Alec Hogg (00:00): Comrades got into an issue with a board that was giving tenders to pals, and terrible misgovernance. It was not surprising that Rory, as a veteran he's run 12 Comrades, was pulled into the fray. He helped out there, and today the Comrades Marathon Association is in a very different position. But we're not talking today about Comrades. We're talking today about Swimming South Africa, and indeed other sporting bodies where there are now obvious issues of poor governance and, in fact, huge allegations of corruption and money that has just been pilfered from the athletes themselves, as well as from those organisations that sponsored them.

Rory, the question, I suppose, is that the runners cleared the house themselves, but Swimming South Africa doesn't seem to have been able to do that. They had to wait for people in Switzerland, an integrity panel, to move forward, until they now started to make their voices heard. And you think of Tatjana Smith and what she had to go through. And now she's been very vocal, interestingly enough, also coming out of retirement, to maybe give that whole story more of a profile.

But let's just start with Comrades and the board. You told BNC#8, where you were a keynote speaker, that you were asked to get involved because other members of the Comrades association, other runners, said that those who were on the board were steering tenders to their chommies. And what happened then? And where are we now on Comrades, before we go into the other issues?

Rory Steyn: Sure. Well, I'm very happy to report, Alec, and good afternoon to all our tribe, those listening both live and later. Thank you for the invitation. I just happened to be in Hermanus for a family member's 21st this weekend, and here I sit.

So Comrades is in a very good position as we now sit here, and we fixed it in a mere two years, because it was only in 2024 when the then, recently resigned, president of KZN Athletics issued a directive, because the race is of course held in that province, that in order to be a member of, and vote at, even attend our own AGM, you had to be domiciled in the province of KwaZulu-Natal. Because that would then centralise power where he wanted it, and exclude about 70% of the membership.

And that was the proverbial last straw. And when the camel's back broke, it broke at a special general meeting that the members called. And that's the big difference, I would say, Alec, between where we as Comrades are as an association and where Swimming South Africa finds itself, and many of the other federations. Because they pushed it too hard.

Alec Hogg: Now, they don't have recourse to... No, no, I'm talking about the board of Comrades. So it wasn't the board?

Rory Steyn: No, no. So that was one individual who was an ex officio member of the Comrades board. But most of the malfeasance of that old Comrades board revolved around vote rigging. It was gerrymandering, it was vote buying.

The only way you can be a member of the Comrades Marathon Association is to run it. So you need at least one finish, or you volunteer. So they very cleverly went and signed up a whole bunch of people from the local community as volunteers, gave them something to do on race day, paid their membership, bussed them to the AGM, gave them a list and said, "Vote for these people and we'll give you dinner and a T-shirt." The old tactic.

So this is what happens when politicians see the honeypot, pots plural, that are in sport, and they want to get their fingers in there. So while ever, Alec, and this is the problem at Swimming South Africa clearly, while ever you have people in those sports associations who are there for themselves and their back pockets, rather than the interests of that sport, then you're going to get this.

So we should actually start with the question: why do we need sporting administrators, and why do we need these federations and organisations? Because their only goal should be to get our athletes developed to the best of their ability, and get them winning medals at Olympics and world championships.

Alec Hogg (04:39): I'm getting something here. R.W. Johnson, the late R.W. Johnson, said there was no such thing as an elective conference at the ANC. It was an auction. So now, if that happens to get the president of the ANC, and in those days anyway the president of the country, then you would imagine it goes all the way down. And then I have to ask you: where do these officials who sit on the boards of sporting bodies come from? You would think, logically, swimmers would become the board members of Swimming South Africa, runners would become the board members of the Comrades Association, so on with every other sport. But it doesn't. It might even be an extension of the ANC elective conference, where those positions, which pay quite well, go to pals.

Rory Steyn: Exactly. Or are bought, and that is where the problem comes. So if you go back, and I don't like to say "in the old days", because everything wasn't always hunky-dory in the old days either. Previously, it was an amateur era, Alec. So sporting federations... you think of Donnie Malone, who headed athletics for many years, he was an athlete. You know, Danie Craven, your Doc, I mean, who headed the international rugby body, was a Springbok. You know, these were people passionate about the sport, and those are the people we need. That's why I was delighted to hear that Tatjana may just put her hand up.

Alec Hogg: She has put her hand up.

Rory Steyn: I'm so glad. I'm delighted to hear that.

Alec Hogg: But who's going to get her there?

Rory Steyn: Yeah, that's the problem. That's the issue that they have. We as Comrades are fortunate, because Mick Winn and a few of the guys back in the day, in the late '50s and '60s, when Comrades was becoming this behemoth and it was becoming very difficult to organise by a handful of people, it was very amateur, they asked a running club, Collegiate Harriers, to become the organisers. And this was, pardon me, this was decades before there were things such as provincial and national sporting federations that oversaw these things. And a membership association was formed. And that's our recourse.

We, as the board of the Comrades Marathon Association, didn't even feel confident enough to make those decisions that people elected us to make ourselves. We thought, this is a watershed moment. If we break away from Athletics South Africa and KwaZulu-Natal Athletics, and as my colleague Barry Holland put it, we row our own boat, then we'd better have a proper mandate. So we took it to an SGM and got a clear clarion call from the members, 80% of whom said: Comrades first. Get away from those so-called sports administrators, who are nothing more than politicians dressed up as sports administrators, that add very little value, if any. Get away from them and let us determine our own future.

And Alec, my prediction, and I'm not a politician, but my prediction is that this is the way sport is going to go, because the sponsors want nothing to do with those greedy people. They want nothing to do with the malfeasance and all the nonsense going on. They want to know that if we associate our brand with this event or this federation, that it's clean.

Remember back in the SASCOC days, and Graeme Joffe had been banging that drum for years about how corrupt SASCOC was, and still is, I believe. And yet the Paralympic Games, where Andy Scott headed the Paralympics, Mercedes-Benz went there and Nedbank went there, and all the money went to the Paralympics, because they knew that they could trust those administrators. They were not trusting of SASCOC and the athletics federation. And they've just suspended James Moloi, the president of Athletics South Africa. They've suspended Hendricks and...

Alec Hogg: But that sounds good for Gayton. Is he finally getting involved?

Rory Steyn: Well, I'm not so sure it's Gayton. I would like you to ask him that question when he comes tomorrow, because Roland Schoeman says that he had a conversation with Gayton, and Gayton undertook to him that he would deal with Swimming South Africa, and I don't think he has.

And I just have to pause there, Alec. I was at that pool in 2004 in Athens when the Awesome Foursome won that gold medal and broke the world record in the 4x100. And Roland was the first one. He started it. He went into that water, he came out with his nose in front, and we never surrendered that lead. And we put away some of the best swimmers ever: Phelps, Ian Thorpe, Hackett. We stuck those guys away. And that Awesome Foursome was never supported.

Rory Steyn (09:26): I mean, listen to what he said: called back from his college in America to come and have a foot scan, not trusting the doctors there. I mean, how is that acting in the best interests of our athletes? And those are the things that we cannot have.

Alec Hogg: I think in your opening conversation you answered that question, and it was something that never occurred to me before. But the people who are running these associations are not from that sport. And you can see it now. You look at some of these individuals, and clearly they did their time in the ANC and they were loyal cadres who then got given sweeties this side and that side, which is the way the ANC operated, probably still rolls. And the people who lose out of all of that are the athletes. And then if somebody starts waving a flag about this, like Graeme Joffe did, well, there are enough vested interests getting enough of the sweeties that they want to bump him off.

Rory Steyn: Exactly. And look what's happening now these days in our country. I mean, it's all over the news, about these killings, the Madlanga Commission witnesses that were taken out. It's likely that he wouldn't have survived it.

And then you look, Alec, and even some of the funding that our athletes and the federations do get comes from the Lottery. And the Lottery itself is a cesspool of corruption.

But then you compare it to another country. So let's just take Australia. Now, I know the chef de mission from Australia. Anna Meares is a friend of mine. She is their most decorated Olympian, a track cyclist, and she is the person that takes the Australian delegation to an Olympic Games. She goes and plans the logistics, and she's in charge of all of that. She's the face of the Olympians. That organisation exists for no other reason than to give every Australian Olympian the best chance of medalling.

The only "medalling" we have here is of the M-E-D-D-L-I-N-G type, where they get their hands into the cookie jar, and the athletes are not just forgotten, they are abused. Look at Tatjana. How can you withhold her money for a year and then call the interest that you as an organisation scored a management fee? Where does that ever compute? And why isn't she supported to the hilt? Why does a swimsuit become such a big issue, instead of the federation standing up and saying to whomever, "Absolutely not, our swimmer will swim in this, because that gives her the best chance of winning a medal"? And she wins those medals despite those clowns.

Alec Hogg: Just going back to your bodyguard years, and the fact that since then you've been running a security company and protecting some of the highest-profile people on the planet: why was it, from just your instinct, that Comrades could fix itself and Swimming South Africa couldn't?

Rory Steyn: Very simply, Alec. Very simply, because we are a membership association. And the only way, as I've said, that you can become a member of the CMA is by finishing at least one race or by volunteering. And then you pay a membership fee. It's a mere R100 per annum, for goodness' sake.

Alec Hogg: But you've got to finish your Comrades.

Rory Steyn: You've got to finish your Comrades.

Alec Hogg: That's quite a hard ball.

Rory Steyn: You can't just sit somewhere here and decide, "I want to join." And that membership... we are fiercely protective of this extraordinary event. And I mean, we celebrate our centenary next year, 100 years of Comrades, started in 1921, the same time as what is the greatest rivalry...

Alec Hogg: South Africa-New Zealand rugby also harks back to 1921. It must have been quite a year.

Rory Steyn: Yes. Started by a World War I veteran to honour his comrades in arms. And the only reason the centenary race wasn't in 2021 was because of the four World War II years, there was no Comrades, and the two Covid years, there was no Comrades. And now in 2027 we get to celebrate our centenary under the tagline of "The Greatest Story Ever Run".

There is so much history there, Alec. We had segregation. Women were excluded. Black people were excluded. All of those changes happened, as Bruce Fordyce ran with a black armband to protest that, not withdrawing from the...

Alec Hogg: In the '70s?

Rory Steyn: In the '80s. '81, my matric year. I thought he was an idiot. What did I know? This naive kid brought up under the apartheid days. And now I sit...

Rory Steyn (14:10): Well, he's part of the Vision for '27, which is the subcommittee of the board responsible for what we celebrate next year. And we've got some wonderful plans. We're so excited. And we've got a board who cares. Every single one of that board is a runner. They've run that race. It's wonderful. And anyway, we said we wouldn't speak about Comrades, but I can't help myself. Next year we celebrate 100 years, the Greatest Story Ever Run, and we're going to have the biggest field ever: 28,000.

Alec Hogg: 28,000 people. Goodness. And a lot of them, I suppose, are already starting to train.

Rory Steyn: Yeah.

Alec Hogg: Let's get back to swimming. So certainly on Swimming South Africa, it's quite clear that the administrators do not serve the swimmers. But how do you change that?

Rory Steyn: Yeah, so I don't know the answer to that, because they don't have what we have. They don't have a membership body that can call an SGM, a special general meeting.

Alec Hogg: And what's that?

Rory Steyn: So outside of your annual AGMs, where... every association should have an AGM, we elect the board that governs the association. We have a general manager and a race director as permanent employees. The board don't get involved in those things, because there is conflict of interest danger there. So we let our...

Alec Hogg: What's that conflict?

Rory Steyn: So if a board member is kind of telling a general manager, "Listen, you know, this scaffolding tender, I've got a mate who can do that," that's bad news, because then if his mate gets the job, is he getting a backhander? That's purely an example. So the board of Comrades are not allowed to get involved operationally.

Alec Hogg: But that's surely, we know now from what Graeme Joffe wrote about, and from what we see in the different sports associations, that's the power. That's the whole point. You get the job on the board so that you can generate income, so that you can steer the tenders.

Rory Steyn: And this board does not do that. We run audited, structured, governance-compliant RFPs, you know, pure tender processes.

Alec Hogg: Like you do in business.

Rory Steyn: Like you do in business. And if there is any... what do you call it? When you're right at the beginning of the agenda of a board meeting, you ask for attendance and welcome, and then you ask whether there are any objections and/or conflicts, and then you declare them.

For example, I declared the fact that when we wanted to create a centenary logo and a centenary tagline, which happens to be "The Greatest Story Ever Run", we put that out to digital agencies. And we have a digital agency in our business. And I said to them, "You might want to throw your hat in the ring there." And I immediately declared that to the board, that I had told those people. And then I said to them...

Alec Hogg: Did they win the tender?

Rory Steyn: They did. And I said to them, "I cannot speak to you on anything regarding this tender until it's awarded." It's just that they were very good, and they got the African beadwork symbolism bang on, and they created this beautiful logo. You know, the fact is there's no subterfuge. There's nothing hidden, and there certainly isn't any bribing of the people who make the decision on that.

But the point I was making, Alec, is that Swimming South Africa does not have a body of members that can call a special general meeting and hold a board to account.

Alec Hogg: So who decides who sits on the boards?

Rory Steyn: The members elect that board at the AGM. So every November, like any organisation or business, we have an annual general meeting...

Alec Hogg: I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about Swimming South Africa.

Rory Steyn: You see, that's what I don't know. So it comes through... I don't know whether it comes through clubs. For example, in rugby it comes through the clubs. Let's take provinces. So here we are in the Western Cape. They've got any number of rugby clubs, the most powerful, of course, being Stellenbosch University. So they would then vote delegates onto the Western Province board, and the Western Province board would then have delegates sitting on the board of SARU. And I can only assume that that's how Swimming South Africa works, and that's where I think all of the jockeying happens, at that level. Whereas we have a membership. We can call an SGM. Not the board: we as members can.

Alec Hogg: So what should, from what you've told us so far...

Rory Steyn (18:49): Yeah.

Alec Hogg: What should Gayton McKenzie be working on, as the Minister of Sport, on his fix for something that's looking pretty embarrassing? If it was your portfolio, you'd know how he feels.

Rory Steyn: Without understanding those exact elective pathways, I would say that what you need is... Cricket South Africa did this a while ago. I served Cricket South Africa for 27 years, and they went through some rocky roads, but there's none of this chaos going on in cricket. You know, here we sit, planning...

Alec Hogg: What did they do in cricket?

Rory Steyn: They got rid of the majority of the board members being executive, and they got independent board members. The majority of the board were independent board members that weren't attached to a province, so they didn't have a constituency that they were representing and kind of operating on its behalf, if that's even approaching decent English. So they got independent directors, people with the proper skills, business, finance and otherwise, to sit there and just keep an eye on that. But these are people who loved cricket. And that's what swimming needs.

So if I were Gayton, and that was your question, if I were Gayton, I would get a constitutional change made. How you do that, I can't answer. I know how we can do that in Comrades: you have to have a majority at an AGM, propose the constitutional amendments, vote on them, do it all properly. A structure where there is a majority of independent board members, overseers.

Alec Hogg: What's independent?

Rory Steyn: So they're not attached to any federation in swimming. They don't have a constituency or an agenda, but they must come from there. Like Tatjana Smith would be the perfect one. She is an Olympian...

Alec Hogg: I think she's our most decorated.

Rory Steyn: She is. Sitting there and giving back to the sport. Now, how you achieve that, I can't advise him, because we've got this wonderful benefit of a members' association.

Alec Hogg: Did you see the speech that the acting chairman of Swimming South Africa made at the short course championships in Pietermaritzburg? It was put on one of the business channels and I watched it. There really wasn't much to enthuse about.

Rory Steyn: Was it politics?

Alec Hogg: Well, he said, "We're sorry, and we're going to fix things." And talk is cheap.

Rory Steyn: Exactly. Talk is cheap. So I just wanted to get back to Roland, because I was trying to tell you that I was there in Athens in 2004. And that guy has been consistently saying, almost since even when he was swimming, because Roland's career went way further, he was like the original Chad le Clos that just kept on swimming those times. And he'd been calling for change at Swimming South Africa since the mid-2000s, and he's still doing it now. Now he's coming out in support of Tatjana. And I'm so glad that you got him on, because he has been a consistent voice. And he's a person who suffered personally at the hands of these administrators, who wouldn't accept a scan from a doctor in the USA and flew him back just to have one here that said the same thing. Who does that to a human being?

Alec Hogg: There's a question here, and by the way, you can put your questions onto the YouTube channel and Ryan will pick them up and send them through to me. It's from Justin Finn, who says: "The difference between Comrades and Swimming South Africa is SwimSA has the right to appoint Springbok colours. If the new water polo federation were to choose its own Springboks, there would be no issue." Now that's interesting, because, as you know, water polo has broken away.

Rory Steyn: Broken away, yeah. But like Comrades, a little bit like Comrades, they decided to row their own boat, and broke away from Swimming South Africa to form a separate water polo body. I think it's WPA, whatever it is. But now they need to affiliate to the international body so that they can select and send a representative team to the Olympics and/or world championships. So in order to get that recognition, that is a very different thing from us, because we don't need that. Our distance is what they call a non-... I've just lost the train of thought. It's a non-...

Alec Hogg: So... but let's just go back to that, because there's an important issue here. Water polo would then get hold of the global body.

Rory Steyn: Yes.

Alec Hogg (23:33): The global body has already said, "Hang on, we don't like what's going on in Swimming South Africa," and as a consequence they have suspended the chairman and the chief executive. And that was because of someone in Switzerland doing the work. But does it not then open the door for swimmers to go straight to that association as well and say, "Hey, we want to have a different approach to our sport"?

Rory Steyn: Well, they would have to organise themselves into an alternate body, because World Aquatics won't countenance direct approaches from individual athletes. They want a national federation. And I think there's sense in that, Alec. I think, for the sake of proper governance, provinces should have representation on the national sport federation, in this case Swimming South Africa. And Swimming South Africa needs to be affiliated with World Aquatics, which in turn is a member of the International Olympic Committee. So that there's structure and it's done properly.

So now that they've suspended Hendricks and Klaas... the swimmers, and everybody who has swimming's interests at heart, really what they should do, if it's possible, is form a breakaway, like we did a breakaway from Athletics South Africa. And that breakaway body, like the water polo one, then approaches World Aquatics and says, "Could we be recognised? Could we then be the body who selects a team and sends it to the world championships?"

Alec Hogg: There are other associations in sport that are also now getting exposed. Where does that pressure come from?

Rory Steyn: Well, that's what I meant by this watershed moment. So I think probably Comrades is leading the way here. And Two Oceans is doing a similar thing, but Two Oceans don't have a membership association that can vote whether or not to affiliate with Western Province Athletics, like we did.

So I think what's going to happen is that pressure is going to come from somewhere. South Africans are, as we know, very, very creative, and we don't give up easily. They are going to find a way to sideline the self-servers and the corrupt, and the people that have, you know, dug their hands deeply into those cookie jars to line their pockets or serve themselves in whatever way, and get rid of them through whatever mechanics exist in their sport. And it might take years, like it has with water polo. I mean, water polo missed the Paris Olympics in 2024 because they didn't have representation at World Aquatics level.

Alec Hogg: Rory, this is like a virus that's infected the whole country. We see from Madlanga what's happening in the police. But if you were to put a similar focus on politics... Surely, it's almost certain, if these are political animals who've been put into sports associations. If you were to look at the politicians who are in politics, there's a heck of a lot of self-serving that goes on there, rather than serving those who put them there.

Rory Steyn: And I hate to say it, you expect that in politics. Let's just put it this way: you shouldn't expect it in sport, because sport should be run by sports people. But it's not. It is run by greedy politicians.

Alec Hogg: Or somebody's mates. And you've seen this up close.

Rory Steyn: Well, look at SASCOC. How long has Joffe been banging the drum about those guys?

Alec Hogg: But why do you say he's right? What have you seen?

Rory Steyn: Well, they flew themselves business class, with their wives, while the athletes sat in the back. I've seen sports teams, current rugby teams, where the coaching staff will sit in the back and give the big heavy forwards the business class seats, because they're the ones that have to get onto that field and play for 80 minutes. Maybe when you come back, the coach will say, "Okay, I'll take the flatbed now, because we're going back and not to play." That's what should happen. Administrators should serve the athletes, or in rugby's case the players, or they're still athletes, aren't they? Serve the players.

And if you are a member of that association or federation for any other reason than to serve the players and get them to perform at their best, to serve the sport in the interests of that sport... if you're not doing that, then you shouldn't be there.

Alec Hogg: How many of these administrators actually come from the sport itself?

Rory Steyn: There are many of them, but nowhere near enough. As soon as you get a politician who sees the opportunity, who sees the honeypot, you're in trouble...

Rory Steyn (28:24): ...because he or she is going to find a way to work out the legitimate guys, frustrate them out. I mean, this guy from KZNA, his plan was, at an AGM of all the running clubs in Pietermaritzburg, when they would try and get rid of him by voting him off KZNA, he would drag that meeting on for nine or 11 hours, so that the people were really so fed up that they would go home if it was an in-person meeting, and get offline if it was an online meeting.

Alec Hogg: But how did he benefit?

Rory Steyn: Because he kept power then. So he kept his little cabal there, made sure that they stayed. So when the election came up at the end of the meeting, there weren't enough people to vote him off.

Alec Hogg: And why has it taken so long for the athletes to raise their heads?

Rory Steyn: It's a great question, and I have to, as I've done before on this subject, hold my hand up and say that, as a member of the CMA, I and most of us were asleep at the wheel. We weren't paying sufficient attention to who was being elected at those AGMs. We were very, very complacent, Alec. Some of us, me included, let our membership lapse, just because we didn't pay attention to them, until we picked up that this guy now wants to prevent us from voting at our own AGM. So then it needed an issue.

Alec Hogg: It needs that spark.

Rory Steyn: Overreach. It needs complete overreach. And what it needs to wake up complacent members is for there to be an issue, a bit of controversy or whatever, to say, "Hey, hang on, what's going on here?" And then, you know, guys start to talk. So people were flying down from Joburg, up from Cape Town. People flew in from overseas to attend that special general meeting, where we dealt with the constitutional changes that needed to be made, one of which was simply to allow us to attend our own AGM virtually. That didn't exist. And this guy would have held our feet to the fire and said, "No, you can't attend, can't vote at your AGM", of an association that predates him and KwaZulu-Natal Athletics. It's preposterous. So you can only push a guy so far, Alec, before we say, "Hang on a minute, we're not standing for this."

Rory Steyn (30:50): And then, of course, he goes and assaults somebody and gets criminally charged and suspended. And then at last he finally had the good grace to resign. So we're rid of that one.

Alec Hogg: But if you look at swimming, they've got a high-performance centre in Franschhoek, which is only good for frogs at the moment. It's at least R50 million. We don't know the exact number, but at least R50 million has gone into it.

Rory Steyn: Well, it's gone into the project, which has gone nowhere.

Alec Hogg: What more does it take for the swimming people to wake up?

Rory Steyn: So now, you mentioned that integrity unit from World Aquatics, and it's probably them that will have to scratch there, because if they put global federation money, World Aquatics money, into that, then they've got a right to ask the questions: where was that money spent? You can still ask the questions here, Alec, but as we know, we've got many ways of obfuscating and dragging on those inquiries that don't go very far. They don't do very much.

So if those guys come and they say, "Hang on, but we do actually see malfeasance here"... they've already suspended Fritz and Adriaanse. That's progress. Now, what you've got to be very careful of is who you elect. And I don't know what that process is, because I'm not a swimmer. What is the process to replace Fritz and Adriaanse? That's where you now need to get a clean broom. A new broom sweeping clean, like we did at Comrades.

Alec Hogg: And who would manage that broom? Is that a Gayton McKenzie?

Rory Steyn: No, I don't think so.

Alec Hogg: He doesn't have the power?

Rory Steyn: He has to leave that business to SASCOC. And SASCOC is itself compromised.

Alec Hogg: How many of these officials have now been suspended? Not how many, but it seems like just about every second day.

Rory Steyn: I asked that question of AI. So since March of this year, so a mere six months ago: James Moloi, ASA, Athletics South Africa president, suspended, as well as the CFO, Vinesh Maharaj, from SASCOC. Barry Hendricks, president of SASCOC, suspended. And then we come to our friends that we've mentioned already, Fritz and Adriaanse. Karate: Sunny Pillay suspended, as well as two named board members there. Netball South Africa: Cecilia Molokwane, former NSA president, suspended by World Netball. These are all in the last six months. Football...

Rory Steyn (33:15): We've still got Danny Jordaan there. We've still got those others there, the finance chief there, Gronie Hluyo. They're still there. They haven't been suspended. Ongoing criminal cases that are just being investigated, but not suspended.

But that just... I mean, what does that say, Alec? There's clearly a pattern. And the pattern that I'm seeing is that it is the greed of people that see sport as a way to enrich themselves, which is the antithesis of what you need in those positions. Because those people, as I've said, should be there for no other reason than to serve the sport, promote it, get our athletes the best, and develop the youngsters. Where's the next tranche coming through?

Were it not for the bursaries that American universities give our swimmers, I don't think that we would be developing our swimmers at the rate that we are. We've got fantastic swimmers in this country. Look at the way they won medals at the Commonwealth Games a few months ago, you know?

And the same thing should be happening in athletics. Now, Athletics South Africa is a seriously failed sporting federation. They're not developing our athletes. They're selecting teams and they're holding championships, but it's not driven by people that know how this is done. People that previously won Olympic medals, and you can think of them. You can think of Hezekiel Sepeng, and you can think of Hestrie Cloete, and those people that made our country so proud in 2004 in Athens, in 2008 in Beijing, in London. And, well, Chad le Clos, just an absolute South African legend, winning medals.

Alec Hogg: I wonder why he hasn't stood up in the swimming story.

Rory Steyn: Well, I think because he's still competing. So it's very difficult to do that, which is what Roland said, you know, he had to be careful.

Alec Hogg: Tatjana is not competing. Is she?

Rory Steyn: She is. She's just broken, or swum faster than, the world record in the short course.

Alec Hogg: No way.

Rory Steyn: Yeah, she has. 28 seconds. Not supported by published results.

Alec Hogg: You've just taught me something I didn't know. I thought that she had...

Rory Steyn: She's come back from early retirement. Good for her.

Alec Hogg: And next year... She's not scared, so why is Chad?

Rory Steyn: Well, Chad is targeting Los Angeles 2028. You know, he's said as much. He thinks he can still medal.

Alec Hogg (35:39): So interesting. Well, Rory, it's fascinating having you in the studio on a subject that's clearly very personal.

Rory Steyn: I have enjoyed it. I'm sorry that I haven't been able to answer every question, because I simply don't know, and I'd rather say when I don't know. I do just want to encourage every honest sporting administrator and athlete who has the interest of their sport at heart to please take a stand. Gather around you people that you know share those interests, and let's just get rid of the rot, whatever that takes. And I'm sure that Gayton is going to be fully on board with that.

Alec Hogg: Yes, he correctly says he must work through SASCOC.

Rory Steyn: That's where I would start, Mr Sports Minister. SASCOC is rotten to the core. You should get rid of those folks and get proper people in there who have nothing to gain. I mean, they are our Olympic sports confederation and Olympic committee. They are responsible for doing whatever we can do to make our athletes successful at the very highest levels, like the Springboks are, previous record, previous result notwithstanding.

Alec Hogg: Rory Steyn, who was Mandela's bodyguard and is a member of the board at the Comrades. He is a regular keynote speaker at the business conferences. And I think if there's one thing you can take away from this today, to all those sports administrators, parents of kids who are coming through the system, and we all know that it takes enormous sacrifice to get to even national colours, let alone international competition: just remember that Comrades has done it. The Comrades Marathon Association has done it. They have reformed and cleaned up, and are looking forward to a more illustrious future. There's no reason why other sports bodies, with a little bit of backbone, can't follow. I'm Alec Hogg from BizNews.com.

Rory Steyn: Thank you, Alec.

Rory Steyn on who really runs South African sport