The Sunday Show - Renaldo Gouws: SA’s “Hollywood”-style politics: Cyril & Gayton & Co-stars…

In the latest Sunday Show on BizNews, Chris Steyn hosts Renaldo Gouws, former Parliamentarian, industrial psychologist and Podcaster to talk about another tumultuous week in South African politics. He examines the motives of the African National Congress (ANC) with the National Dialogue and its move to control the Parliamentary Inquiry into the allegations made by the whistleblowing KZN General “Lucky” Mkhwanazi. “…Ramaphosa has never been the President of South Africa. Cyril Ramaphosa has always tried to be the President of the ANC and trying to save the ANC.” Meanwhile, people have also become “gatvol” of the Government of National Unity (GNU). “So the boogeyman that has been created by political parties, especially the DA, is that we need to stay in the GNU because we're keeping the real enemies out. What real enemies, though, if you've already passed the BELA Act, the NHI Act, the Expropriation Act? What more is there that the opposition would have stood against if you didn't pass what you've passed?” Gouws delves deeply into the racist tweet storm that has hit Sports, Arts and Culture Minister and the Patriotic Alliance (PA) leader Gayton McKenzie. As for the visit to Iran by South Africa’s top SANDF general and the misaligned spin from DIRCO, the Minister and the President, he says “…this just reinforces the belief that Cyril Ramaphosa is the weakest president that we've had in this country”..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview .Chris Steyn (00:01.745)Welcome to the Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn. Sadly, Neil De Beer can't be with us today, but we do have Renaldo Gouws former Parliamentarian, industrial psychologist and Podcaster. Welcome Renaldo.Renaldo Gouws (00:20.056)Morning Chris, thank you so much for having me and firstly I just wanna send my thoughts and prayers to Neil and I hope that he feels better and I'm under no illusion that I have big shoes to fill today. So I'll try my best to ensure that I do justice to what Neil would have done today but yeah, my thoughts and prayers go out to him and may he hopefully be back next Sunday.Chris Steyn (00:46.311)Thank you, Renaldo. May we start with that racist tweet storm that has hit Patriotic Alliance leader, Gayton McKenzie, who is now being investigated by the South African Human Rights Commission after complaints from parties, political parties and others. I think you can compare notes with him.Renaldo Gouws (01:13.944)So it's very interesting because it's almost a year to the day when this drama dropped with Gayton McKenzie. Now, just for the viewers that might not have some background, a year ago, for those that don't know, I was implicated in the big K-word saga because of a video that I recorded in 2010 in which I used the K-word, but I didn't direct it at anybody. The word was used as a hyperbole to talk about the double standards of racism in South Africa. And ironically, that video is more accurate in today's terms than it has ever been, because it talks about a double standard when it comes to when a white person utters something and when a black person utters something. Now, Gayton McKenzie came into, well, the problem started when he went off to the OpenChats podcast. And ironically, he went after them for racism. Now, as we know, OpenCast is a, OpenChats podcast is a young group of black individuals that started that. So then he jumped on his pedestal and he said, no, we need to fight racism. And then people went, is it? Okay. So they did a little bit of research on him and then they found that he's also dropped the K word a couple of times. And then the whole saga started now with regards to what you know, needs to happen to this Minister. But what makes it even more confusing is now Gayton McKenzie identifies as a Coloured individual, but it seems when he uttered those words, he identified as a black person, which makes it really, really confusing. And it's a fascinating discussion point because I do believe that Coloured people had it the worst. Coloured people had it bad during Apartheid because they weren't white enough. And now it seems that Coloured people once again aren't black enough. So unfortunately, it seems that they are always, you know, the stepchild of the family. But ultimately, you know, Gayton McKenzie came out and said what he said and responded the way he did, in essence, saying that he wasn't directly racist towards somebody in the same way that in 2010, I wasn't directly racist towards somebody. Now, let me just say also, I do not believe that Gayton McKenzie should lose his position as the Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture.Renaldo Gouws (03:36.302)Neither should he lose his position as the Member of Parliament. And the reason for that is because ultimately we need to look at what is important in South Africa right now. What issues are we facing as a nation? If you look at racism and if you had to go and ask people, the average South African, not an ANC or an EFF or an MK or a DA follower, ask them what is the top priority? What are the top issues in South Africa? I can guarantee you that racism isn't in the top 10. We've got unemployment rate that on the broad definition is close to 45 percent, youth unemployment that is over 60 percent. We've got 84 murders that take place every single day in South Africa. And then, of course, we've got a violent sexual crime that takes place every few seconds in South Africa. So if you had to look at that and you had to ask yourself, is racism really a big issue in South Africa? Then when you look at the statistics, no, it's not.Now, should we allow racism to thrive in South Africa? Of course not, because we come from a history of where it oppressed a bunch of people and we still feel the effects of that to this day. Should people lose their jobs over it? I don't think so. The reason I say that is because you can feel however you want about Gayton McKenzie, but ultimately he's done relatively well as a Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture. If I had to ask you, Chris, can you mention the last five ministers of Sports, Arts and Culture? Would you be able to tell me? No, because they didn't really do anything. They were just there to collect the salary. So unfortunately, it seems we're going through these pains of getting rid of people that are quite vocal and outspoken because the ANC and the GNU government does not want people to rock the boat. I could see this with me. I mean, I. At least I wasn't the Weekend Special when it came to Members of Parliament. I lasted longer than some of the MK members of Parliament. I was scared about that. I didn't want to be the Weekend Special. But ultimately what happened was I feel that an injustice occurred because I had so much to offer with regards to going after what needed to happen in Parliament and to hold the ANC, the EFF, MK, whomever, hold them responsible for their failures.Renaldo Gouws (05:57.47)And unfortunately, they're trying the same thing with Gayton McKenzie now. I will say, though, that the double standards are quite prevalent because Gayton McKenzie initially supported me during my situation, but then he came out and condemned me and he jumped on the bandwagon of Cancel Culture. It looks like that bandwagon is now coming for him quite clearly. And I just believe that we've got far more important things to worry about. Yes, by all means, deal with the issue, deal with the word. But I want to know. Today 84 people will die in South Africa. Can you please indicate to me who is going to get hurt by what Gayton Mackenzie said today? Do they need to go and see a psychologist? Do they need to go and see a social worker? No, I don't think so. But ultimately you wanna get rid of somebody now that is doing a good job purely because of something they said a few years ago. And the last thing I'll say on this is it's also important to note the framing of the word. During 2010 to 2014, even the media used the word itself. They didn't say the K word, they used the full term when they spoke about racism and to illustrate that somebody uttered the word. So because of the Overton window that has shifted, you are now being condemned for things that back then was considered acceptable when you spoke about it, not necessarily directing it towards somebody, but you are now judged based on different time and unfortunately we are continuing that process time and time again and ultimately everybody will be cancelled because everybody's said something in the past that they regret. Anyway.Chris Steyn (07:38.663)Well, let's move on to the visit to Iran by our top general, during which he committed South Africa to joint military ventures. Now we've had reaction from the presidency, from DIRCO, from the Minister of Defense. They don't seem to be on the same page.Renaldo Gouws (08:00.695)Well, clearly not, because the one moment when the President comes out to say that this was definitely not approved by me, then I think within a day later, you've got the Minister that comes out and says, no, that was us. You know, it was delayed. And then it just clearly illustrates what's going on firstly within government, but secondly, within the ANC. I think that it is quite clear that there is a massive factional battle taking place within the ANC. And I think the entire South Africa is here for it. We are getting our popcorn. We're sitting ready and we want to watch this movie unfold. Unfortunately, you know, we are affected by it as South Africans. But I think that this is the weakest that the ANC has ever been. And to illustrate that point even further, you've got a rogue chief general that goes over there and then starts making political points. Now, listen, you can say whatever you want. Somebody in the military from the very first day know exactly what they can and cannot do. And if you get to the point of being a chief general, you should know that you should not make political statements or make statements on behalf of a country that you can't commit to. Now he's made a couple of statements that was quite problematic and I'll just reference it here to my left. He was endorsing Iran's stance on Gaza. He condemned Israel. And then his advocacy of common goals between South Africa and Iran. Now, that is not something that you want to hear from somebody in the military. That is not the place to talk about that. Of course, the political messaging was a big issue. But what it illustrates is that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. And this just reinforces, you know, the belief that Cyril Ramaphosa is the weakest president that we've had in this country. And that is quite a statement because I remember the end days of Jacob Zuma when people actually united, when the National Dialogue was actually working, when everybody was talking and saying, yes, we need to get rid of Jacob Zuma. Now, I'm pretty sure that when we eventually got rid of Jacob Zuma, we thought, okay, we now got rid of the worst that the ANC has to offer. Unfortunately, that was not the case because clearly we got Cyril Ramaphosa…Renaldo Gouws (10:23.211)…which I think people had a false sense of trust in because he was wealthy, because he was well-spoken. And you could see him being there from the days of Nelson Mandela because he was famously involved quite heavily with that whole process. And even when Mandela gave his very famous speech, the person that held the microphone for Nelson Mandela was Cyril Ramaphosa. He was standing there like a microphone holder. So you would think that, okay, that would have rubbed off on Cyril Ramaphosa. You know, he would have got some greatness from Thabo Mbeki and from Nelson Mandela. Unfortunately not. And the big issue here is that if you go and I please ask you viewers to go and verify this. Cyril Ramaphosa has never been the President of South Africa. Cyril Ramaphosa has always tried to be the President of the ANC and trying to save the ANC. You can verify that by going to his social media. Go on X and look at his description. It says: President of the ANC then he says President of South Africa now, please tell me what president in the world firstly say that: they are the president of their political party and then secondly say that they are president of the country. That shows his priorities - and unfortunately when you put the ANC first consistently then what has happened with this saga is exactly what's going to continuously happen and that is why at the moment, you've got a minister that is contradicting what the president is saying because his attention is on the ANC and trying to fix the ANC because of the MK threat, the uMkhonto weSizwe threat, instead of looking at our relationships that we should build around the world.Chris Steyn (12:08.199)Well, what did you make of the scenes at the National Convention in preparation for the National Dialogue?Renaldo Gouws (12:18.857)Yeah, I think that it is a perfect illustration of what is actually going on in South Africa. People shouting over one another. We don't know the rules of engagement. People that want to be heard, but that aren't heard. And then, of course, you've got Cyril Ramaphosa that comes out and makes the most outlandish statements. You know, it's a perfect example of why we need the dialogue, but we need the dialogue without the ANC. The ANC is the reason that in 2025, South Africa is where it is right now. Now, I've always had the saying that we need to start asking ourselves, where does the legacy of Apartheid end and where does the failure by the ANC government begin? That is a conversation that we have not had because at the moment, the ANC has got this Golden Goose called Apartheid that will always lay eggs for it because whenever they do something wrong, they can point back and say it's Apartheid. It's apartheid. Now, sometimes it doesn't work and then they have to go back to Jan van Riebeek and they have to go back to Colonisation. But ultimately, you have to ask yourselves, with the advent of modern technology, you know, the Internet in the early 90s, so much more could have been achieved under the last 31 years with the ANC government compared to the years of Apartheid. So with modern technology, the 31 years that the ANC has had is equivalent, if not more than the amount of years that South Africa was under Apartheid law. Now he comes out at the National Dialogue and then he starts talking about why so many black people are still impoverished and why so many white people are wealthy. Now, what I want to ask is, why don't you answer us? Why don't you give us the answer? Because you are ultimately the person that has been in charge and your political party has been the ones that have been in charge for the last 31 years. In 2025, more people are unemployed now than during the height of apartheid. More people are being killed now than during the peak of Apartheid. So ultimately, and this is definitely not me promoting or talking positively about Apartheid. Apartheid was an atrocious system. And the fact that you as a government in a democracy are still doing worse,Renaldo Gouws (14:41.505)than an atrocious Apartheid system that tells you how terribly you are doing. But we all knew from the get go that the National Dialogue is taking place one year before an election. Why? Why suddenly does the ANC now, one year before an election, want to have a National Dialogue? Well, I'll tell you, Chris, I'll tell you, Chris, why they want that to happen. The reason they want that to happen is because they want to promote the ANC because what you are going to find these National Dialogues, you're going to find a lot of people being bussed in. You're going to see hundreds of ANC people sitting there. They might be in the ANC regalia. We don't know. And ultimately, what you're going to see is you're going to see people talking positively about the change that the ANC have brought, and they're going to talk bad about all the other political parties and bring Apartheid up quite a lot. And unfortunately, the National Dialogue is just gonna be a confirmation that the ANC has been doing a good job for the last 31 years, because ultimately, the big change here, if I can just take a step back, is the ANC is petrified of uMkhonto weSizwe, because for many years, the ANC knew that nobody was really fishing in their pond. Communism, you know, black ideology and making it as big as possible, they knew that the EFF was a little small fish in that pond, they could handle it. But when uMkhonto we Sizwe came into the fold, they knew that their vote, their support base was going to be split. And that is exactly what happened. So now they have taken 700 million Rand to ensure that they can win next year's elections or at least do better than what they did in the national elections in 2024.Chris Steyn (16:32.113)Well, meanwhile, the African National Congress is seemingly also trying to micromanage the parliamentary inquiry into General Mkhwanazi’s allegations.Renaldo Gouws (16:45.129)Yeah, listen, I mean, with regards to that. So this GNU is so wonderful because it keeps on giving to the ANC and it keeps on taking away from the other partners, you know. And I mean, unfortunately, you know, I've got a little bit of a negative taste in my mouth still and a bad taste in my mouth with regards to the DA. But what I'll say is perhaps that termination of my membership was a blessing in disguise, because the DA that I'm looking at today is not the DA that I was part of in the 2024 elections and before that. Unfortunately, I feel that, you know, if you look at the breakdown of this committee, I believe five members, it consists of 11 members, five of which is ANC, then the DA has got two, uMkhonto we Sizwe has got two, the EFF has got one, and then I think there's one that is allocated for another smaller party.Now, the question I've got is how is it possible that the ANC managed to get five committee members on that and the DA only managed to get two considering that the DA is the second biggest partner in the GNU. Now, why also is the DA getting the same amount of committee chairs as the uMkhonto we Sizwe? I mean, that should be troubling. And then of course, they also got the chair position. Now, the chair position, I think when it comes to a split, gets the deciding vote. So the ANC has got five already. They just need to convince one other person to agree with them on this committee, and then they've got the majority. And I'm sure that they've already worked this out to the T. Now the problem of course is we've got parallel systems running now. We've got the commission that is taking place, and now we've got this ad hoc committee that's taking place. Now there's already...questions on whether or not this is going to be a fair process because the ultimately the big fish that needs to be caught here or the that the focus is on is Senzo Mchunu who is the the Minister of Police. Now he forms part of the ANC. So why would it make sense then to put the ANC Chair in that position because that's a conflict of interest because now you are trying to protect somebody within your organisation. It would have been better…Renaldo Gouws (19:07.634)…if the ANC would have just done the honourable thing, which I know it's almost like a contradiction saying that statement, but to give that position perhaps to one of the other political parties to sit on that. Ultimately though, this is just going to be another talk shop. Ultimately, no difficult questions is going to be asked. And I know that Glynnis Breytenbach and Ian Cameron from the DA is sitting on that and listen if there's one person that I don't want to soek kak with, that is definitely Glynnis Breytenbach. I briefly met her when I was in Parliament and I already decided then I'm not going to soek kak with her.… So and then Ian Cameron also, we were very good friends and still are. We still talk every now and then. So I'm very optimistic in what they can do. But unfortunately, the person that controls the mic is the is an ANC chairperson. So any good question that that Glynnis or Ian or anybody from the other political parties might have will be very limited based on that chairperson. And I don't understand why the DA and the EFF and MK didn't make more noise with regards to this committee and the chairperson. What is interesting though is in 2021, there was a very big poll that was done to ask whether you trust the government. You know, they asked various different questions. And one of the questions is, do you have faith in the members of Parliament? And the answer by that sample was 27 percent said that they well, 27 percent, they said they trusted Parliament. So, you know, the other 73 percent said, no, they don't trust the members of Parliament. And this is exactly the reason why people answer that, because you can see quite clearly that you can't be the judge, jury and the executioner in this instance. The ANC needs to let go of some power so that we can actually look at what is going on. But ultimately the goal for the ANC is to not divulge anything. They don't want to be put on that pedestal and then looked at and everybody attacking them. So they rather want to control that. And that is the same thing with this inquiry that is taking place. We've got The Hawks, we've got...Renaldo Gouws (21:27.104)…the Special Investigations Unit. Why did we not immediately go after these allegations to get the information, to go after and interview the people that is involved? Why did we give these individuals time to go back and regroup, get rid of the information, and ultimately wash their hands, and then millions upon millions, if not billions of rands will be wasted with this commission? And the same with the ad hoc committee. The question is why is there an ad hoc committee that already tells you that people aren't trusting the commission right before it started. So also what happens if the ad hoc committee has a different finding than the commission? It's just going to cause more confusion. So ultimately, what we are going to end up with is a report that a lot of people aren't going to trust or believe because of the lack of process that should have been followed, which was go after these individuals immediately because now intimidation can happen, SMSes and WhatsApps can go missing, phones can end up at the bottoms of the river, and then what? Ultimately, we're ending up here with the same questions and still no answers to it.Chris Steyn (22:42.277)Renaldo, lastly, if you could summarise the last week in South African politics.Renaldo Gouws (22:49.644)You know, the one thing that I love about South Africa is that you know that we always will have something to talk about when it comes to politics, because politics in South Africa is like Hollywood. You know, the Americans have got their Hollywood and the gossip with the stars in South Africa. We've got our gossip about our politicians. I think it has been a really interesting week for South Africa when it comes to politics. I think that if you can sense the vibe from people You can see a lot of people are uniting on social media especially, and that's the best barometer of how South Africa is feeling is by looking at what is happening on social media. And people are gatvol of the ANC and people are even gatvol of the GNU because at the moment South Africa does not have an actual opposition in Parliament. Our opposition is uMkhonto we Sizwe. Now that should scare you. If uMkhonto we Sizwe is the official opposition then that is a massive problem that we are facing. I think a lot of people want the GNU to kind of break up because it doesn't serve the purpose that it was supposed to serve. We are here one year later. The GNU has not achieved any of the goals. Yes, OK, you can get your passport faster. You can get your driver's license faster. You can get your ID faster. That is the positives of this GNU government. Unfortunately, more unemployment, more corruption, and just more issues that South Africa doesn't have to face on a day-to-day basis, but yet here we are. So ultimately, I know that a lot of people are very negative at the moment, but from being in politics for 13 years, I can tell you that this is the time that you should be most excited about what is happening in South Africa, because for the first time, the ANC does not have a majority. The ANC is trying to find their feet and they are still outplaying the opposition to an extent. But with every single day, we're going to find that the ANC is going to realise that they aren't a 50% plus one party anymore. And ultimately what's going to happen is we're going to see a lot more people on the ground speaking out against the ANC and wanting answers for why we are not where we are supposed to be 31 years later.Renaldo Gouws (25:14.88)But yeah, very exciting news week over the last week. And I want people to be positive because at least difficult questions are starting to be asked. And if I told you six years ago or even seven years ago that we will reach a point where the ANC won't have a majority and every single day when they open their mouths, they will lose more and more support and they will try and defend their past actions more and more. And ultimately they'll get to a point where there'll be a factional battle within the ANC, which is exactly where we are right now. And that'll split the ANC. MK is one heartbeat away from not existing as a political organisation anymore because they will eat each other up in uMkhonto we Sizwe once Jacob Zuma's heartbeat stops. So I'm not too worried about MK. And a lot of people are saying we need the GNU because otherwise MK is going to …Now I would like to make a statement over here and people can blame me in a couple of months if I'm not telling the truth but I firmly believe that we'll never ever see a GNU between the ANC and uMkhonto we Sizwe because those two political parties are fishing in the same pond and if there's a success in the GNU then uMkhonto we Sizwe take credit for that and the ANC can take credit for that. So ultimately the ANC doesn't want a situation where we have, you know, a political party that is directly opposed to them that will be able to take votes away from them. So the boogeyman that has been created by political parties, especially the DA, is that we need to stay in the GNU because we're keeping the real enemies out. What real enemies, though, if you've already passed the BELA Act, the NHI Act, the Expropriation Act? What more is there that the opposition would have stood against if you didn't pass what you've passed? So that is why I'm saying it's really important for the opposition to come in, but it's going to be interesting to see what plays out with regards to the GNU. I think a lot of people had have lost complete faith in the GNU based on the amount of people that are unemployed even more. I think the unemployment rate went up with zero point zero three percent So that is an absolute failure by the GNU…Renaldo Gouws (27:35.988)And then we've got the American saga that's playing out now. Also clearly demonstrating that there is no leadership in Parliament at the moment. The president doesn't know what he's doing and the GNU partners don't know what to do to counter what Cyril Ramaphosa is saying. Sorry, I know that it was supposed to focus on this week, but I just wanted to get it all out there because we are living in exciting times and ultimately things are always at that point where it looks like it can't get any worse and then suddenly things start getting better. So if there are pessimists out there and you are upset with what's happening in South Africa, you are completely within your right to feel that way. But just know that South Africa has done this many times where we have to hit rock bottom before we start realising that we can do better. And I think that is what's needed for us to get rid of terrible policies like broad based Black Economic Empowerment and the racial quotas and all of these things that the government wants to implement and continue to implement. So ultimately, let's see what happens, but every week is an exciting week when it comes to talking about politics in South Africa.Chris Steyn (28:50.189)Absolutely. And thank you for joining me on the Sunday Show. That was Renaldo Goos with me, Chris Steyn, on BizNews’ Sunday Show. Thank you so much, Renaldo.Renaldo Gouws (29:01.164)Thank you so much, Chris, and once again, thanks to all your viewers.Chris Steyn (29:06.009)And Neil, we're thinking of you.Renaldo Gouws (29:08.298)Yes, please. We want you back next week, Neil.

The Sunday Show - Renaldo Gouws: SA’s “Hollywood”-style politics: Cyril & Gayton & Co-stars…

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