Phapano Phasha: We are led by the worst in society

President Cyril Ramaphosa is surrounded by advisors that are “mainly inept”. So says political commentator Phapano Phasha. She says he has “juniorised” his office with people “who cannot lead”. Meanwhile, the President is also “highly embedded” in the narrative surrounding allegations of police capture made by General “Lucky” Mkhwanazi. Phasha predicts that “whoever has the money will likely win the ANC conference and become the next ANC president”. In this factional race, SG Fikile Mbalula “has everything intact because he's got external people who support him. He is in charge of branches. But he's the weakest of them all.” Commenting on former President Jacob Zuma’s threat of further legal action and political mobilisation unless the President resigns by Friday, Phasha says his MKP is on a collision course. “It's like the Titanic… that kind of organisation, it will eventually break. But for now, I think it's a necessary irritation because what we're having is we're having a GNU and this GNU is unfortunately not able to hold the ANC accountable.” Meanwhile, she warns that the Democratic Alliance (DA) is likely to be punished in the next election. “I had hoped that the NEC would agree to kick off the DA out of the GNU because what you would then have is a more robust Democratic Alliance.” She also blasts Gayton McKenzie’s Patriotic Alliance (PA) as a party that would not be in Parliament in a “seasoned democracy”. “But unfortunately, this is where we are. Our politics are mediocre. We are led by the worst in society. Professionals, academics and business people, the patriotic intelligentsia has taken a backseat and allowed this type of people to lead our country.”.Watch here:.Listen here:.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.612)The battle lines between former President Jacob Zuma and President Cyril Ramaphosa have been redrawn again. Mr. Zuma has threatened further legal action and political mobilisation unless President Ramaphosa resigns by Friday. Now we speak to Phapano Pasha, who crafted MKP's election strategy after leaving the African National Congress, but never joined the party.Welcome, Papano. Phapano Phasha (00:30.868)no, thank you so much and thank you to the viewers as well. Chris Steyn (00:38.252)What is Mr. Zuma's ultimate strategy when it comes to President Ramaphosa? Phapano Phasha (00:44.816)Of course to remain relevant. I think he's doing exactly what those who did not support him did when he was still President. Remember the strategy is that MK must remain relevant and at the moment from an opposition perspective there's a lot of vacuum. One can even say that there is no opposition with the DA now part of the GNU. So there's no credible opposition. So I think with all the challenges, the weaknesses, the crisis that the country is in, President Zuma would want to fill the gap. Chris Steyn (01:26.198)Okay, after Mr. Zuma's arrest in 2021, you gave a press briefing at which the government was given 14 days to release Mr. Zuma. Now that was part of the #FreeJacobZuma campaign. You didn't join the party after that. Why not? Phapano Phasha (01:46.514)What it really, I've got, I've always had a soft spot for President Zuma. I guess I always have a soft spot, you know, for the weak, if I might put it like that. So when we, you know, we led this release Zuma, was myself, Carl Niehaus and Andile Lungisa at the time. The rationale was that we thought that the ANC, because I was still in the ANC at the time, could resolve its problems internally, you know, without taking such drastic measures of having a former president in prison. But the reality is that I left the ANC and I was requested to join MK, lead MK, but also eventually to assist with the communication strategy. But I could not join one, it was too soon. And I'm still taking a break from politics. It's a very toxic environment. But over and above that, it rewards mediocrity and incompetence. So I'm just taking a break and I'm just trying to redefine who I am and also dealing with aspects of personal growth. Chris Steyn (02:59.608)Four years down the line. You've watched MKP grow and you've watched the internal battles play out. How do you see its future? Phapano Phasha (03:10.29)Look, most of the things that are happening now, I mean, these are conversations, the last conversation that we had, I had indicated that MK, it was a coalition of the wounded with no ideological grounding, you know, with no substantive manifesto. So it was bound to break. And primarily it's because it's not premised on meritocracy. You know, the people who are leading MK,one, of course, the majority of them were from the ANC. And of course, now you've had people who have joined, some from ActionSA… So what you have within MK is, you know, contrasting ideologies, what you have is lack of ideology as well… You have many leaders, former leaders of the ANC, who are also instrumental for the formulation of ANC policies. And then you have tribalists, you. have hardened religious leaders. So MK stands for everything and it stands for nothing at the same time. So that kind of organisation, it will eventually break. But for now, I think it's a necessary irritation. Because what we're having is we're having a GNU and this GNU is unfortunately not able to the ANC accountable. But over and above that you have smaller parties who are also there, who I believe are also regressive. So MK literally and the EFF becomes what I can say, quote unquote, credible opposition. So for me, that is a serious gap because, of course, the markets would prefer DA to be in the GNU, to keep the ANC in check. That's the major reason. But at the same time, the ANC being part of the GNU has created a vacuum. It's not as if DA is a paragon of wisdom, but the very fact that they could hold the ANC accountable, it kept... Phapano Phasha (05:36.424)…you know, our country was a bit intact. There was a bit of accountability. But with MK, as I said, the party, you know, is on a collision course. It's like the Titanic. It's headed straight for the iceberg. So we'll just have to wait what's going to happen. But the sad thing, you know, in conclusion is that as, you know, President Zuma gets older, it's going to get worse because now people are starting to jostle for position, I mean it's 82. People are starting to jostle for position. So it's gonna get messy, it's gonna get worse. Chris Steyn (06:14.446)Were you surprised that Floyd Shivambo had such a terrible time at MKP? Phapano Phasha (06:24.92)Floyd was ambitious, of course. He really should have not left the EFF, but he left the EFF at its weakest. You know, everyone who left the EFF…of course they were opportunistic. Look, within MK, there are people who were there after it was formed, who of course see themselves in leadership positions - even after President Zuma. So you now have Floyd who did not support MKP, who was very hostile to Jacob Zuma, who now comes and leads. And he takes a strategic position. And in that process, he's not smart…he wants to outshine the leaders. And it was inevitable. I mean, I knew that he was going to fall because there are people who are ambitious within MK and they see the stranger coming in and he's bringing in EFF members and EFF leaders that are overtaking MK members. So it's just a group of people just in for power. Remember politics is primarily about survival. It's opportunistic in nature and everyone wants to lead so that they can have access to patronage. It was going to be a very brutal, especially as MK also heads to the 2026 local elections. So many people are now looking at municipalities starting to position themselves for municipalities because you would know that at the heart of local elections is patronage and proximity to the budget that all these municipalities control. Chris Steyn (08:07.736)Who do you think will take over from President Jacob Zuma? Should he pass on? Phapano Phasha (08:14.676)Well, I think from an eldership perspective, one could say prestige, if I might put it like that. I think Nhleko, who's currently the Chairperson of MK, is the most suitable. I mean, he is one of the elders. He's very close to President Zuma. He understands the ANC quite well, because I would assume that...unlike the narrative that we were given that, of course, MK was contesting so that we can remove the ANC of Ramaphosa, not necessarily the ANC, but we could actually deal with a Ramaphosa factor. I think that narrative is long gone and must be accepted. MK party is now an opposition which completely wants the ANC out of power. They also want the breadcrumbs that come with leading. So I think Nhleko would be the likely success of President Zuma. Chris Steyn (09:22.03)How do you see the future of the African National Congress going into the municipal elections? Phapano Phasha (09:28.82)Well, you know, again, the ANC is an enemy of its own success, if I might put it like that. But also, if you look at this current NEC and the ANC itself, unfortunately, the President has juniorised his office. Therefore, it has become so difficult for the ANC to not only renew itself, but to also strategically position itself for local elections. I can tell you now, I know local elections from the tip of my finger…the first local election that I participated in was in 2001 and I was a young girl from Soweto. And since then I've participated, I've left, I've crafted also political strategies. I've always, you know, one would always know that even with its setbacks, even if the ANC or even if deploys of the ANC would be focused on issues of governance, they'd be able to go back and be able to go back to the ground or go back to the walls where they'll be able to mobilise your natural ANC constituency, which you find in the township, the informal settlement and the rural areas. But of course you had a black middle class which used to support the ANC. The signs are very clear. The ANC is currently a rural party and it has gone from being a poor party because the reality is also that the poor are smarter now. They've got access to social media. They can see through the shenanigans of the ANC leadership. But I must also, as I say this, must also note that there are good leaders within the ANC. But unfortunately, because of the factional nature of the ANC politics, the President has a group of people that he works with, and those are people who advise him and who support him. And the reality is that if you look at them, they're mainly inept. They cannot lead. We saw them when they went to the Oval Office in Washington. They could not even assist the president when he was under pressure. The country is currently going through an economic decline, and they do not have answers..Read more:.BN Briefing: Emma Powell betrayed; Mkhwanzi watershed; What’s next for PHSG, Trump Tariffs; Palantir.Phapano Phasha (11:54.214)So unfortunately, the ANC is facing a serious crisis from its own internal challenges, from a crisis of legitimacy. So the ANC is in serious trouble. But I think the leadership have accepted that they are now not a majority. So they're working for the breadcrumbs. Whatever they'll get, they'll be able to work with other opposition parties to form coalitions, as they've done. But the ANC is currently not on the ground. It has lost the trust of society. So we are just dealing with an organisation which just exists because it has managed to scramble whatever votes it has managed to get. But the organisation is really in trouble. Chris Steyn (12:43.758)Let's talk about those deepening factions in the African National Congress as it is heading towards its presidential elections. Who do you think is leading? Phapano Phasha (12:58.814)Well, the faction that is leading is the faction that is in charge. If you look, let's be realistic. It's quite evident that the media, in fact, the mainstream media in cohorts with the factions within the ANC, it's quite clear they do not want Paul Mashatile. It's inconceivable that every week and every day you would have News24, Daily Maverick, Sunday Times or the Times publishing stories about Paul Mashatile and his house, his kids, as if the ANC does not have over 80 NEC members. I mean, if there was a level of honesty from the media, we would know how much Cyril Ramaphosa's house is worth, whether his children are doing business with government, Gwede Mantashe you know, and all the other, know, from the top seven to the entire NEC. So what is evident is that Paul Mashatile is a black sheep. But you see, the challenge is that the very black sheep might be tending to a victim. And we've seen it with Jacob Zuma. And the other reality is that those who do not want Paul can settle for anything as long as it's not Paul. And that anything can be the worst. You know the saying in the absence of the best, the worst becomes the best. So, the likelihood is that Fikile Mbalula can emerge. He controls branches and branches of the ANC, as we know with CR17 bank statements, they can be bought. So whoever has the money will likely win the ANC conference and become the next ANC president. But over and above that, I think one cannot lose hope and give up on the branch members of the ANC that they will use their own consciousness to choose the leader that they want, a leader who would be able to implement the vision and the policies of the ANC. But at the moment, I think there are people who want to control the outcomes of the ANC presidents. Of course, the market would want a leader who's not hostile. But at the same time, they don't look at aspects of meritocracy. They don't look at aspects of competence. Phapano Phasha (15:20.936)They look at any other comrade who can advance the interest of the markets, which for me is really an indictment. So for now, it's quite sketchy, but it will depend on external and internal factors. But as I said, think Fikile Mbalula has everything intact because he's got external people who support him. He is in charge of branches, but he's the weakest of them all. Chris Steyn (15:54.434)What do you make of the allegations, the bombshell allegations made by KZN General Lucky Mkhwanazi, and President Cyril Ramaphosa's handling of those allegations? Phapano Phasha (16:08.808)Well, initially, because I've been trying to be as modest as possible when it comes to the assessment of our political ecosystem, because you would know that, unfortunately, for any professional to do business with the State, you really cannot be too harsh on the ruling party, which is an indictment. You you always have to ensure that you are in the middle or you just keep quiet. But initially, I was...I thought that the President would have handled it well because from a professional perspective, I would understand that it was not really professional for Mkhwanazi to go out there and speak outside of his terms, you know, as a general, as a leader, you know, within the Police Service. And I do have some experience in terms of how, you know, policing works. So I thought that he just went over and above his core. But on his side, I also understood that Mkhwanazi has been engaging the office of the President and Mkwanazi has been engaging with those who are in government to highlight the level of criminality within the Police Service and no one has been listening. But I'm not really surprised with how the president responded. Primarily because the person that Mkhwanazi was mainly targeting or speaking of, it was one of the chief lobbyists for the President. Meaning that Mkhwanazi was not speaking about any ordinary person. He was speaking about a person who knows about the President. He was speaking about, you know…apologists, who was also instrumental in Supra Mahumapelo being removed as a Premier of the Northwest government. These are the people who were also instrumental in ensuring that during the tenure of Supra Mahumapelo, Northwest was destabilised so that society can actually believe that Supra Mahumapelo was corrupt. So even if you look at some of the accused people, Phapano Phasha (18:34.548)…who were mentioned by Mkhwanazi. These are some of the people who led the anti-Supra campaign in Northwest. So the president is highly embedded in this narrative. So what do you then do when you are conflicted? So the ANC is conflicted because the removal of Supra, as I said, included some of the people who were mentioned by Mkhwanazi who are now claiming that they are business people. These were not business, these were ordinary people, but they managed to escape poverty because they were instrumental in removing a leader. So over and above that, it's quite clear that with the instability in our country, issues of crime, that you would not think that our leadership actually wants to resolve the problem of crime, the problem of drugs that have infested our townships. So, I think this issue is bigger than, you know, Mkhwanazi. And what is sai for me and what is an indictment is that the Portfolio Committee, one of the portfolio committees, you know, Scopa is going to be the one interviewing Mkhwanazi. So the very politicians who are, you know, who were indicted by Mkhwanazi are the ones who are going to be interviewing the general, which shows you that we do not have an independent political system. The crooks are going to be interviewing this man who's a whistleblower in the main. Of course, he might not be innocent. We don't know if he's innocent, but now the question is who guards the guardians? That's another question who … the very politicians who are being lambasted for working with these very criminals. The question is, why has the ANC government not been able to deal and manage the issue of crime? We have seen thousands of wealthy South Africans running away literally. We can say that they are going to the global North, but the reality is that they are running… Phapano Phasha (21:00.944)…away. Many other people who love this country, patriotic citizens, are staying because they cannot afford to leave. But crime has gotten to such a stage where you wonder where can we go as ordinary South Africans. But it becomes an indictment when we now know that politicians are also involved. And also remember that the indictment does not only stop with the involvement of political leaders and their usage of the police for political reasons. It also goes to election processes. We've heard that how the police were used at Nasrec conference and prior conferences. So you are literally dealing with a police force that has been polluted with ANC functional battles. And the very ANC, which I love, is the same ANC which is going to be questioning Mkhwanazi. Chris Steyn (22:05.452)I want to take you briefly to the former opposition Democratic Alliance. Do you think it's going to be punished in the next elections for going into the GNU and for its performance or non performance in that Government of National Unity? Phapano Phasha (22:21.0)Look, you know, I'm one person who used to adore Helen Zille. And it's primarily because we know her history and where she comes from. Of course you have a different Helen Zille now. The Helen Zille that we know is the Helen Zille who worked with the likes of Alistair Sparks, who worked to ensure that they expose the corruption of the Apartheid government. And these are people who worked with freedom fighters. Helen Zille, his role in ensuring that he takes out the stories of Steve Biko and other freedom fighters. So that's the Helen Zille that we know. But unfortunately, what Helen Zille has become now is a leader who pursues narrow interest of a minority, which is unfortunate because what you have with the DA, you have a party which is grounded on ethos that one could say they were entrenched with some level of generosity. If you look at Helen Suzman and many other commendable white people and the Jewish community, if I might say, that in short that they funded the struggle for liberation, that ensured that we are free today. So unfortunately, the DA, as I said, is now servicing the interest of the white minority. And unfortunately, it's not assisting because you are dealing with a minority. You have a majority that can be influenced and pursued outside of the interest. And the other reality is that white people are also not homogeneous, but because they are minority, one would presume that they are scared that the land might be taken. So there might be issues which they're not comfortable with that makes them easily to vacillate towards the DA or your Freedom Front. But the issues that the DA have been pursuing for me, it's not one in their own interest because we know the DA as one political party that has managed to hold various administrations accountable. And when I say that I also go pre-94, before the DA became the Democratic Alliance, we know what the Democratic Alliance did with Apartheid government, but it's a shadow of its former self. Phapano Phasha (24:48.148)However, we do need the DA's apologies. I had hoped that the NEC would agree to kick off the DA out of the GNU because what you would then have is a more robust Democratic Alliance. But unfortunately, we are not having that. DA leaders are now part of the administration they have smelled what we call Blue Lights. You know, you know, now they know what it means to be a minister and the incentives that come with being a minister. So unfortunately, the DA, I think as you're saying, I think it's likely to be punished. But the question is, where will the white vote go? Because it's quite clear that, you know, white voters do not vote for the ANC the same way that the middle class is no longer voting for the ANC. So the black middle class, I meant. So I think the DA might have to come up with other combative issues because you would know that local elections, are primarily issue-based. But what is the alternative? The other likelihood, by the way, is that someone like Helen Zille, despite what I'm saying, might become the mayor of Johannesburg. That's the other likelihood because no matter what you can say, the reality is that the Western Cape has been led and when you go and many of us and be the black elite, black political class and everyone else, we all go to the Western Cape because we know when we are in the Western Cape, we are safe, there's proper infrastructure… Of course, one can argue that around the issue of the informal settlements and the poor. But the other reality is that if you look at the Western Cape, the Western Cape, no different to Gauteng has an Eastern Cape problem. You've got a number of people who are migrating from the Eastern Cape, who are literally running to the Western Cape and Gauteng as well… Phapano Phasha (27:09.874)…for services for a better life. So it's important that when one looks, for example, at the Western Cape and the model of governance by the DA, we don't only look at the DA from their political posture, but we also look at the DA from a governance perspective. For me, if you take someone like, until the ANC, for example, would bring in a competent leader, I would say that Helen Zille is likely, as I said, to become a mayor. And I have spoken because, you know, I run a research institute and I also run a media platform. And I've spoken to many people who say that, look, Helen Zille might save Johannesburg because at this point there's no one, the ANC does not look as if it has any conviction to save Johannesburg. So on the DA, I think it's how the DA would manage to position itself. But over and above that, I'm not a proponent of BEE, but when it comes from the DA, it looks hostile. When the DA apologists takes BEE to court or takes Affirmative Action to court, they come out as racist. So I think those are some of the things that the DA needs to consider. Of course, they might be doing this from a perspective of really wanting to reform the policies, but at the same time, they're not able to articulate why BEE should be abolished and what should be replaced. So, the DA is making, you know, I would say superficial, it's creating superficial challenges for itself that it shouldn't because it wants to come out, it continuously wants to come out as a saviour, especially for white people, which I said, as I said, for me, it's an indictment because the DA can go over and above this characterisation as a white party. Chris Steyn (29:14.802)Lastly, judging by by-election results, the Patriotic Alliance seems to be the fastest growing party in the country. What do you make of its leader, Gayton McKenzie, and the latest scandal involving Kenny Koonenie? Phapano Phasha (29:30.206)Well, interestingly, look at the people who support the Patriotic Alliance. It's Rob Hersov, but also it's people who align with the cause of Israel. So now the Patriotic Alliance has become an alternative, but what does the Patriotic Alliance really stand for? From a policy perspective, this is a party whose leader just goes out there and says…let them go. This is a leader whose claim to fame is by patronising and antagonisng Africans without putting forward any substantive policy issue. And we know the history of Gayton, we know where he comes from and we also know that it's primarily the Coloured community that is vacillated towards the Patriotic Alliance. There's no, I would say there's no smart person, including in the Coloured community who would support the Patriotic Alliance because they know that they manipulate the issue of race, also know that they also manipulate the issue of …borders, even though that we know that they work with Zimbabweans. They also work with some of the people from the continent. So what they do is they speak to the issues that anger our people. But in particular, the Coloured question, which for me, the ANC has really done a disfavour because we know that the Coloured community was instrumental in the liberation of our country. And we also know that the DA had an opportunity to ensure that it's able to bring in the Coloured community, position them as leaders, but also to be seen in the Western Cape, to be instigating change, to be seen to really be dealing with the issues of drugs, to be dealing with the issues of violence, including protecting the young boys within the Coloured community. And it has not been seen. The likelihood is that it might be done, but it's not seen. So for me, these are the gaps. That's where the Patriotic Alliance comes in. In a normal democracy, in a seasoned democracy, you'd not have a party like the Patriotic Alliance… Phapano Phasha (31:56.678)…in Parliament because it stands for nothing. But unfortunately, this is where we are. Our politics are mediocre. We are led by the worst in society. Professionals, academics, you know, and business people, know, patriotic, you know, the patriotic intelligentsia has taken a backseat and allowed this type of people to lead our country. Look at where our country is, you know, look at our you know, our economic trajectory. Look at where we are in the continent. We have been overtaken by many countries. We do not have any clue what we are doing from an economic perspective. We now even we hear ANC leaders saying that because Trump has put a 30 percent tariff, they're going to also retaliate, you know. So you are being led really by what Karl Marx would call…but unfortunately they've got the capacity to lead. They are being funded and which is quite unfortunate also by a business, big business in particular, white capital. So for me also at the centre of this with the problems within the black community and the problems of leadership at the same time, what is instrumental is the very fact that white capital is the one that exacerbates the problem because they're the ones who fund these parties.I mean, for me, it's an indictment that the Jewish community would want to Gayton, that they would even invite someone like Gaytonn who is so hostile… So it shows you that we really have a problem of...competency of really identifying competent people and moving from a perspective of questioning ourselves on whether we are ready to govern, you know, to start being a meritocratic country which elevates its best. And there are many people, black, white, Indian, Coloured, who've gone to school, who are ideologically sober, who can lead, but look at the people who are leading us. Chris Steyn (34:13.432)Thank you. That was Phapano Pasha, brand communication specialist and former political activist speaking to BizNews. And I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Phapano. Phapano Phasha (34:23.742)Thank you so much, Chris. Thank you so much.

Phapano Phasha: We are led by the worst in society

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