The NdB Sunday Show: (Ret.) Col Tollie Vreugdenburg - Cop who foiled SA’s “9/11 x 4” hails the courage of Mkhwanazi & Masemola

On today’s NdB Sunday Show, Chris Steyn speaks to the only police officer ever awarded the Silver Star for bravery twice. Colonel Tollie Vreugenburg, formerly of the Hawks, where he worked on Crimes Against the State and commanded Anti-Terrorism investigations, comes out strongly in support of generals Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi and Fannie Masemola. “Both of them are persons of high integrity and what they say and what they said in the commission as well as in front of Parliament is not new to me. I've experienced it myself…especially the latter parts of my career. And I take my hat off for them to come forward and come to the open. They are the only two currently that have enough courage to do that.” The Colonel reveals how, in 2015, political interference prevented him from arresting President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan. He shares his personal experience of the “hostile takeover” of the DPCI by a crony of former President Jacob Zuma. Meanwhile, amid fears for the life of General Mkhwanazi,” he warns: “…well, the guy that wants to take him out, good luck to you. That is a…highly highly trained combatant…he is…very capable of protecting himself.” The Colonel also talks about the raids on the homes of suspended Deputy Police Commissioner Shadrack Sibiya and President Cyril Ramaphosa’s nephew from a previous marriage. As for the African National Congress (ANC) trying to distance itself from Brian Mogotsi, one of the central characters in the saga, he says: “It's much too late. There will be a big footprint leading back for many years between the party as well as the individual.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here:.Listen here:.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.794)Welcome to the NdB Sunday show with me, Chris Steyn. Today, I speak to the only police officer ever to be awarded the Silver Star for bravery twice. Colonel Tollie Vreugenburg, formerly of the Hawks, where he worked on Crimes Against the State and commanded Anti-Terrorism investigations. Welcome, Colonel. Tollie Vreugdenburg (00:28.473)Good morning, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Chris Steyn (00:33.73)Well, I don't have to tell you that political interference and corruption have been trending topics in this country for a couple of months now. What is your take on the testimony given by the KZN Provincial Police Commissioner, and to other generals at the Madlanga Commission and the Ad Hoc Committee in Parliament? Tollie Vreugdenburg (00:56.633)I just want to wind back a bit. Corruption and political interference is not a new thing in South Africa. That is coming from the old Apartheid government when history shows us that the illegitimate state was kept in place by political interference and the weaponisation of the police force of that time. You could just look at the TRC reports and all the TRC applications where everybody said they were given instructions by political figures, but none of them stood up and took responsibility for that. So that just went over from the South African Police Force over into the South African Police Service. Hence, we're having the state that we're having now. It is just not as...they don't hide it as good in the previous days. Yes, now the current situation in Parliament as well as the Commission is a very bad state of... Sorry, they could just... The current commission and the testimony in front of Parliament… brings forward a picture of a very, very bad police service in South Africa. And with this, it have impacted policing very much. You have impacted the outcome of policing investigations very much, and also resulted in the police being seen as a failure in South Africa. Chris Steyn (02:53.026)How do you rate the evidence led thus far? Tollie Vreugdenburg (02:56.441)I know both the generals well. I've worked my 43 years career in the police past with them during my career, especially with General Masemola when he was the Head of the Nat Joints, where I had a seat also during major, major events in South Africa. And General Mkhwanazi, that was part of the Task Force, and Special Task Force - and during my investigation of terrorist cases, I always used to the South African Police’s Special Task Force to assist me in arresting terrorists because me as a normal detective, I'm not equipped and trained to do that. Both of them are persons of high integrity and what they say and what they said in the commission as well as in front of Parliament is not new to me. I've experienced it myself during my career, especially the latter parts of my career. And I take my hat off for them to come forward and come to the open. They are the only two currently that have enough courage to do that. Chris Steyn (04:14.018)Colonel, now that you are retired, you can share some of the incidents of political interference in your investigations with us. Tollie Vreugdenburg (04:23.029)Thank you, Chris. Way back in 2015, during the African Union, you remember the well-known Omar al-Bashir, President of Sudan, that was invited to South Africa to attend the African Union Summit whilst there was a warrant by the International Criminal Court for him for human rights abuses in Sudan. As part of my role and my mandate in the...Crimes Against the State and especially the Counter-Terrorism Section was to investigate and to arrest him because we are signatures to the Rome Statute that forces me and as a Crimes Against the State investigator to execute any ICC, the International Criminal Court warrants of arrest. And during the EU, it was brought onto the table and after many, many, many meetings, there was an instruction on a specific day that, yes, President Al-Bashir will be arrested by a member of Interpol, as well as myself, and in Nat Joints, there was an instruction given that he must not be allowed to leave the country. That meeting stopped about 10 o'clock that night. The plan was to...do it to make a proper operational plan and execute it during the next morning. Three o'clock that night I was found by one of my colleagues who said Al-Bashir just left on the plane. I said what? No, he has just left on the plane. So irrespective of the decision not to arrest him, irrespective of the court case, the court case that was in the Pretoria North Gauteng High Court that said South Africa must arrest him, the political figures in South Africa working with the senior South African Police Service members, management… Tollie Vreugdenburg (06:36.193)…allowed him to fly out of the country. There was a case docket open during that time of contempt of court. It was opened by one of the DA members of Parliament. And that case docket disappeared from 2015 until 2019. Then suddenly the case docket landed on my table again with nothing being done on it. It was laying on another general's table for the whole time. Nothing was done to it. We started an investigation and we were working on the investigation and following the leads everything up to a level where we have gone through everybody from the person that was instructed to guard the plane on Waterkloof Airport to the person that worked at Customs in Waterkloof Airport, everybody up to a certain level when we start touching the politicians again - and we started requesting cell phone information for the politicians again and the senior management of the police at that time. And then they shut us down again. That was it. So that is one that is frustrating for me as a police, a seasoned police officer and a seasoned detective who just wants to do his job. Tollie Vreugdenburg (08:02.305)You understand, I don't want to keep any political party in power, I don't want to keep any regime in power. I just want to do the job that I was given. I took oath in 1980 to protect and serve the country. This is political interference. The second one I can give you... Chris Steyn (08:23.266)Please. Tollie Vreugdenburg (08:23.385)Sorry, the second one I can give you is my personal experience is the hostile takeover of the DPCI by Zuma's crony, Berning Ntlemeza where General Dramat was pushed out of the way with false accusations and Berning Ntlemeza was appointed in his place. And it took various NGOs years, I think two years, to get rid of him and to prove to the court that it was an illegal appointment. But while he was there, the whole of the DPCI was captured. Appointments was made in senior posts. Senior posts was created that never existed. The DPCI is just like the certain other...State organisations in South Africa. The DPCI is one of the organisations in South Africa, State organisations…that have the most senior management, brigadiers, generals, etc. And the foot soldiers on the bottom is less than them. So yes, there was nepotism, persons appointed from places that...that has no experience into the post, that have no experience in that post. After he was removed when General Godfrey Lebeya was appointed, hw tried to rectify it, but he was just as frustrated as all the rest of us, all boys in the DPCI. He managed to get rid of some of those people. Others...were brought back into the police…. something similar happened with the persons that were away, suspended from the police during the same time that General Dramat was suspended. So the DPCI as it now stands is, and I will be interested for me to see who is going to be appointed the new head of the DPCI, Hawks. Tollie Vreugdenburg (10:45.529)Is it going to be a career policeman or is it to be a political appointment? Then we will see if the Hawks are still going to be captured. And then also...the well-known Pravin Gordhan case that everybody is talking about. It was a drawn out case. If you look at that case and you study that case, there was books written about it… It was a pure, pure political motivated investigation. When the person that is on top favours the late Pravin Gordhan, he is appointed as minister. Then a week later, there's a new person on top. Then the late Pravin Gordhan was fired again. You can imagine that. So just a few. I'm not going to talk about the terrorist investigations that I did. For me, luckily, there's very few persons in the top management that understand terrorism like I understand it, and my members on the ground understand it. And then there's also, most importantly, there's international structures that controls the combating and the mitigation of terrorism, like the United Nations, the United Nations Financial Action Task Force, that controls how terrorist investigations must do, and political interference is then removed from the equation there. Just going back to what's happening currently in the country, you know that...within a few weeks, we are reassessed by the Financial Action Task Force to be taken off the Gray List. I was part of the assessment in 2019, the original assessment, up to 2022 when I retired. And we are close to be taken off the Gray List. But I don't know what the... Sorry, can we just take a break?.Read more:.The NdB Sunday Show - Jacques Taljaard: Neil’s successor speaks on Mthethwa, McKenzie, Malema….Tollie Vreugdenburg (12:59.681)Like the church bell. Like the church bell. For God's there's a church right behind me. But that is half past eight. Yeah, it's half past eight. The church starts at nine. Chris Steyn (13:00.355)No problem. Chris Steyn (13:05.326)That's appropriate for the Sunday show. Chris Steyn (13:15.596)No problem. At least people will be able to tell we recorded the Sunday show on a Sunday. Tollie Vreugdenburg (13:20.849)Yes. So now, if that is my dog, start singing with the choir. I think you can hear them. Chris Steyn (13:25.174)No problem. No problem. Tollie Vreugdenburg (13:30.562)Okay, they will calm down now. Chris Steyn (13:34.946)No problem. Lovely, church bells. Tollie Vreugdenburg (13:35.321)Every Sunday that I've got this dog choir singing of the church bells. So I just let it pick up where we were. Chris Steyn (13:43.426)So you. You were talking about the current situation. Tollie Vreugdenburg (13:51.353)Sorry, I lost my, just before that, sorry, was just bringing it back. Chris Steyn (13:58.028)We were going back to where we are now. Tollie Vreugdenburg (14:03.577)Yes, yes, The Financial Action Task Force. So, I'm just going to start over again with the Financial Action Task Force. So, one of the international authorities that we have to apply to is the United Nations Financial Action Task Force. And we have been graylisted by them a few years ago and South Africa is going to be re-evaluated in a few months and the possibility of being taken off the Grey List is very good. The result of that will be financial benefits to all South Africans. Investments will come back to South Africa, certain sanctions will be lifted, etc. in the Financial Action Task Force evaluation there’s, there’s 11 immediate outcomes that have to be adhered to, of which corruption and money laundering is the two of the most important ones. And what is now in the public? I'm afraid that it's going to have an impact on our evaluation. That is my personal opinion. There's also media reports of that possibility. So let's just hope that… The United Nations don't keep us on the Grey List after this. Chris Steyn (15:36.974)How effective do you think this commission and the committee will be able to do their work considering huge efforts to cover up for those implicated and big discreditation operations being run against the whistleblowers? Tollie Vreugdenburg (15:58.22)Any commission, any investigation is as good as what is done with the information after the hearing, after the commission. I think we're talking about previous commissions, very well known commissions. We haven't seen the results. Was there any prosecution? Was there anything done? Will there be anything done with all the information that has been provided now? Will it be turned into evidence and used to arrest and prosecute the perpetrators. That is only when a commission is successful. Any testimony, any parliamentary hearing can only be successful if there is a result coming from that. Not just a recommendation, but a physical result, ending up with persons being arrested and ending up in prison serving time for them, what they have done. Chris Steyn (16:52.974)Let's go to General Mkhwanazi. His life must be in grave danger. Tollie Vreugdenburg (17:00.473)That is so, that is so, but knowing him personally well, the guy that wants to take him out, good luck to you. That is a highly trained, highly highly trained combatant. I hope that General Masemola and the rest of the management also see it and they take steps to protect him, but he is himself as a person, he is very capable of protecting himself. Chris Steyn (17:34.446)Now Colonel, there's this dark triad of cartel bosses, corrupt cops, captured politicians. Can it ever be broken? Tollie Vreugdenburg (17:46.572)It's difficult, as I said, it's not a new phenomenon. The only thing that has changed now is they are not keeping a political party in power, they're keeping the cartels in power now. And they're hijacking the police for their own pocket benefit, not for political gain. That is what the situation is. Will it ever be broken? It's difficult, because the roots are so deep into...the political parties, not only the governing party, but the other parties also, the root is so deep into state parastatals, all the different state entities that is involved. I'm not talking about the police only. There's others that is very important to the security of South Africa, but there's also just as corrupt managers in their system that have to be addressed. Chris Steyn (18:43.374)Are you saying that sections of our intelligence services are captured too? Tollie Vreugdenburg (18:48.707)Yes. Yes. Well, you can just look at the Crime Intelligence and all the allegations made by both generals against Crime Intelligence of how the Slush Fund, the secret fund that has been misused. And that's been misused all the years, for many, many years has been misused to line the pockets of certain people. The oversight on those secret accounts is applicable to the State Security Agency that also has some of the secret funds as well as the Defence Intelligence has similar of the secret funds that has to be checked by oversight committees. That is not done. I investigated in 2015, I investigated a case at the State Security at Masanda, one of the most secure premises in South Africa, where a group of thieves walk into Masanda the night after Christmas into the Foreign Branch’s safe and walked away with cash, allegedly 50 million rands of cash that they walked away with. I investigated the case and eventually I arrested one of the Deputy DG's of State Security’s bodyguard. And that is it. Eventually, the first figure that they gave me was 50 million. After I asked for a breakdown in financial books, it went down to 17 million. So somewhere in between. You can see there was there’s things being done behind the scenes that they wanted to justify or they didn’t want to rectify by criminal cases. But once we're poking through it. Tollie Vreugdenburg (20:44.851)You walk into a... you find out the truth and then you walk into a political wall that cannot... that you cannot breach. Chris Steyn (20:54.094)What did you make of that raid on the home of suspended Deputy Commissioner Shadrack Sibiya?.Read more:.Tollie Vreugdenburg (21:06.101)It will be interesting to see what they took there and what was the purpose of the raid. Usually when you do a raid like that, you're looking for evidence because you do a raid for that with court authorised warrants or Search and Seizure warrants. And if they were directed in doing that and they have found what they wanted, maybe there's a case. I cannot…speculate on what was going on because every case is part of that. But if the value of what they recovered there and sees there is such a nature that they were able to compile a criminal case, then it is really good. Chris Steyn (21:52.846)And then there was the Asset Forfeiture unit carting away luxury vehicles from the home of President Cyril Ramaphosa's nephew by marriage. Tollie Vreugdenburg (22:06.103)Yes, I saw that. I would love to see what's going to happen with that Lamborghinithey got it away there and all those luxury items. That is a different kind of way to deal with persons that are under suspicion by taking the money away, taking away the assets, taking away the means to do that crime. That was just as shocking to see that on the morning new, two major operations simultaneously going on. Chris Steyn (22:42.254)Meanwhile, the African National Congress seems desperate to distance itself from certain people implicated, specifically Brian Mogotsi. Tollie Vreugdenburg (22:54.253)Yeah, that is so, but it's too late now. Unfortunately, history tells its own story, and by association, they cannot distance themselves from them or try to break ties with. They can break ties with him now, but it's too late. It's much too late. There will be a big footprint leading back for many years between the party as well as the individual. Chris Steyn (23:21.368)Now, General, sorry Colonel, I promoted you there. I think you deserve that promotion. Colonel, let's talk about your book. Let me look for the title. The High Treason Club. I love the title. The High Treason Club. Tell us the story behind the book. Tollie Vreugdenburg (23:23.798)Thank you. Thank you. Tollie Vreugdenburg (23:44.024) The High Treason Club is the story of the Boeremag. The Boeremag is a right-wing organisation established in 2000 that tried to overthrow the South African government, the ANC government, by means of armed conflict and initiate a racial war in South Africa….I was an investigating officer in that case. The case itself was one of the most expensive cases and longest lasting cases in South African legal history. It took us 10 years to finalise the trial, with all 23 accused being convicted and sentenced on High Treason. So what they tried to do, the Right-wing extremist group, the Boeremag, is they tried to create a racial war, firstly by killing Nelson Mandela while he was on the way to open a school…Luckily, the plan didn't work out because if you read the book, there's a certain reason why the person, not likely by the grace of God, it didn't work out because he was not driving that day to the school, but flying to the school. Then they exploded the Soweto bombs in late 2000s where they killed… Also, there was a bomb exploded at the Grand Central Airport at the police, as well as Police Air Wing, as well as …. Bridge in the Eastern Cape. They were led by the visions of Siener van Rensburg. That is a person in South Africa that's the same as Nostradamus internationally. The Right-wing extremists follow his visions… Tollie Vreugdenburg (25:39.576)…and the predictions to the letter. And then the radicalisation part of it is the religion that they belong to, is Israel Vision religion that believes they are followers of the residents of the Ten Lost tribes of Israel and the chosen people. That's all to be read in the book. Karen Mitchell, the author and myself, tried to write an objective as possible book just to bring this very important stage in South Africa’s political history, bring it and put it on the shelves. The results - if the Boeremag was successful, and I always say if they were successful in killing, murdering Nelson Mandela, if a white person, we can be honest in racist, if a white person killed Nelson Mandela, a racial war would have started in South Africa. And if you look at Gaza today, that is how South Africa would have looked like. And we can be honest with each other, there's nothing else, no more, no less. Luckily, it didn't happen, and we are still having our houses, although we struggling now with corruption and political interference, but the country is still alive. Chris Steyn (27:05.496)Tell us about those Silver Cosses you were awarded in each case. Tollie Vreugdenburg (27:10.233)The first silver cross was for the Boeremag case. Under my leadership, we foiled the last attack that was supposed to happen on the 13th of December 2002, where four large car bombs consisting of 400 kilograms were supposed to be exploded in Gauteng. One of them was at the Bree Street taxi rank. Remember, recently there was a gas line exploding there, with major damage. Just imagine a 400 kilogram exploding device on top of that gas line, what kind of damage that will be. So all those targets, those four targets were at similar places. We established that we'd have at least 3,000 casualties at each one of those targets. That would have been South Africa's 9/11 x 4. The other one was bestowed on my team when in 2012 we prevented the attack on the ANC elective conference in Mangaung - six hours before it was supposed to commence. There was also a Right-wing grouping that was planning to mortar bomb the ANC elective conference at 12 o'clock when...the President and all the Big Six leaders were in the conference tent and they wanted to have a stand-off, bombarded, mortar-bombarded on the tent and kill all of the leaders. Also then, kill the persons attending the, there was about 20,000 people in that stadium, in that university on that day. Six hours in the morning, six o'clock that morning of the 16th of December 2012 in the operation that they planned across the whole country, we arrested all the leaders of the group and we mitigated and prevented the attack. I don't think I deserve it personally. For me, it's always the team. And I'm just the leader of the team. Chris Steyn (29:22.83)Any last words for our viewers after over 40 years of seeing the things most of us will never learn about? Tollie Vreugdenburg (29:33.529)Two things, you will learn about it because I'm writing the next book, Footpath of a Detective, where all my experiences that I can write about will be expressed. But for the listeners, I just want to plead to them, the police service as it is, is not bad. It's only a very small percentage of the police service that is corrupt. There is thousands of policemen out there that is committed to their work, working hard, with the little resources that they have, with the little support from management that they have. There's always complaints that the prison system is overflowing. But those persons that didn't walk to the prison door and handed themselves over; they were arrested by a policeman, investigated by a policeman, trialed by a court and sentenced by a court, hence being placed into prison. So that is just the end result of committed and dedicated policemen. They are there. They are there. Please do not judge all the police and say that the police is corrupt. No, the police is not corrupt. It's just a small, small part of the police that is corrupt. Chris Steyn (30:57.55)Thank you very, very much. That was retired Colonel Tollie Vreugtenburg speaking to BizNews. I'm Chris Steyn. Tollie Vreugdenburg (31:06.308)Thank you.

The NdB Sunday Show: (Ret.) Col Tollie Vreugdenburg - Cop who foiled SA’s “9/11 x 4” hails the courage of Mkhwanazi & Masemola

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