that politically and from a government point of view, there were two main thrusts. The one was the cleanup, so-called cleanup of unlawful or illegal aliens working in the country. And the other was managing the vigilantism that was arising for not the first time in South Africa either. So those were the two government initiatives. The bottom line is that on the ground, the foreigners have gone. The township economies are quiet and there's a complete lack of momentum. A lot of the money has collapsed. The locals who benefited from the stimulation of the foreigners in the local community, particularly in terms of renting out very high priced accommodation to them, have now got lots and lots of accommodation that is empty. Those foreigners, all, most of them were gainfully employed and they spent their money in the local economy. Taxi drivers are sitting without fares are from people who were not able to license and possess motor cars lawfully in this country. And I think that the situation will manifest in a further blow to the economy of the country and it will be felt first and most importantly in the townships where it is already being felt. And if that is the case, we are sitting with an enormous number of unemployed young men with no money, no job, and literally no hope for the future. And it could take still just one spark to see the equivalent of an Arab Spring in this country, as Frans Cronje warned on a number of occasions.Chris Steyn (14:58.264)We've heard that ninety nine percent of murders are committed with illegal firearms. So we have a situation of a hungry population awash in illegal firearms. Not a good recipe.Jonathan Deal (15:17.749)Absolutely not. And interestingly on that note, because of the work that I do with Safe Citizen, it's almost a fairly positive turnaround with some of the statistics that have been emerging from the State itself, which really shoots their whole initiative of disarming private citizens in the foot. I think they are reeling. In November last year, they were very, very bullish about the proposed amendments to the Firearms Control Act. And it was almost a fait accompli that it was going to be presented to Parliament. And I think that the ruling party expected it to be rubber stamped and to become a thing of beauty and a thing of reality by this time this year. Well, of course, that's not the case. And in my experience, and if I look at the profile of members that are joining Safe Citizen, many of them ordinary members of the public who are not necessarily firearm owners. People are becoming more and more concerned about personal safety and public safety and there is much less of a resistance even in the minds of unarmed people to the fact that lawfully armed citizens are actually something very useful and an asset to the country. Almost like the interesting scenario recently where the government leaned heavily on the commercial security industry and neighborhood watches for assistance in what they expected to be a possibly very volatile situation in the riots recently or almost riots, just like they did in 2021.Jonathan Deal (17:07.611)And that of course is in complete contradiction to the move of the government around the middle of last year where they floated the amendments to the security officers firearm regulations, which would have hobbled that industry. So on the one hand, they want to hobble the industry and remove the power of the commercial security industry, which is four to five times the size of SAPS. And on the other hand, we have the acting Minister of Police calling the security industry a force multiplier and a very valuable partner.Chris Steyn (17:39.918)Hm, yet they feel excluded from the latest police Reset Agenda.Jonathan Deal (17:47.362)Yeah, it's certainly true. There's a complete lack of strategy and leadership. And I think that those three things are circulating in that area. We are also dealing with a situation where there has been a move by the Quality Council for Trades and Occupations, which reports to the Department of Higher Education and Training to make significant changes to the quality assurance of firearm proficiency training. And on the face of it, it doesn't sound like something that the majority of South Africans ought to be concerned with, particularly if they don't possess firearms or they don't intend to possess firearms.But if the bottom falls out of that system, which has been managed by an organisation called the PFTC, Professional Firearm Trainers Council, for about 14 years, very professionally managed. If the bottom falls out of that system, it effectively will stop the flow of applications for competency to possess a firearm. And that may well, in a subtle way play into the hands of the government if they wanted to pursue the disarmament of private citizens. So Safe Citizen has got those three things that we are busy with, that we're watching over and that we're working at, and it all feeds into this whole scenario that we've discussed today.Chris Steyn (19:17.028)Jonathan as the founder of Safe Citizen, how unsafe have we as South Africans become?Jonathan Deal (19:25.485)Chris, I don't want to over-dramatize this, but I think that at this point in time, we have a police service that in isolated instances and where the men and women on the ground can manage is trying its absolute best to respond to the public, protect the public and look after them. They are hampered by a lack of resources. The police itself on a national and often a provincial level, is powerless and directionless. The specialized units that are operating between the justice system and the police and Crime Intelligence, organised crime issues have generally been very ineffective, even things like IDAC, and it has got an enormous effect on the ability of the police to really look after this structure, this scenario in South Africa. And until that gets sorted, we are very much vulnerable. There's a rise in crime. There's a lot of talk about Brazilian drug cartels coming in and operating around the country. And it's very worrying. I think that...people today are probably just getting on with their lives, trying to put food on the table. But a lot of them have it as a constant and intrinsic worry that they're not safe. Certainly...I don't go out into public. I won't make a trip to Cape Town from where I live unless I absolutely need to. You never know what you're going to meet in the public or on the road. It's like a lucky packet and you don't know...Jonathan Deal (21:25.739)…what the police will do if they can respond. And if the police that you're seeing on the roads are actually policemen and not people who have managed to dress themselves up as policemen. So it's an enormous worry for the public of South Africa. And I think that it's incumbent on the country and on the government to get control of it.We've got an opportunity later this year to start fixing the government. And there's another opportunity in 2029. If South Africans don't vote the right way or even if they do vote the right way, whatever happens they are going to get the government that they deserve.Chris Steyn (22:05.338)Indeed. Thank you. That was Jonathan Deal, the founder of Safe Citizen, speaking to Chris Steyn on BizNews. Thank you, Jonathan.Jonathan Deal (22:15.032)Thank you very much, Chris.