Alec Hogg: Corné Mulder leads the Freedom Front Plus. He's also, as we always tell you, the longest serving Member of Parliament in South Africa. Lots of experience, lots of background. He's seen it all. And that's what gives him such a wonderful perspective on what's happening, which many newcomers to the scene think of as something that's brand new. But I do think what we're going to talk about today is brand new. Two days ago, well, yesterday morning for our time when we woke up, the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio announced visa restrictions on still to be named individuals rather than sanctioning South Africa as a whole, sanctioning these individuals. Now, this is to do with the expropriation without compensation, BEE, and the "Kill the Boer" chant that has been flagged by the Americans and in particular the White House as well. And they say they want changes to it. What is interesting about this was immediately after Marco Rubio's announcement, or the next morning anyway, when we woke up, the US ambassador to South Africa, Brent Bozell, confirmed that this was only the first step. So Corné Mulder's with us. I don't know if you've seen anything like this before, Corné, but it really does put us in the league of Colombia and South Sudan. They've had these kind of sanctions on them.

Corné Mulder: Yes, thank you Alec, and thank you for the opportunity. It's really tragic that South Africa now finds ourselves in that kind of company, and it all goes back to the positioning of South Africa, and it also goes back to how the ANC sees international relations. I spoke at our manifesto launch to some journalists afterwards on Saturday, and in that interview I said I'm predicting that there are steps going to be taken in the next three months. That was on Saturday, and on Tuesday, basically, the first of those came through. And the reason for that is that the United States have been very tolerant and very patient for a long time. You must remember it was in June of last year, 2025, when we visited the White House, where we were given those five asks by the United States. We came back, we had a press conference, I conveyed that. I subsequently tried to get hold of the president in terms of meeting with him. They were trying to play games and pushing me around. Eventually, I did see him, and I conveyed those kinds of things to him. But there was no seriousness from the ANC side, or from the presidency side, to address these things. And now it's got some consequences to the detriment of some individuals, and that was to be expected.

Alec Hogg: I wonder — I'm talking now from the business community, where Cyril Ramaphosa operated in the business community for a long time, and he's well known, Anglo American, MTN. People who worked with him know that he just can't take a decision. He's a very amicable guy, he smiles nicely, he's terribly charming, but he has been well known as a man who does not take decisions. Isn't that putting him in an impossible situation? Because you've got a guy who can't take decisions, and Donald Trump saying, I want decisions now, please.

Corné Mulder: If you can't take decisions, you should not be the leader and you should not be the president. It doesn't work that way. You are not a facilitator, you are not a chairperson of a meeting, you are the leader, you are the president of the country, and you should give leadership. And unfortunately that is true in terms of his style of leadership. We've seen that through both of his terms. During the first term, people said, well, maybe he's in a difficult position, let's wait until he gets into a second term, then he'll be able to assert himself. Well, the second term has come and almost gone, and we didn't see that. And specifically we've gone through this issue as well. But I think it's more than that. I don't expect that the president is going to take a decision, whether it's his style or not. The ANC has got a kind of approach that says we do not want to accommodate the United States, we are not going to give in to any of those requests or demands, and they are thinking that they should just wait it out. Some of them will respond to say, President Trump's got another two years and four months to go until the end of his term, we must just sit back and wait it out and then we'll see what happens after that. I know that is not the position of our ambassador to the United States. I've had two meetings with him. He's trying his level best to try and normalise relations. But as long as this is the case from South Africa's point of view, the United States is not going to sit back and just be taken for a ride. And that is why these steps were taken. And I think the more important thing is that the utterances by the ambassador of the United States, Brent Bozell, made it very clear: he said these steps are going to be severe and to the detriment of some people in South Africa, and these are only the first steps. So I think in the next three months we may see some more things happening. My assessment, and I think what is very good and positive, is that these are not just blanket sanctions against South Africa, South Africans or business. It will be targeted sanctions against certain individuals.

Alec Hogg: Isn't this a bad thing for you — and I'll just put it into terms that I understand. Your party has stayed out of a lot of the fracas that's been going on. The DA's had terrible infighting, the MK has always had infighting, and the ANC is imploding. So we've got an election in eight weeks' time. It could be interpreted that this is a lifeline to the ANC. It comes at a beautiful time for them, that they can turn around in the elections, where they were going to get a real hiding, and say, you see, these big bad Americans are actually now trying to tell us what to do in South Africa, and perhaps stir up some interest on that side. Is it, in other words, the timing just before the elections?

Corné Mulder: Yes, it is possible, it could have a detrimental effect in that sense. However, I think South Africans, and I think traditional people also in the black community, have moved beyond that. The comrades, and those who have benefited from black elite enrichment, and who had the contracts and those kinds of things, they are crying out like nothing before. But I think ordinary South Africans are sick and tired of the fact that the ANC has positioned South Africa with all the rogues in the world. And while this is happening, our economy is not growing, people are losing their jobs, unemployment is getting worse all the time. So I think that all South African citizens have moved beyond that, and I think there's a realisation that the problem is the ANC, that we will not solve these things unless we get rid of the ANC.

Alec Hogg: So your sense then is that South Africa's democracy is maturing?

Corné Mulder: Absolutely, no doubt. If I look at the number of people from different communities that are suddenly reaching out to the Freedom Front Plus — and it happened right from the beginning, always, but specifically from the beginning of this year — it's in relevant numbers, people moving towards the Freedom Front Plus from all communities. We have candidates in all communities, in all provinces, and those are the people who say they are sick and tired, South Africa is a pariah, and the so-called better life for all never materialised for them, for a small elite that goes around calling each other comrade, and they are the problem. So I'm quite optimistic. I think we're going to do well. I think our democracy did mature to a very large extent, and I think the elections of November the 4th are going to be something to watch.

Alec Hogg: I'm glad you brought that up, because you've been all over social media with a little clip of an interview that you had, which some people say you handled brilliantly, other people say, well, you see, they don't actually represent anyone other than a very small, narrow interest. You said communities, people from all kinds of communities. Just elaborate there.

Corné Mulder: Yes, I was asked a question recently to try to get us into a difficult position, to say, but you say you have support from all others, you only represent a small minority of white Afrikaners, so how many people do you have as candidates from other communities? And I just honestly responded in an honest way: I can't tell you. For the simple reason, if we are serious about South Africa being a non-racial country, then the last thing that we want to do is to put tick-box exercises on an application form to say you must identify what you are — are you white, black, whatever. We're not doing that, I'm not interested in that. We're a non-racial party, we're a non-racial South Africa. So I don't have those statistics, but I did mention that if it's so important, I can go back and ask our office, give me a list of all our candidates from other communities, and I think one will be surprised. You merely have to look at some of the pictures that were taken at our manifesto launch on Saturday, and you'll see exactly what I'm saying. But I think it's an outdated argument, and some of the people who have not followed the progress that the Freedom Front Plus has made, and the support that we get all across South Africa, I think it's an outdated kind of approach to say, how do we deal with them, well, they are just an exclusive little white Afrikaans community. No, you're in for a huge surprise, and people will see that on the 4th. And maybe I should do that exercise — I don't even want to do that, because I don't want to classify people. You know the ANC, the most important thing when they started off in 1994 in the negotiations, they were adamant about a non-racial South Africa, and they have racialised this country beyond anything anyone can believe.

Alec Hogg: Well, I hope you're right. I think there are many members — in fact, pretty much everybody in the business community — hopes that we can get back onto a sensible approach towards South Africa, because the one thing we do understand is the economy. And the economy is really struggling, and has been doing so for a decade and a half, because of dumb policies. But getting back to this Marco Rubio decision — are you fully supportive of it? Is this what you were arguing for when the three amigos went to Washington?

Corné Mulder: By implication it is — let me just put that in perspective. When we went to the United States, basically the first point we made was, if you take steps against us, please do not punish the country, and please do not punish ordinary South African citizens, because they don't deserve it. They are the victims of these failed socialist policies that the ANC enforces on us. They are the victims of the friends and the co-initiators of the ANC — they want to be friends with all the rogues, be that Iran, or previously Venezuela, or Cuba, or Hamas — those are their friends. So our appeal to the United States at that time, the White House, was, please do not punish ordinary South Africans, if you want to take steps, take targeted steps against those responsible. And I think that's exactly what this first step is. This first step is basically visa restrictions, and they've made it very clear it's going to be visa restrictions against those that enact or enable these failed policies, with regard to what they've asked South Africa to adapt, and South Africa was not prepared to — or, it's not South Africa. I think South Africans are prepared to adapt, it's the ANC. And remember what I've always said: they basically hijacked our international relations. How the DA could agree to that, I don't understand. They have hijacked international relations, and they've got the exclusive domain, so it's the ANC speaking, it's DIRCO speaking. And indirectly, I think that's exactly what they are doing now: targeted sanctions in terms of visa applications. They may take it further — I saw some political commentator this morning on television say, well, we must understand it's going to go beyond just officials, it may go to politicians, those in Parliament who voted for some of this legislation. They could also be in the firing line. It could be some of the leaders of other political parties who made these pronouncements at public rallies, "kill the Boer, kill the farmer." So I don't know, we will see when the list comes out. But the important thing is what Bozell basically said: it will be severe, and this is only the first thing.

Alec Hogg: So just give us an insight into what would happen in step two, three, four, five, six. In other words, what happens from here?

Corné Mulder: Well, from here, I think the decision was taken, and I think it's also because of certain responses. The United States, the Trump administration, has made it very clear that they were quite tolerant, they were quite patient. We conveyed this in June of last year already, it was tried to be ignored, no responses came. The ambassador, at the BizNews Conference in the Drakensberg, referred to that, saying these things are outstanding — he was reprimanded and summoned for that by DIRCO. They've been very tolerant. And then lately I made the point recently that there may be some steps coming in the next few months. And then we saw the BRICS summit this past weekend, when our president was in India, and he made all kinds of pronouncements that the most important thing is Gaza, Gaza, and so on, and not a word [about the US conditions]. And, interesting enough, if you look, for example, at the rural safety issue — and the rural safety issue is very important to the United States, not only with regard to farmers, but to farm workers, and on a non-racial basis, it's not focused on white people, it's focused on all rural problems in that instance. When this thing happened in the East Rand, in eKurhuleni, with regard to the possibility of a mass murderer — and we all obviously deplore this to the highest extent, femicide is completely absurd, and we should never have that — but the president immediately acted, immediately declared it a national crisis. But he does not want to do that with regard to farm and rural security. So I think what's going to happen is these steps will be taken. I don't know how it will work in practice, but they most likely will come up with a list. Some people will apply for visas, and those visas will simply be refused, the United States will say these people are not welcome in the United States. But then it can go further — it can go to certain economic sanctions, Magnitsky-style sanctions against targeted individuals. I don't know, but it will be step by step. And the problem is, I am absolutely convinced, as I said here, that the ANC, including the president, has zero intention of addressing a single one of these issues. They're not interested to do so. They think they can stare down the United States, they think they just have to outlive the Trump administration. Let's see what happens — it may succeed, it may fail, because we could have a further Republican presidency afterwards. And the other big mistake that they're making at the moment is this: they think it's something of the Trump administration. The first steps to reprimand South Africa because of its non-alignment came during the second term of Barack Obama — a Democrat. And definitely no one can say this is a right-wing president. So the United States in general, across the aisle, Democrats and Republicans, are not impressed with South Africa's positioning, but I'm absolutely convinced South Africa does not intend to take any steps in trying to address these issues, and one must understand that and deal with it.

Alec Hogg: Well, how do you deal with it, if you're that convinced that Ramaphosa and co. are not going to make decisions, and in fact they're going to do nothing about this? How do we deal with it as a business community?

Corné Mulder: Exactly. I think you deal with it in two ways. The one is that the United States will take its own steps, and they may apply some sanctions against some of these individuals, and they may apply pressure — that's what happens internationally, in international relations, and I think it's being underestimated what the implications of these kinds of steps could be. And I think that's the one sense. The other sense is, we have to get rid of the ANC. It's as blunt as that. We will not turn this country around as long as the ANC, with their failed economic policies, are in charge. It's the height of madness to continue doing the same things over and over and expect a different result. That's why our economy is not growing, that's why we're not creating jobs, and that's why our economy is in such a dire state. And the ANC remains committed, they refuse to listen to these things and to try to adapt and change with regard to them. The only way then is to remove them from political power. From my perspective, the first serious steps in that regard are going to happen on the 4th of November, when we are going to elect councillors, and we are going to elect councils in the metros. We will put together governments, as far as I'm concerned, that will exclude the ANC, because we have to start somewhere. From my perspective, the election on the 4th of November is going to be a foundation that we are building towards 2029, when I think we can finally turn South Africa also on the national level in the right direction, to put forward a coalition government which I would like to call one of the good people, coming from different political parties.

Alec Hogg: But 2029 is a long way away, and the damage that could be wrought between now and then — is there any other way? Let's just say your scenario works out, that South Africans are mature, they go to the polls on the 4th of November, they give the ANC a bloody nose, despite this American issue, which could be turned to account by the ANC — is there anything that can be done, if the people are saying, hang on, we've had enough of these guys, to bring forward the 2029 election?

Corné Mulder: Yes, I think so, I definitely think so. No one should be as interested in your future as you should be yourself — that goes for businesses as well. And the fact is, I don't think there's the capacity any more. You can legislate, and you can do all kinds of things, but I don't think the state does have the capacity to enforce some of these things. And then people start to — not take the law into their own hands, that's not what I'm saying — but people are creating a different reality. They just create a different reality on the ground, where people get together from different communities, and they start creating a new reality where they move forward without the government. They don't need the government to assist in any way, because that assistance has been negative throughout. And I think that kind of thing could change things more dramatically and quicker than one perceives could be the case. And from our perspective, I would like to continue to put a positive note and a positive message out there — it can be different. And the discussions that I've had, for example, with Ambassador Bozell, the United States is ready in terms of billions of dollars. The opportunities are absolutely screaming towards South Africa — let's move forward, let's start to invest, let's develop South Africa. And I think we are getting to the point where ordinary citizens will say, well, we want to reach out to that. And the United States does not say that South Africa should make a choice between the United States and BRICS, for example — they just say, if you say you're non-aligned, really be non-aligned. And I've always said the best example, as far as I'm concerned, in that regard is India. India is a very senior player in BRICS, a founding member from the beginning, the latest conference was in India, but India's got excellent relations with a state like Israel, they've got excellent relations with the United States and trade agreements. Why can't South Africa just act in the best interest of South Africa? And that is not happening. And I think as long as the ANC is not willing to do that, then ordinary citizens should start to take hands and let's move forward and put our country first, and I think things will change much faster than they often do.

Alec Hogg: Can it come before 2029?

Corné Mulder: Technically it's possible, yes. I think the ANC could collapse overnight — remember, things can go south in that instance. The ANC has got their elective conference in about a year's time from approximately now, a little bit later this year, about twelve months. And in twelve months the ANC will have a new leader — we don't know who that's going to be. The ANC has set an example of recalling presidents: they've recalled Mr Mbeki, they've recalled Mr Zuma, and they may recall Mr Ramaphosa. I don't know what they will do, but we could have a new president, and that could strengthen the government of national unity, or it could collapse the government of national unity, which could bring about an early election. The Constitution is clear, you can't have an election until three years after the term has expired, then Parliament can resolve itself with a majority and go into an election. So we don't necessarily have to go until 2029, we don't know what will come.

Alec Hogg: That's an interesting point. If yourselves and the DA, for instance, decided that you wanted to no longer continue to serve in government, would it then force a new election, or is there a process where a minority government can continue?

Corné Mulder: No. If the Freedom Front Plus and the DA withdrew from the government of national unity, that government will collapse. But that by itself will not necessarily mean that there will be an election, because the president will still be the president, unless we pass a motion of no confidence in Parliament — that is a different option. And then we would have to elect a new president, and that could be very interesting, I don't know what will happen. But the other process could be that you have to pass a resolution in Parliament, with majority support — 201 members out of 400 — to dissolve Parliament, and you can do that after three years of the current term have expired. We are not there yet, but it can happen at the end of that three years, which is way before 2029, and that would mean that a new election would have to be called, new members would be elected, and then a new president would have to be elected and a new government formed. And the question, obviously, is what would MK and the EFF and others, the IFP, do — I don't know. It could be that they would prefer to go into an election and look at the options. The election that we have on the 4th of November will also be an indication in terms of party support. If the EFF is going down, they may be reluctant to go into an election, if MK is not doing that well, they may be reluctant. Let's wait and see how that plays out. But clearly South Africa cannot continue on the current course. Our economy, and our strength, and business needs to have clarity and needs to move forward. I'm an optimist, I've always been an optimist. I really believe that we are at the cusp of a wonderful new development in South Africa, where we can really turn things around. That's the message I get: since the 8th of July I've been touring South Africa, I've visited more than forty towns in those two months, and I'm still busy with that for the next six weeks. And everywhere I go, people from different communities are positive, they're excited, and they're looking forward to the election. They sense that change is imminent, and I want to support them, and I think, let's do this.

Alec Hogg: How are you seeing the political landscape will be different after November the 4th? Give us an insight into how you feel your party's going to do, and in the big metros — is it possible that the DA could be the biggest party in seven of them?

Corné Mulder: Well, first of all, I think we are going to see different parties forming coalition governments, and I think some parties will be outside political power altogether. I predict we're going to see coalitions in most other metros, and also many councils across South Africa. And then the challenge will be to form those coalition governments, and we've got some experience in terms of how you should do that. We will continue to play the role of the adult in the room, if we can do that, to bring people together. My concern is, I've issued a challenge to the Democratic Alliance, and I will repeat that challenge, and they are dodging that challenge at the moment. For example, in the City of Tshwane, opinion polls indicate that the Democratic Alliance and the Freedom Front Plus can form an exclusive coalition and govern there. And my challenge to the DA remains: give the voters the assurance that you will not bring the ANC into power and form a coalition with the ANC. The same goes for Johannesburg, where Helen Zille is at the moment — the voters should know that they cannot vote for a party that will bring the ANC back into power through the back door. And I think that's important. But we'll form those coalitions, and I think that, as I've said, will be the first step, and we're going to see coalitions most likely in all nine provinces, and hopefully South Africa has matured also in terms of coalition-forming. We think we know how to do that, other parties may assist, and we will get to the answers. We need stable coalitions of fewer parties, and not a plethora of parties that makes it unstable.

Alec Hogg: You've always said that you talk to anybody. Now you've just said that you don't want the DA to bring in the ANC. Would you really talk to anybody? You presumably met Duduzane Zuma at the business conference in the Drakensberg. Would you talk to MK? Would you even talk to the EFF? Would you talk to the Patriotic Alliance, who seem to be doing different things lately?

Corné Mulder: Yes. Talking to others is good, we have to talk in South Africa, we can't just ignore each other, we can't shout at each other from a distance, that's not going to solve anything. But if you want to have working coalitions, you cannot build those things around positions — it cannot be about, I want to be the mayor and you be the deputy or the speaker, those things don't last. You have to build coalitions around joint platforms, where you agree on principle in terms of those things that you address. And surely there are some common things that come up in towns, in terms of potholes, and electricity, and service delivery. But it's not only about that. Parties stand for something, they have certain principles, they have certain values that they espouse, and if you can't agree on those kinds of things, I can assure you, you're running into trouble very soon afterwards. I would say at the moment we've got 547 registered parties in South Africa, and I always say the vast majority of them consist of me, my wife, the fax machine and the dog — it means nothing. I say, let's look at the top ten, the ten bigger parties. And within those ten bigger parties, I say you find good guys and you find bad guys. And amongst the good guys, I would count the Freedom Front Plus, I would agree the DA also, I would say the IFP, the UDM perhaps, ActionSA could be part of that, the PA is part of that, I would suggest. But you've got some bad actors as well, and unfortunately, because of their track record and their principles and the values that they espouse, it's going to be a huge challenge to cooperate. But I'm prepared to talk to anyone, though that's not to say those can all be successful coalitions — I don't want to see that.

Alec Hogg: So even MK — and I say this because I had a very interesting interview with the DA's mayoral candidate for eThekwini, and he said that he will not, in any circumstances, talk to MK, he thinks they're a bunch of crooks, he says they're worse than the ANC, from a corruption perspective. From your perspective, that's not your view.

Corné Mulder: No, I think one should talk to anybody, but you shouldn't commit to a style that you are prepared to go into a coalition with anyone. That is not what it's about. If you cannot really agree in terms of values and principles and what's in the best interest of the community, and you cannot legitimise that, then you stay out of it — you should definitely stay out of it. If I listen to the rhetoric of the Democratic Alliance, be that in eThekwini, be that in Johannesburg, be that in Tshwane, I think they are preparing to go into coalitions with the ANC. That's my prediction, I may be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, because it could be — and I think the logic is the following: the DA wants to be the bigger party, they hope to be the biggest, for example, in Tshwane, they hope to be the biggest in Johannesburg. And then I think they want to bring in the ANC, but they think that they can be the bigger party and then prescribe to the ANC how things will be, and the ANC will accept that. I think that's a recipe for disaster. But okay, I think the electorate is entitled to know that's the strategy, and maybe Geordin Hill-Lewis or the other DA leaders can give us a reply.

Alec Hogg: Corné Mulder, it's always fascinating talking with you. Thank you for your wisdom and your insights. I'm Alec Hogg from BizNews.com.

Corné Mulder: Thank you, Alec. Pleasure.

Corné Mulder says SA could have a new government before 2029