Listen here.In their latest weekly chat, Chris Steyn and political commentator Solly Moeng talk about the headline-grabbing actions of former President Jacob Zuma and the headline grabbing non-action of current President Cyril Ramaphosa: Zuma appointing his son, Duduzane, as MKP’s Deputy President while Ramaphosa has been sitting on the second interim report of the Madlanga Commission for over two months. They also discuss News24’s turn-around on former IDAC chief Andrea Johnson, as well as DIRCO’s release of a photograph of US Ambassador Leo Brent Bozell and International Relations Minister Roland Lamola posing with big smiles after meeting. “I think it's a good thing that the outside world is watching South Africa because we can be fooled into a false sense of patriotism that works against us. Because these politicians in South Africa are smart. You know, we're all going…yeah, let's protect South Africa, but we're actually protecting the stuff that is working against us here at home. …We need politicians here to know that they cannot just do anything and tell us yeah, let's protect the country when we're actually protecting them.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.098)The headline grabbing actions of former President Jacob Zuma and the headline grabbing non-action of current president Cyril Ramaphosa are recurring themes in South Africa's political story. With me is political commentator Solly Moeng. Welcome, SollySolly Moeng (00:22.242)Chris. Lovely to be here. As always.Chris Steyn (00:25.962)Has former president Jacob Zuma just secured the future of his MKP with the appointment of his son Duduzane as Deputy President?Solly Moeng (00:35.404)You know, the last time we discussed Zuma, I said Zuma is being Zuma. I'm quite impressed by how South Africans pretend to be surprised. I mean this was long coming. This was very long coming. I mean Zuma was never going to exclude his son from MKP. Even his daughter Duduzile, the twin sister, I think there's going to be a time when he's going to bring her back in with her brother. I think that Zuma is playing a game. He knows how to play this game. He knows how to play everybody. He knows how to play, you know that whole saying, slowly, slowly catch the monkey. And he does it very well. He's charming and he's very approachable, but he has a game plan and people tend to underestimate that game plan. But he still has a lot of questions to respond to in regard to State Capture, the Guptas and so does Duduzane. I mean he was the key BEE partner of the Gupta's almost in all of their companies. He's the same person who was involved in…remember the former minister, apparently he was over six hundred million rand at some point, to do some things for them and in return they would make him Minister of Finance ahead of Pravin Gordhan. But Duduzane is said to have been in that room when all those things were made.But he hasn't been arrested. The Guptas are on the run. They are wanted by the South African, apparently they are wanted. There's been extradition attempts. But he has been coming and going and coming and going, going back to Dubai, showing off his boats and his beautiful apartments and the life there. All gained at the expense of the South African tax payer. But there are still many fools in this country who consider him to be a hero. So I dunno, South Africans…it's like we're like suckers for self-flagellation.Chris Steyn (02:29.46)Over to President Cyril Ramaphosa. He received the second interim report of the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry on the 30th of May, over two months ago. We still do not know what findings that report contains.Solly Moeng (02:45.622)Yeah. The presidency seems to be arguing that he's not going to release any report until the final report is given to him. So while the Madlanga Commission is still doing its work, he doesn't want to confuse the public by issuing statement statements, especially if there are people who might still be called to testify. He doesn't want to issue stuff and make it hard for them. That's the argument that he's giving. I think it has soundness to it if you want.But South Africans are tired of just sitting there and being asked to wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know, we are being played. Either way, you know, there's still information that was alluded to, for instance, in terms of the five key players in this whole thing. The names have not all come out. It seems like there's always a name or two that gets protected. We get other things thrown at us until we forget the other names.So, Parliament is doing the right thing to keep pressuring Ramaposa. To keep pressuring him to do the right thing and I hope I hope that at some point nobody gets away with it. But look, it's a political game of kicking the ball further down the road so that, you know, we forget we forget until he leaves because he would not be appointed the next or elected the next president of his political party. So it's gonna be interesting to see.But South Africans must not forget and the media, independent media, must not forget to keep asking the right questions, placing the pressure where it must be placed, because that's all we have kind of and we have the Madlanga Commission.Chris Steyn (04:28.117)So the former president is playing to win and the current president is playing for time.Solly Moeng (04:33.44)Yeah, exactly. But I'm not worried about Zuma. Zuma is not going to come back to South Africa as president and I don't think his son will ever be president of this country. I'm not worried about that. What I am worried about is that there's gotta be consequences for the stuff that they are all alleged to have done. The criminal justice system needs to stand up independently, not with the likes of this IDAC person who's disappointed us all. So the key in South Africa, we've always said of all the democratic democratic institutions we still have a judiciary that still works, but mm now we like okay, which part of it is working? It's still the only thing that can stand between South Africa and hell and it must not be selective on who gets called in, who doesn't.Chris Steyn (05:20.127)Talking about former IDAC chief Andrea Johnson, what do you make of News24's turnaround capitulation?Solly Moeng (05:28.588)Well, you know, I thought about this. Maybe they made a mistake by going too far in trusting her. I read the articles again…they got good people in there, but I think they should have allowed facts to speak for themselves. They didn't seem to be saying, No, no, no, no. This lady is so good. Look at her track record,, the Jackie Selebi and all the other matters that happened, Oscar Pistorius, et cetera, et cetera. She's always been very clear and very ethical. She can't be, it cannot be. And so in the end, you know, they've had to capitulate, and to agree that no no no she's not she's not the person that they had believed that she had been. I don't think that they had a sinister motive. Well I don't want to believe that they had a sinister motive. The truth at least they acknowledging that, you know, the truth is contrary to what they had been hoping it would be and they've come back to join others in in expression of of frustration, disappointment, even anger.Chris Steyn (06:36.501)But it was the same news outlet who screamed, where's the evidence after General Nhlanhla Mkwanazi’s press conference. There's been a year of evidence. I hope it's enough for them.Solly Moeng (06:46.081)That's very true. I mean, I'm being very kind to them. Other people have not been as kind as I have been. Look, I'm doing the same, I'm making the same mistake. I'm looking at some of these people who expose the Tembisa criminality and other stuff, and I'm thinking these are good people, these are good South Africans who really want this country to work. So what interest would there be for them to defend somebody who is clearly not acting in their interest of South Africa because let's give it to them. I choose to give it to them to say okay please don't do it again, don't do it again. I mean we cannot put too much trust in individuals. And I keep saying South Africa because democracy cannot be made to rely on the goodwill or good health of individuals in politics or in these key government positions. We need strong institutions with strong checks and checks and balances to make sure that even if Solly Moeng gets into one of those institutions smiling and hopefully speaking well, and then he turns rogue on South Africans, the system is designed to kick him out immediately, not with one year of sitting at home on so-called leave and earning all the bucks at the expense of the Republic. Even this must stop. Mchunu must - Ramaphosa is such a disappointment - must be fired.Chris Steyn (08:11.989)Talking about smiles, DIRCO released a photograph that looked like a toothpaste ad: the US Ambassador Leo Brent Bozell and our International Relations Minister Roland Lamola. Big smiles after meeting.Solly Moeng (08:28.694)There were no big announcements made after that meeting. We know that the key issues that you know that led us to where we are at have not been resolved. The ‘Kill the Boer’ song is still there being pushed, the BEE, the Expropriation without Compensation, all that stuff that America has been pointing out to is still not unresolved.So I think this was really just to say, okay, look, we still have to work together. The tariffs are still there. I think the real sign of progress will be when each side gets something from the other side. South Africa doesn't want these tariffs that are being imposed on us. Of course we don't need them, but I also think that you know they can’t be for nothing.. I'm not a supporter of Trump at all. But I also think it's a good thing that the outside world is watching South Africa because we can be fooled into a false sense of patriotism that works against us. Because these politicians in South Africa are smart. You know, we're all going to be yeah, let's protect South Africa, but we're actually protecting the stuff that is working against us here at home. So we do need outside scrutiny, just like a party needs outside scrutiny. We need politicians here to know that they cannot just do anything and tell us yeah, let's protect the country when we're actually protecting them.Chris Steyn (10:02.431)Meanwhile, the city of Cape Town is making a much harder push for bigger policing powers.Solly Moeng (10:09.868)I support them. I I have no idea. I don't understand why national government thinks it's so important that they cannot allow something to be done differently. We cannot keep doing things the same way over and over and expect different outcomes. There are high levels of murders in the townships here, in the Cape Flats, gang related stuff, drug related stuff.And the national guys keep saying no, you can't do this, you can do this. I know what the legislation does, but you look the DA in the Western Cape is hard pressed to show the rest of South Africa that it can do many things differently. I don't think things will get worse if you allow them to get involved in crime investigation, in intelligence gathering, preparation of dockets to make sure that when these dockets sit in front of the prosecutors, they're ready to prosecute.'Cause a lot of times these don't go anywhere. So cases get reported and then there's no investigation. So who is being protected here? Is it a political thing for the DA not to be seen to be succeeding in fighting crime? Or are there people in the underworld who fund some of these national politicians who are sitting here in Cape Town who are being protected? It doesn't make sense to me. Ultimately it's the people of Cape Town who pay the price for all these high levels of crimes and killings. Just look at the stats, the number of people who've been killed just in the past month. It's absolutely crazy. Something has to give. I think, you know, they have to allow the DA to do what it says it can do to protect the people of the Western Cape. We know that there are lots of underworld people sitting in this country, in this city, drugs, a lot of money laundering in big, you know, homes and I don't know, other businesses. We need to get to the bottom of it.Chris Steyn (12:03.635)A hard-hitting editorial this week, posing the question: When will political connections stop beating the law in South Africa?Solly Moeng (12:14.968)Yeah, it doesn't stop, right? It keeps going on. I mean, these big big tenders at PRASA and other especially where there's a lot of money, suddenly and the security tenders…these applications to go around standing… regulations so that they can extend the tender or get another company or a company that's been involved in another institution to be involved again. I think we're being played again. There's got to be a point when more checks and balances get pushed into these things where new regulations and regulations where more voices are needed so that there are more diversity of voices from different institutions on big tenders. So that it's not one or two or three politically connected and friendly people who make decisions in this sense.Chris Steyn (13:15.569)Let us talk about the unintended consequences that have emerged from foreigners being chased out of the country.Solly Moeng (13:23.222)Yeah, I mean it's quite interesting. It seems like there are there are two camps now that are people who are saying, Uh-huh, we told you the foreigners were not the problem and other people are saying, Hmm, yeah, maybe we we overreacted here because suddenly people who employed foreigners as gardeners, as delivery guys on motorcycles, as who had them as tenants in their little apartments or homes…Suddenly these people have left, up to about sixty seven thousand people, I think, were signed out of the country. Now the gap they left behind is being filled. Look, the balance is still in the middle. There the question of uncontrolled illegal immigration is a serious one that must be sorted out. But at the same time, no country in the world, no country in the world, and I have lived in four different countries, more recently, Switzerland. No country develops without the hand of foreigners. Even America, I mean all countries. They have foreigners. They must come in legally into the country. Those who are here… who are legal, who are doing the right thing, acting within the law…there must be a way to regularise them. Okay? But those who are not here legally, we cannot simply just look the other way. I don't think any country should simply look away and not know who's in there.But we must stop thinking that we can grow this country without the contribution of skills and tax money. We legally collect tax money from people who are coming from other countries of the world, irrespective of whether it's Africa, Asia, Europe, South, Australia, et cetera.Chris Steyn (15:01.481)Many people who had hoped to get jobs once the foreigners left, ended up in long queues and disappointed.Solly Moeng (15:08.492)Yeah, no look I think look it's very naive for South Africans to think when so and so leaves that job will come to me, you know. I know a good number of people, especially in the hospitality industry, who have reasons that even I struggle to argue against about why they prefer say Zimbabweans or Malawians, you know.I think we South Africans need to look into the mirror and ask ourselves, do we want to drive scooters? Do we want to work…a lot of the work that is done by foreigners that South Africans don't do. It happens all over the place. There are all over the world. There are jobs that locals just don't like to do. Okay? And it's okay for foreigners to do those jobs as long as they're legal. So we should not be expecting that suddenly the level of unemployment of South Africans is going to suddenly drop because foreigners have left, because that is not the case.I think that we still have to develop the skills that we need. We need to grow the economy. We need to create more opportunities for South Africans, entrepreneurial for others to be active participants and beneficiaries of our economy. But we're not going to be able to do that without some ejection of foreign, you know, skills and good other forms of contribution by foreigners. I think we are a country of immigration, whether we like it or not. Some of us came from - many hundreds of years ago - from Europe, from Asia, from other parts of Africa. That's not stopping. There will always be people flowing into the country. They should just come here illegally. But there will always be people coming from elsewhere. Many of us have got parents from Botswana or Lesotho or Zimbabwe or in other parts of the world. That's how it is.Chris Steyn (16:48.799)Thank you. That was political commentator, Solly Moeng speaking to BizNews, I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, SollySolly Moeng (16:56.782)It's a pleasure, Chris. Thank you.