The Sunday Show: Brad Steyn - ANC skeletons & spygames: Cyril, Mashatile, Mchunu, Mkhwanazi

President Cyril Ramaphosa is “a prisoner of his own party secrets”. So says former double agent and Mandela spy, Brad Steyn, who was Neil de Beer’s brother-in-arms. Steyn - who is now an independent security expert - gives the backstory to Ramaphosa’s rise and reveals the role played by Police Minister Senzo Mchunu - now on special leave. Hailing the bravery of SAPS whistleblower General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, Steyn describes how other police generals were burnt when they spoke truth to power. He expresses concern that incoming Acting Police Minister Firoz Cachalia is “just another cadre deployment”. Commenting on deepening factions in the African National Congress (ANC) as top members jockey to be the party’s next leader, Steyn labels Deputy President Paul Mashatile an “absolutle nightmare” - and says: “what we are witnessing isn't democracy, it's survival and contest for the corrupt elites… and every move is shadowed by dirty money, spy games, and fears of prosecution”. As for the raging diplomatic war between the US and SA, he says: “South Africa is punching way above their diplomatic weight and way below our ethical belt… we've weaponised transformation into a tender cartel and now the world's pulling back the curtain - and you can't blame them.” He fingers BRICS as a “big, big obstacle” and says it is “not a moral alliance”, but “an opportunistic economic bloc…built on double standards and dirty deals, back ends…bribes.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.The auditorium doors will open for BNIC#2 on 10 September 2025 in Hermanus. For more information and tickets, click here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:02.167)Welcome to the Sunday Show with me, Chris Steyn. Unfortunately, Neil De Beer cannot be with us today. He's still very ill. However, his old comrade, the former double agent and Mandela spy, Brad Steyn is with us. Welcome, Brad. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (00:21.762)Well, Chris, thank you so much for having me on. I think we must be related somewhere down the line. But yeah, thanks for the kind introduction and a big boots to fill here, you know, with my brother, Neil De Beer. And I please ask the BizNews community to keep him in their prayers because prayer is a powerful thing and yeah I wish he was here with us today he's getting better hopefully Chris Steyn (01:01.997)Brad, with your background and your experiences of both governments and the current work you're doing as a security consultant, you have deep insight into the political situation in South Africa. I'd like to ask you, why do you think President Cyril Ramaposa has been such a disappointment? What is behind his failures? Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (01:26.69)Well, in essence, it's a long story, but I'll keep it as brief as possible. Look, our citizens had so much hope in Cyril Ramaphosa, but not all of us. Old MK veterans, I need to elaborate and say the real MK, not this version 2.0 hacked by this … party version that's been stolen, but intelligence people, people that were read in, people that knew where the skeletons were in the closet. And, you know, I encourage our youth to look at, for instance, old videos of our hero and Commander Chris Hani. It was freaking furious with the decisions and the nonsense. At that stage Comrade Ramaphosa was whispering in the hallways while backdoor deals were being made in the years of Madiba and Thambo and our ANC executives at the time. And this is pre-94. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (02:52.118)I want people to think for themselves because, you know, a lot of people undermine South Africans. But we have to really have a very good look at why do we think that the Apartheid state secretly colluded with some in the ANC that had their own agendas and then Chris Hani was...brutally assassinated. Okay, and then we need to go further back and have a look at, you know, the background and the craftiness of Cyil Ramaphosa. He's not to be underestimated. He's an incredibly astute person. He's been in this political environment for many years. But I just want to take you back to the CR17 political nomination manipulation that took place within his very ANC NEC conference to get nominated. The race was between Mrs. Zuma at the time and himself, but… Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (04:23.754)…what Cyril Ramaphosa did at that time was get the very Senzo Mchunu that's all over the press at the moment to run a smoke-and-mirrors campaign in the background and then he got the National Police Commissioner at the time, Sithole, to use state funds to go and get some cyber intelligence software. We call them grabbers and stingrays. And in essence, what they're used for, for those folks that don't know, it's like a fake cell phone tower that allows intelligence services that use this in national security operations to actually get internet users, email users, and cell phone users to connect their phones to this fake tower. And then what they can do is reverse engineer it and they can look in and see what messages are being sent, text messages and email messages to see who they were most likely going to vote for, they're to vote from: Dr. Zuma or were they thinking about voting for Cyril? And what they would then figure out is then Mchunu would go in and have a look at the stats and at the data and say, okay, now we need to go and approach this comrade…. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (06:21.806)…and this group of comrades to convince them to rather vote for President Ramaphosa or Ramaphosa as I like to refer to him. So that's what a stingray does. You know, Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (06:43.224)…there’s been a lot of history with this, the way that President, rather, Cyril Ramaphosa has done things. But let me be credibly clear that the real people that sold out our liberation was not Nelson Mandela. The real people that sold out our liberation was Cyril Ramaphosa. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (07:23.265)And then Jacob Zuma. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (07:28.14)You know the... Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (07:34.294)And it's not like, you know, we didn't warn the leadership at the time under Joe Nhlanhla who our handlers at the time myself and Neil's handler was Jeremy Veary and Andre Lincoln. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (08:00.172)You know, we were instructed when we were double agents to get as much information and intelligence as we can on what was going on in the statecraft that was actually happening. And in fact, Neil and I retrieved, well, found, you know, the infamous list of the Askaris, the impipies. And when I say infamous, people like Blades Nzimande talk about this list and …Jacob Zuma being on this list and being on the apartheid government's payroll. And we found this list in the office of the head of the Security Police in the Western Cape and a lot of your listeners might recognise the name of Major Andy Miller, or rather Andy Miller, because later on he became the head of the South African Police Union. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (09:11.274)So at the end of the day...what does all this information tell us? That there's unethical leadership that has from a very early stage manipulated the honour and the dream and the foresight of what Oliver Tambo had in mind for us, Govan Mbeki you know, the good people that were in the ANC. And look now today, the mess we are in as a country. But you know, rather than, you know, Cyril Ramaphosa gets into power, but you know, rather than fumigating, you know, he slowly just walked justice into a coma state. His so-called new dawn became no action. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (10:27.938)He's got no backbone, no exit strategy. There's been no conviction of Zondo Commission, ANC cadres, that are clearly guilty for...for betraying their post and their oath. And then we have a look at things like Phala Phala. That just symbolizes it all right there. The secrecy, the suspicion and the silence. And you know the ANC has been sold out and you know the fractions run the show. The prison, the, the... Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (11:25.134)President Ramaphosa is in essence a prisoner of his own party secrets. And I recently heard something Prince Mashele, the author's statement that President Ramaphosa will end up in jail. And I'm telling you, I agree with him. But it's gonna happen when South Africans catch a wake up because...you know, unfortunately believe in the rule of... Well, fortunately, we believe in the rule of law, but unfortunately, we think that government is going to step up and do the right thing. But yeah, not right now..Read more:.The Sunday Show - Sarah Burger: The political victimisation of SA’s truth tellers….Chris Steyn (12:13.539)Talking about the rule of law, Brad, your impressions of the KZN whistleblowing general, I think you do know him. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (12:26.934)Yeah, General Lucky Mkhwanazi. Yeah, what a brave man and what an incredibly rare act of courage in a culture of silence and where people walk on eggs because they're scared they're going to get poisoned, assassinated. Look here, Mkhwanazi is not the first police general to risk his career by speaking to power. Jeremy Veary did it. Actually, with the Sithole grabbers, they blew the whistle, along with Andre Lincoln and General Peter Jacobs. They were like, President Ramaphosa has used this illegal intelligence classified software to further his own political agenda. And then we've seen people like Colonel Kinnear Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (13:32.246)You know, the difference is that I think General Lucky Mkhwanazi was inspired by mine and Neil De Beer’s former handler, André Lincoln, who became a general, who ran the Anti-Gang unit and who's blown the whistle on a few things that...were wrong. And I don't know if it is because when my brother and I handed that list of the Askaris and Impimpies to André and to Jeremy and then they handed it to Joe Nhlanhla. And then there's that famous, I suggest your viewers here go and have a look at the interview with Blade, Comrade Blade where he talks about this infamous list that Madiba came and he said he didn't know how to deal with it and it was very troubling and… Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (14:44.458)And you know, at the end of the day, you know, we have a term in the intelligence community where somebody gets burnt. I don't know, there's that TV show, The Burn Notice. it's a real thing. And I think Jeremy and Andre got burnt because, you know, hulle skrik nie vir koue pad, daai ounes; they're brave guys. They grew up on the Cape Flats. They didn't run away and go into exile. They stayed in our country and they fought for our people. These are true heroes. So, you know, I think that when I saw Lucky Mkhwanazi with that other general in the Western Cape that we're not too crazy about, I rather wish Mkhwanazi stood up and did the State eulogy, but yeah…or who am I to ask, but… or what I think was Mkhwanazi. Neil was there at the funeral, Jeremy Veary, was there and myself, and as we lay our friend and our brother and our hero to rest at the State funeral. And Alan Boesak stood up and he said, André died of a broken heart and it's true. And I think it's lit a fire in a lot of us to do the right thing. And that's why I do the activism I do. And that's why my brother Neil De Beer left the ANC and said, bugger these guys. And later on, I left the ANC because we know about all this nonsense. People think Jacob Zuma knows about… Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (16:47.914)…all the skeletons in the closets, etc. We are intelligence veterans and we know what happened in the background and we know what's going on. And Lucky Mkhwanazi is gatvol because he has seen what happens to Charl Kinnear, to Peter Jacobs, to Veart and Lincoln when they go the legitimate route and they follow procedures and they are disciplined. They get burnt. They get thrown under the bus. André Lincoln was vilified. He ended up having to mow lawns and clean people's gardens because he was put on suspension for years. He fought court cases. They threw so many charges at him and they all got thrown out and he still hasn't been paid and backpaid. And his widow is struggling today. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (18:02.092)This is the very man that also, mind you, exposed the assassination plot and foiled the assassination plot against Madiba in 1994. That's how we treat our national heroes. So that's why Neil walked away, I walked away, and we're gatvol for this circus, die kak en hare hier. It's unethical. So when Lucky Mkhwanazi was inspired by this, because he knew Veary and Lincoln very well. Especially Lincoln, they work very well together and very closely together on high-level crime situations. So him not following the protocol of cap in hand, I'm sorry, but I need to report this and then it just gets pushed under the rug. Aikonna wena, no way I'm done with this. I need to not follow protocol anymore, and he had to step up and shake up the system. His revelations have exposed SAPS deeply politicized, meaning that our national security and law enforcement clusters are not running in apolitical manner, which they should be. There should be no political agendas when it comes to safety and security in our nation. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (19:48.6)So, you know, he's an incredibly brave man and yeah, I'm very proud of him and I kbnow Neil's very proud of him as well. You know, but we have bigger problems. You know, we have captured National Security Cluster, including the office of National Intelligence that has conveniently been moved into the Union buildings, a highly irregular move with his Minister Ntshavheni, this lady that has corruption and a stink around her that's quite unsightly. So, you know, the special inquest is not just what happened. It's a line in the sand - and we are going to protect our truth tellers and no longer bury them like we had to. Babita Deokaran, who's actually involved in this very case with this clown Cat that carries on terrorising people in Mamlodi, know, outside Pretoria where I grew up. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (21:26.37)We can't build a lawful country if we keep betraying the people who are trying to clean it up. Chris Steyn (21:36.164)Right, talking about the. talking about policing, what are your impressions of the incoming Acting Police Minister Cachalia. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (21:48.258)Look, yeah, he's highly respected in academia. You know, he's got a credible name. But I'm just concerned this is just another cadre deployment. And I'll go back to being apolitical in this and not having a political agenda and putting the needs of our country first, which is the most important thing. And… Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (22:30.104)…so he brings a lot of intellect, but can he take on the entrenched rot? And if he wants to succeed, he must back whistleblowers like General Mkhwanazi. He needs to purge SAPS of political puppets pulling the strings. And most importantly, he needs to rebuild trust within the public, starting on places like the Cape Flats where...people can't even protect themselves, the government and the status. I just did an interview on a radio station about Delft community members that are community safety members, but now PSiRA and the police have gone in there and arrested them, I guess to divert bad optics that they're having because the State has failed looking after the people in our most vulnerable communities. Imagine Chris, that in our white suburbs where there's not as much crime as there are on the Cape Flats, that we couldn't afford security guards to protect our kids at school. And then we organise like we do so brilliantly in this country from a grassroots point of view. And we come together and we make a plan because South Africans are brilliant like that. And we create a safe environment for our kids. This, you know, this they've got it all ass backwards. It's like…. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (24:29.966)…ice cream, you know, it's, so it's, it's very, very frustrating. So, you know,.Read more:.BN Briefing: Sanctions on the table for ANC leaders; Mashatile’s moves further annoy the US.Chris Steyn (24:39.813)Brad, meanwhile, sorry, Brad, meanwhile, the factions in the African National Congress are deepening as people are positioning themselves for the next president of the African National Congress. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (24:55.715)Yeah. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (24:59.224)Faction or warfare disguised as democracy choice. Well, what we witnessing isn't democracy, it's survival and contest for the corrupt elites. You know, it’s…Paul Mashatile Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (25:30.702)That oak is an absolute nightmare. And you know, all they do is just fill their coffers and continue to enrich themselves. Mashatile and even Lamola are playing chess for 2027. And even a move, and every move is shadowed by dirty money, spy games, and fears of prosecution. The next ANC leader will need more lawyers than voters. And the ANC is not the ANC that... And we all know that. We all know that. That it hasn't been that for many, many, many, many years. And it's a pity because there are some good guys like, you know...Muhammed Khalid Sayed, who we know very well, he's ethically, he's a good person. But you know, he won't get, and unfortunately I'm afraid I don't think he's gonna get anywhere because of the Bantustan racism. It's a massive obstacle in the ANC, because you are a different colour and you're not, you're not black. And you know, that's why even in the police, a lot of people don't get the promotions that they need to get. And they've spent years in the police, but rather they'll give their cousin a brigadier job, but they'll do a backdoor deal that she must give them a … of a few thousand rand a month. So, you know, there's a lot of things broken and unfortunately, and I respect the elderly in our country so much and the pain and suffering that they've been through and I respect their loyalty, but this is not what... Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (27:45.474)…the ANC was meant to do. Chris Steyn (27:50.113)Let's talk about another party, the Patriotic Alliance, seemingly the fastest growing party in South Africa. But now its Deputy President, Kenny Kuneni or Sushi King has been suspended after being found at the house of a murder suspect. And he has now resigned as Joburg City Councilor and MMC member. Your take on that, Brad. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (28:17.482)You know I've said on this show that with Alec that I like Gayton McKenzie and I thought Gayton McKenzie and Neil would make such a formidable force together. But you know, I got to give kudos to Gayton McKenzie for acting immediately as soon as that came up. He didn't do what the ANC would do and hum and ha and te-ta about it, talk about it and chat and go for dinners and- Gayton McKenzie came in there and he suspended it. Let's be realistic here. The clown leaves but the circus remains. Kuneni's politics was performance art from the get-go. There's no leadership. In a country like this when the system is so broken and I respect a lot of things that they have done because they are so frustrated. For instance, kicking illegal people out of buildings that have been hijacked by people and they did that in the past so that they could get our citizens into housing, etc. and get rid of people like... What's that operation called in Joburg? Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (30:01.742)Yeah, that operation in Joburg where, you know, they are fed up because government is not doing anything. But, you know, your country, you know when your country's in trouble, sushi platters make policy. Chris Steyn (30:30.007)Right. Meanwhile, you have spent quite a lot of time abroad, also in America. What do you make of the diplomatic war between South Africa and the United States? Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (30:44.172)Yeah, you know, it wasn't safe for Neil and I to live in South Africa for a few years and both Neil left. I had to leave and he went to Scotland because they tried to kill us. And I ended up staying in the United States. It wasn't by choice because, you know, all these people in exile came and we had to leave because it was too dangerous because we were doing the real work on the ground. But South Africa is punching way above their diplomatic weight and way below our ethical belt. And, you know, Neil covers this and he's covered these, he's been spot on with this in saying, you know, for instance, BRICS, BRICS is the big, big obstacle here. Because, you know, South Africa is this administration, this ANC administration, and it's cuddling up to people like China and Russia, both authoritarian regimes and powers with zero regard for democracy and human rights. Just switch on the TV and you see it. You know, fine, they challenged Israel at the ICJ, but then they remain silent on Putin's war crimes or China's detention camps. You know, it's, BRICS is not a moral alliance. It's an opportunistic economic bloc, in my opinion, built on double standards and dirty deals, back ends, machochos, bribes. You know, so on US relations, you know, I will say this, the US is right to be alarmed. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (32:45.44)I spent several years when I was in the United States because of my background consulting within the intelligence community. And know, South Africa has become a haven for Iranian intelligence. There's evidence that Iran has been funding the ANC factions because they didn't have any money. And Ramaphosa is not going to go into his couch at Phala Phala and grab some … and dollars out of that couch and back himself like any ethical person would do, especially with a legacy party like the ANC. You know, want to do the right thing and bring people up and bring it up and try and save it, try and do the right thing. But no. So, you know, there's evidence all over the place that they're colluding with these foreign intelligence agencies like the Iranians and giving them carte blanche you and our country to do whatever they want to do. Look, they load ships with illegal weapons and munitions and they end up in different countries, in different war zones. So there's zero accountability from the State Security agency. And now the US is responding with sanctions and tariffs. But I'll tell you one thing, unfortunately, is that the tariffs are, and they're supposed to come out now in August, the tariffs are going to do more damage to the so-called farmers that, voters, president Trump is trying to apparently help… Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (35:02.572)…because the brave farmers that are saying there's no genocide, because let's be honest, there is no genocide, okay? There's brutal, brutal murders of farmers. And I know all about it because my brother-in-law was brutally murdered on our farm in 2018 in Nelspruit. So I understand how bad this is and how bad the situation is. But the situation is a crime situation. You know, kudos for the US for actually saying something to these guys that are trying to hide behind our legacy of our freedom struggle. But it was captured in the early days already. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (35:56.098)But here's the real tragedy is that this is going to affect our food security in this country because our farmers are not going to be able to make enough money to support, well, they pay the farm workers, they pay, the money goes towards our GDP, they'll hammer our fiscus. Chris Steyn (35:59.459)The real tragedy is that this is going to affect our food security in this country because our farmers are not going to be able to make enough money to support... Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (36:26.072)…grape growers, table grapes of massive exports into the United States. So, of most vulnerable people are going to suffer the most. So the real genocide is an economic genocide and it's going to hit our heartland and our agricultural heartland. And I just want to touch on the BEE based race policies. You know, BEEwas meant to uplift the disadvantaged. And you know, the greatest champion for that was Chris Hani because he, that's, that's, and that's why Neil and I, well, I won't speak for him, but he could speak for himself. But you know, we had the most utmost respect for that man because his first and foremost priority was the upliftment of the worst of our people in our country, the people that have been left behind and the people that had been oppressed under Apartheid. And this BEE is just catering for the small elite politically connected millionaires. And it's not working and Ramaphosa will get up there and pose and say, yeah, it's great. We need this. This is going to help our people. It's just helping the fat cats get richer. And the US and the global investors are losing patience with this race first laws that reward the corrupt and exclude our poor. So economic justice shouldn't be about who knows who in the zoo. It should be about what you do to build and grow and contribute because South Africans are resilient. But once we get cut for then hopefully… Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (38:42.104)You know, here's the thing, we've weaponised transformation into a tender cartel and now the world's pulling back the curtain and you know, you can't blame them. You know, and but, and here's the other thing, South Africa is going to the international, playing cases against Israel, but, Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (39:08.96)…uou know, they can't even sort out their own kad they have in their own backyard here in South Africa. So it's pretty frustrating. Chris Steyn (39:22.139)Indeed. Thank you. That was security expert, Brad Steyn, an old comrade of BizNews favourite Neil De Beer peaking to BizNews. And I'm Chris Steyn here on the Sunday Show. Thank you, Brad. Bradley "Hawk" Steyn (39:38.562)Thank you very much for having me and God bless you all.

The Sunday Show: Brad Steyn - ANC skeletons & spygames: Cyril, Mashatile, Mchunu, Mkhwanazi

Related Stories

Solly Moeng: Vote out “all these mad men and women in politics”...

Hartford: The struggle generation that built non-racial SA — and the movement that betrayed it

Viv Vermaak: Phala Phala, games of steal and plunder

Solly Moeng: Impeachment drama — Cyril fights, Mashatile waits, and SA is watching the DA…