Prof. DQ Mabunda: Mkhwanazi has given SA a chance to fix itself

As South Africans brace themselves for another week of revelations about police capture and political capture, Chris Steyn speaks to Professor DQ Mabunda, a former police officer, now lecturing in Police Practice at the School of Law at UNISA. He says if a lower-ranking officer had tried to stand up and speak up against corruption, he or she would have been sanctioned or even suspended. “But we thank General Mkhwanazi for what he has come out to tell the society that there is a rot somewhere. And it's a good opportunity for us to identify that rot and fix it and move ahead as a developing country.” Professor Mabunda says it would take time, political will, determination, and good leadership” to clean out of the whole criminal justice system - and he warns that if recommendations coming out of the enquiries were regarded as “just recommendations”, the country would be doomed. “But hopefully, the men and women of integrity in this country will stand up and say, we will not allow corrupt officials to rule this country.”Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:02.331)As South Africans brace themselves for another week of revelations about police capture and political capture, we speak to Professor DQ Mabunda. Welcome, Sir. Quiet (00:17.518)Good morning Chris and good morning to the listeners. Chris Steyn (00:22.277)Now, Professor, you lecture in Police Practice at the School of Law at UNISA University, but you were also a police officer once. Please tell us about your background. Quiet (00:34.958)Thank you, Chris. I joined the police in 1986 after matriculation and I worked in different divisions in the police. I spent much of my time at the Criminal Record centers in Gauteng, Germiston, Kempton Park, provincial office in Parktown. And I finished my career in the police, working at the Division Training at the office, where I was dealing with the training of officers in various provinces. But as I indicated, my career was spent at a Criminal Record centre doing Forensics and related stuff. And I was also...trained internationally in Los Angeles, UK, by the FBI and the International Law Enforcement Agency in Botswana… Chris Steyn (01:49.693)Well, Sir, then you can speak to us both from a practical point of view as well as from a theoretical and academic view. Sir, what do you make of the evidence that has thus far been laid at firstly, the Madlanga Commission? Quiet (02:09.807)Thank you, Chris. We have had an opportunity to listen to various witnesses in both the Madlanga Commission and the Ad Hoc Committee in Parliament. And a lot of things have come to the surface, which we would not necessarily be privy to know, but thanks to General Mkhwanazi, who on the 6th of July stood out and said, enough is enough. I don't know in Afrikaans as they say, gatvol. So it was enough with the corruption that was taking place under his nose. And we can be thankful as a country because you can imagine a low ranking officer trying to stand out and speak up against corruption. He or she would have been sanctioned or even suspended. But we thank General Mkhwanazi for what he has come out to tell… Quiet (03:09.484)…the society that there is a rot somewhere. And it's a good opportunity for us to identify that rot and fix it and move ahead as a developing country. Chris Steyn (03:23.687)Professor, do you think the South African Police Force as it stands now can still be reformed or is it too late for that? Quiet (03:33.677)It can be reformed, but it will take some time. It will take political will. It will take determination. It will also require good leadership, not cadre deployment. Because one of the things that have messed up the SAPS and other institutions in South Africa is placing people in positions or strategic positions while they do not have a clue what is happening there. And it requires a person some time to acclimatise to the situation. But before they can do that, you find that they are shifted from that position to another position. So that's why there is problems. And we hope that good leadership that is here in South Africa will be identified and placed in positions of responsibility in the SAPS. Then we shall have hope that we will move ahead as a country. But as things stand, as you have seen, high ranking officers accusing each other of various things. So it is impossible that those officers will be able to work together trying to rebuild the SAPS. Chris Steyn (04:56.795)It's become obvious that there is this Dark Triad of cartel bosses, corrupt cops, and captured politicians, and that that has to be broken. How can it be done? Quiet (05:12.478)Yeah, Chris, at this stage, all of these things that we're hearing are still going to be tested. They are regarded as allegations. But once they have been proven, individuals that are involved in these issues have to face the might of the law. And we are hopeful that these two structures, the Madlanga Commission and the AdHoc Committee, will come up with strong recommendations that will assist all of us to move ahead. But what I've seen with other commissions of inquiries in this country is that they are all good commissions of inquiries and they make good recommendations. Those recommendations are still to be implemented. Let me give you an example, Chris, of the Zondo Commission. He gave good recommendations that if at least half of them would be implemented, then we will be in a position to see progress. Chris Steyn (06:19.549)Talking about accountability in China when officials are convicted of corruption and collusion with criminal syndicates, they are executed. But here we are, we get excited if somebody actually gets arrested. We look at the Thembisa Hospital looting kingpin whose assets have been confiscated, but he's not arrested, not even. Quiet (06:45.565)I think you are raising a good issue, Chris. In South Africa, I don't know if we don't understand this thing called democracy. Let us look at the criminal justice system, the way they are operating. You look at the Asset Forfeiture Unit going all out, telling the public that we are confiscating the proceeds of crime. Why do you confiscate the proceeds of crime and not arrest the people that you found with this material that you say they are stolen. That boggles the mind. I do not understand. Maybe it's the publicity stunt by these institutions because you cannot go to a house and say, I confiscate everything because I suspect they are stolen, but you leave me intact. So who has stolen these things? And this is my house. These are my cars. Why are they not going to court? So I think the problem is in this country, we have good policies, we have got good systems, but when it comes to implementing these, it's not happening. Chris Steyn (07:59.643)Meanwhile, poor and starving people have to read how a looting kingpin buys a car for 52 million rand, how a murder mastermind has 2.5 million to bribe his way out of jail to get bail. Surely at some point, the people are going to say, gatvol, we are gatvole too. Quiet (08:23.431)Yeah, we are hoping that it will not reach that stage. But we can blame some of us for continuously voting for same parties that we are complaining about all the time after the elections. So who is to blame? We have the government that we deserve. But it is about time that when we see things happening, that we are not willing to see happening to our children. We do something about it because if we don't do that, our children will have no inheritance when we are no more. And it is the right time now that we say we want to put systems in place that will prepare the future of our children. Chris Steyn (09:16.229)And Professor, what systems would you like seen in place, put in place as a priority? Quiet (09:24.09)Yeah, I was listening to the former Minister of Police General Cele when he was saying he suggests that a structure, a body which will deal with corruption similar to the Scorpions must be reinstituted. That will bring some hope. And also the vetting of officials who are holding strategic positions should be one of the key priorities. You don't just appoint a person and you have not checked their background. For example, you cannot appoint a person without ethical clearance to an institution where finances will be his or her key responsibility. So as I indicated in my intro, Chris, we have enough leadership in this country. But unfortunately, those leaders are not given an opportunity to lead this country. So my hope is that there will be a clean out of the whole criminal justice system. You know, one of the concerning issue was that General Cele said most of the crime is organised from the prison. And that is clear. You can go to prison today. You will confiscate a lot of contraband that is not supposed to enter that space. But we know that the prison officials are not well paid, so it is easy for them to be captured by prisoners and start working for them instead of working for the government. Chris Steyn (11:11.675)Any last thoughts going forward, Professor? Quiet (11:17.039)Yeah, thanks, Chris. We are looking forward to all the other witnesses that will be testifying in these commissions. And hopefully something will be done to correct the wrongs that have been identified and wrong elements will be taken out of the system and rebuilding or reform of these institutions, especially the criminal justice system will begin as soon as possible. But if these recommendations are regarded as just recommendations, then we are doomed as a country. But hopefully, the men and women of integrity in this country will stand out and say, we will not allow corrupt officials to rule this country. Chris Steyn (12:10.237)Indeed. Thank you. Professor Dumisane Mabunda speaking to BizNews. I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, sir. Quiet (12:18.277)Thank you, Chris.

Prof. DQ Mabunda: Mkhwanazi has given SA a chance to fix itself

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