In this week’s NdB Sunday Show, Chris Steyn and Willem Els of the Security Initiative for Africa (SIA) cover Acting Police Minister Firoz Cachalia’s announcement that he will seek Cabinet approval for the appointment of General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi as the National Head of the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPC) (The Hawks) followed by a threat from forensic investigator Paul O'Sullivan to go to court to stop the appointment; the arrests of former IDAC Chief Advocate Andrea Johnson and sacked Crime Intelligence (CI) Deputy Chief Major General Feroz Khan; sacked Ekurhuleni Metro Police Chief Lieutenant Julius Mkhwanazi being hit with another charge, this time in relation to the murder of Witness D; the Special Investigating Unit (SIU) hunting luxury vehicles allegedly being hidden by tender don Hungwani Morgan Maumela; as well as the Pretoria High Court order that former BOSASA COO Angelo Agrizzi has to pay the State R1,66 billion in proceeds linked to corruption..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.43)Welcome to the NdB Sunday Show. With me Chris Steyn and Willem Els of the Security Initiative for Africa. Welcome back, Willem.Willem Els (00:12.44)Hello Chris, thank you very much.Chris Steyn (00:14.956)I'd love to know what you think is the strategy of acting Police Minister Firoz Cachalia with regards to the future of the most popular police general in South Africa.Willem Els (00:30.21)Hi Chris, you know it is very difficult to look inside his head to see what exactly he wants, but what we can deduct from his announcement and the process that he put in motion, you know, the Head of the Hawks is appointed by the minister and not by the national commissioner, but...cabinet must also approve it. So that means that he submitted the memorandum and he put out the request to cabinet and only after they have agreed on that, you know, the process of appointing him can start. The reason why the minister came at this stage with this move is very interesting. Okay, remember we are only days away from the elections and also we need strong leadership when it comes to that.But what we see is that the minister, you know, if you're an acting minister you will do...only semantic changes and so on because at the end of the day, you know, you don't have that always in practice, the confidence to make very decisive announcements because you know, in a week or a month's time from now, you may be replaced by the new minister of police. So that's why I think it demonstrates the urgency from his side to address organised crime because we know that The JHawks, they address all your serious organised crime…Willem Els (02:09.662)…cases. So to bring Mkhwanazi from…it's very it's very interesting because remember if you look at his background, he has been an operational cop, he was in Special Forces with the Task Force and his whole career was on that side of the the line when it comes to the police and, we see that when he became the the national commissioner he started to to gain some prominence there and make some decisions, or the acting national commissioner, and then later on when he became the provincial commissioner for KZN. We saw how that leadership stepped to the fore and how he managed to also oversee the complicated cases and all the other challenges that you face in KZN. We see what he did there. He surrounded himself with a very strong team of competent police officers and he leaves a legacy in KZN, and should he be removed from that position, the province can continue because of the leadership that has been put in place and all the structures that he put in place there. So now for him to come over to The Hawks, which is actually primarily investigations. For him it might be a challenge, but if you look at his leadership style, surrounding himself with strong people, building a good team, and then delivering the results….We believe should he be appointed as the head of The Hawks, he might just follow the same recipe that was successful for him wherever he went.Chris Steyn (03:51.384)And he could eventually still become national commissioner of police as so many people want him to be.Willem Els (03:57.283)Yeah, indeed. You know, when the minister made the announcement, immediately you had those who actually, you know, commented on it that really, he should be the national commissioner, because we need that strong leadership in the national chair in order to reset the police. And I think he is an excellent candidate to do so. But what we see here is this might be the strategy of the acting minister. It's a learning curve for him because it will be at least four five months before General Masemola will retire. If he will retire, if he's not been reappointed, he will come to the end of his contract. So that affords him at least a few months to stabilize The Hawks because they've been under severe pressure because of the investigations, because of the lack of progress in some of the cases, et cetera, et cetera. So that might be the stepping stone for him on route to become the national commissioner. We don't know.Chris Steyn (05:08.078)And meanwhile one person who does not want the general to head The Hawks is forensic investigator Paul O'Sullivan, who has threatened to go to court to stop the appointment.Willem Els (05:19.886)Yeah, you know, if you look at the person of Mr. Sullivan, you know, he's been a private investigator with zero policing experience, even though he was a...you know, a reservist police officer, you know, but a reservist police officer does not really give you all the knowledge that you need to have and experience because, you know, amongst the police officers itself, here we want to say that many of these reservists are doing excellent job and they really enhance the capability of the police, but, you know, still they've been referred to as the Weekend Warriors, you know, because they cannot, they're not really in the mainstream and et cetera. So he might have gained some experience there but what we saw in the past he came out with some allegations and if you look back at the the Selebi case we came forth with with some evidence and so on where that was really valuable but we also see that he's been betting way way way above his league because for him in order to to accomplish all his his objective you know he had to compromise and infiltrate like for instance the IDAC and of course also we know that he's very close to General Sibiya. So I think what happened in the Ad Hock commission as well as in the Madlanga Commission, I think he was a bit cut down to size and really he realised that whenever allegations are not facts and those facts must be proven and must be collaborated in a court of law before that will actually be a fact in the of the law. So he came with some serious allegations against General Mkhwanazii on the first day after that press conference and so on… of course that all fell flat. He repeated some allegations against General Mkhwanazi. But it seems to me that it's not been corroborated and it's not been tested, not even in the Madlanga Commission. So whenever he comes with this allegation, he must understand that it will have to go to court and it…Willem Els (07:34.0)…must withstand the scrutiny of our legal system. You can't just walk around and make allegations.Chris Steyn (07:42.007)In a very dramatic development on Friday, Willem, the former IDAC chief Andrea Johnson and the former crime intelligence deputy chief Major General Feroz Khan: arrested, hauled into the dock, and released on bail. I must say I was surprised that they were released on bail. People who appear on Fridays don't usually get bail or don't usually appear until Monday. So why did they get out so quickly?Willem Els (08:08.846)Now indeed, it was a surprise, not a surprise that they've been arrested on a Friday because we saw that pattern with recent arrests. But for them, I think, you know, they are quite high up in the system. They still got a lot of goodwill from some people within the system that might have just done this favour to bring them to court on the same day and prevent them from being incarcerated over the weekend.So, but that to say, remember, they've been arrested, they're not being found guilty. So that will eventually have been determined by court. But to go back to Johnson, you know, I spoke to a person during the week who was the SSP, that's the Senior State Prosecutor, Senior Staatsaanklaer back in the days when she was a prosecutor…According to this person, she was really, really an out-shooter. She was really good and they moved her to more prominent places because they identified the qualities of her and the leadership and everything else that she has displayed at a very early age.So that is actually sad that it came to this when she's now the accused and so on…decisions and decisions and decisions and they come back to haunt you. And yeah, it is really sad. I think she could have served and she could have made quite a big difference if she walked the straight and narrow, but we don't know… it's all allegations. It must be proven, but it's a sad day for South Africa, yes.Chris Steyn (09:57.209)Do you think things went wrong for her when she got involved with Khan?Willem Els (10:04.966)Yeah, if you look at Khan, you know, and the people also say, General Khan, of course, if you've been dismissed, you can't take your military rank with you, so he's just Mr. Khan. So he's very charming and very persuasive.And I think he befriended her and some of it came out in the Madlanga Commission and how he befriended her, etcetera, et cetera. But of course, then that might have disturbed her thinking and everything else. And she actually did what was wrong according to the allegations. It is not really consistent with her earlier career. So it might have...influence that yes.Chris Steyn (10:51.744)Mm. She looked very tired in the dock. He looked fully recovered from his gunshot wound, but she looked very, very downcast, Willem.Willem Els (11:00.99)I think she's under tremendous strain. I remember she went through quite a lot: she was right on top of the world and came down, tumbling down in a dramatic way. Of course she's taking a lot of strain and yeah, you know her future. I mean she just had everything on her back. She was really doing really well and was well positioned maybe to become the next head of the NPA maybe. But of course now that is not going to happen. So it is sad. Like I said, she was really a rising, very good star. She was identified early on and things just went wrong.Chris Steyn (12:08.642)Another law enforcement officer who had a long and hard fall is Lieutenant Julius Mkhwanazi, or former Lieutenant Julius Mkhwanazi. He has been fired from the Ekurhuleni Metro Police. Let us go to the latest development there, Willem, after he has been arrested in installments.Willem Els (12:30.382)Yeah, indeed, you know, his whole world came tumbling down. We know that they managed to protect him a lot and also that he was only fired recently after a really long time. A lot of accusations against him, also quite a few charges that have been mounted against him. But at the end of the day, we see that on Friday they even slapped him with yet another charge. And what we could gather that is pertaining to the killing of Witness D. So that is interesting and I think if you look at how they work, the machinations going on within his department, under him and so on, there might even be some more cases, more charges being slapped against him.Chris Steyn (13:23.0)Meanwhile the Special Investigating Unit is hunting vehicles allegedly being hidden by Hangwani Morgan Maumela.Willem Els (13:34.275)Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting. Many people are asking, Hungwani, Maumel, he seems to have been the kingpin, he seems to have been the guy that benefited most from the scandal at the hospital. So why is he not being charged? Why is he not being arrested? But we see that the SIU is really on his case, and they are gathering a lot of evidence against him, and they're also pursuing all the proceeds of the crime. In this case there's four to five luxury vehicles like Bentley's and also Ferrari's that are being hidden and they're looking for it - and so they got information that it was being hidden at the premises of one of his people that work with him and they actually got a warrant to go and look for it but it seems that they moved those vehicles; they got word and they moved the vehicles before they could get there. So this is only the beginning for him you know: they go after your assets, they deplete your resources and at the end of the day they're going to arrest and mount the charges against you. So I think the wheels of justice are maybe turning a bit slowly against Maumela but we believe it will keep picking up speed now.Chris Steyn (14:52.332)Because the public is baying for his arrest or his appearance at the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry, at the very least, Willem.Willem Els (15:00.374)At the very least, and it's a pity that we don't have a lot of time left for Madlanga to rein him in. We don't know what their strategies are. We know that they've got their sights on Khan, and most probably they can even surprise us and bring him in if they've got enough evidence against him to actually test that or to put that before the commission. But of course, the commission, after it comes to an end with the final report, et cetera, there will be a lot of people that I think will be targeted with investigations. But that doesn't mean if Maumela has not appeared before the commission that he won't be criminally charged for some of these crimes.Chris Steyn (15:44.898)Meanwhile, much has been made of him being a relative by marriage of President Cyril RamaphosaWillem Els (15:52.239)Indeed, you know, now the lack of progress in this case, you know, it seems that there's lack of progress from our side. But at the end of the day, you know, that actually puts some fuel on the arguments of the people that say, OK, maybe he's being protected from the highest chair and so on. And that will only be refuted once he gets to court and where he will then stand alone and have to defend himself.Chris Steyn (16:23.726)Back to the State Capture era, a Pretoria High Court has ordered that former BOSASA COO Angelo Agrizzi has to pay the State R1,66 billion.Willem Els (16:37.364)Yeah, you know when I read that amount, it just struck me, you what insane amounts of money have been changed, have been looted, have been...in the making when you look at the State Capture. So it is just insane. So it is good, you know, the wheels of justice are coming in, it's turning and turning and turning. And at the end of the day, we hope that Agrizzi will only be the first of many, many to come because the State Capture was not only perpetrated by five or six people. There were many people in very high places that were also complicit.Chris Steyn (17:15.18)Mm. Anything else that happened in the last couple of days, Willem, that you would like to comment on?Willem Els (17:20.908)Yeah, I think, you know...the police get a lot of strain and a lot of flak because of course the lack of progress and lack of doing what they're supposed to do, but we see that near Sun City there was yet another bust of a crime lab.So it seems that ever since the Madlanga Commission started to expose these cartels and so on that the protection is not what it's supposed to be and we see that tremendous inroads have been made ever since. That can be the one, we don't say it is only that, but what we also see is, and I mentioned the TPC, that your Tri Planning Cell. It's an agreement between South Africa, Mozambique and Tanzania, and now also Uganda and Angola to work together in the fight against crime. They are even establishing a Fusion Centre in Pretoria now to coordinate all the intelligence, all the information, and also to ensure that joint operations against these cartels will be well coordinated. So I think that is a tremendous positive step in the fight against drugs in South Africa.Chris Steyn (18:40.032)Indeed. Thank you. That was Willem Els speaking to BizNews. I am Chris Steyn. Thank you, Willem.Willem Els (18:47.982)Thank you, Chris..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.