[00:06.62] Alec Hogg:
So South African superstars tend to stay in the background, especially when it comes to sport. But superstar swimmer Tatjana Smith, who is South Africa's most medalled Olympic athlete. Now think about that. She's won more medals than anybody else who has participated in the Olympics from our country. She has taken a very public stand. And we're going to find out why.

[00:39.85] Tatjana Smith:
Good to be back. Yeah.

[01:02.04] Alec Hogg:
And we're going to find a little bit more about what's going on in Swimming South Africa. Tatjana, lovely to be talking to you again. It's been a while since our last conference. Now, 25th of August, so that's just the other day. Your lawyers sent a letter to Swimming South Africa to say that they hadn't paid your interest on a prize that you'd been paid. You won a gold medal, and there was money attached as well.

[01:02.04] Alec Hogg:
Just unpack it for us. What exactly was owed and how did you earn it?

[01:07.79] Tatjana Smith:
Yeah, so to give a little backstory, all this has come from the 2023 World Champs. And that was, I think it was July 2023. I swam at the World Champs. I won a gold and a silver. I think it was the first gold medal a South African woman has ever won at a World Champs. So you would assume that it would go positive.

But just before that race, actually the night before, I got a message, or like an email, saying that if we were to not swim in the allocated swimwear that Swimming South Africa has a contract with, that is Arena, we will be fined.

And the fines were listed on there. I think gold medal, every final you swim would be €20,000 or something, like ridiculous. So I just remember being so anxious before. I'm calling my dad and saying, like, listen, I don't have an Arena suit. I am sponsored by Speedo. I'm comfortable in my Speedo suit. I've never, like, trained or raced in Arena, so...

I don't want to go out at my World Champs, where I stand a really good chance of medalling, and feel uncomfortable. So it was kind of that situation where we had to make a decision because I was also on a contract with Speedo, and I only get paid by my sponsors. And that's the only way, as swimmers, we financially get money is through our sponsorships. So...

I had a Speedo sponsorship, but I had to swim in their gear, otherwise I won't get paid from Speedo. So the thing was like, okay, do we then go for that and let's see if they actually stick by what they're saying. But I just remember thinking to myself, this is like the last thing I need to be worrying about the night before I have to swim.

[03:18.94] Tatjana Smith:
200 breaststroke to try and win a World Championship title. And yeah, fast forward, got my medals with FINA, is the World Aquatics. They pay prize money for every medal winner, and then they send that money straight to the federation. So, upon arriving back in South Africa, I got an email with an invoicing - I owe €46,000 fine, and my winnings at that time was only $35,000, so my winnings wouldn't even cover the fine. And of course, I was like, how are we going to - how are we going to do this?

Anyway, World Aquatics paid over the money to the federation because they can't pay it directly to the athletes; it has to go through the federation. And I never got to see that money. And so we started sending them legal letters to say, can they please pay the money? Because it's been in their account for - I'm not exactly sure when they've received it, but...

According to World Aquatics, they had sent it already because we were in contact with World Aquatics and they had sent it already, and they said their hands were tied. So yeah, we then sent out legal letters asking to pay the money over and, of course, with the time being in their accounts, the interest that has been built on that money as well.

Yeah, then first of all, that was happening for over a year. And I think it was just before Paris, we wanted to kind of like move this with us. But then that's the whole problem in this situation is like, I always feel like athletes, for myself, like, I don't know, how do I stand up for my rights, but it's always at the cost of my career. So it was just like, which one do I - I can't.

[05:28.75] Tatjana Smith:
I can't actually stand up because there's a chance, because at that time in the constitution said if any athlete takes legal representation, they can be suspended from being a member, which means I can't go and compete for my country if I got lawyers involved or anything to stand up for my rights.

So it was like this hard situation, and that was just before the Paris Games, and I kind of... Everyone was going for it and we were excited, and then just like a few months before I was just like, okay, no, I think let's just leave this. Let's do this after Paris because it's just too much pressure and I'm so scared of what could happen.

Anyway, get to Olympics. Yeah. No, it is.

[06:08.91] Alec Hogg:
But Tatjana, this is crazy. I mean, seriously, this is crazy. Let's just unpack that for us. Why did they want you to swim in Arena swimwear rather than Speedo? And why did they tell you so late that if you didn't, you were going to get a fine for it?

It just sounds like administrators have gone mad here, trying to force the athlete to almost achieve the impossible. The last thing you need is anybody to be disturbing your peace of mind.

[06:42.10] Tatjana Smith:
Yeah, so obviously I can only speak from my own experience, and it's never about attacking the system. It's just always, like you say, you're in this mind of how can athletes be dealing with this situation right before they're to be performing and representing the country and bringing back medals.

So it wasn't as if - I can't even imagine what younger athletes would have to go through if this is their... They're prime athletes and this is what I was facing.

So yeah, I think so at the moment we've also sent out, because it's a non-profit, you can request - so we sent out a PIA for information of the contracts between Swimming South Africa and Arena because unfortunately, for athletes, we only rely on sponsorships.

So if Swimming South Africa did sign a contract with Arena, we would like to know what that stipulates because at the end of the day I'm swimming then with the national sponsor, Arena, but I don't get paid for it, where if I swim for Speedo I get money.

So it was kind of that conflicting thing of like, yeah, this is kind of my human rights, this is the only way I can actually make an income, and for us swimming in - or for me swimming in Arena - that would stop that.

I'm not really sure what the contract says between Swimming South Africa. We have requested a PIA and nothing has been done. So now we're just waiting. I think they have about 10 days, if I'm not mistaken. I might have my facts really wrong, but that is why I'm super grateful for the legal team behind, just in doing the right thing, following the process, but also wanting to bring fairness and, like, for the athletes.

So yeah, that's at the moment.

[08:35.91] Alec Hogg:
There's a much bigger story. There's a much bigger story here, which we're going to get into in a moment. But did you get your money? Did the money actually arrive?

[08:43.62] Tatjana Smith:
So fast forward then at Paris Olympics, after I swam, I went to the South African House. Always have a South African media house for press conference and stuff for the Olympics, and I was busy in my press conference and stuff, and Joel was sitting watching the press conference, and that's how this legal letter came out.

And Fatah then showed a proof of payments to Joel, and Joel was immediately, okay, saw the money and we have the money, but he said, okay, but where's the interest? And if I'd just said, I took it as management fee.

So we're not sure if he meant that as a joke and stuff, but the whole idea was like it had been a year. There was no interest on the money, and it could have earned a lot of interest if I had put it in the savings accounts or something.

So, yeah, we did receive the money, but we haven't received the interest yet.

[09:38.86] Alec Hogg:
Okay, so let's understand this. You finally get paid your money while you're in a press conference at the Olympic Games, where you've won a gold again. And so now you're famous and everybody's going to listen to you, certainly at that point in time.

So the money gets paid. But now we have to look at what's happening at Swimming South Africa because it's not your and your husband and stroke agent Joel Smith's story here. It's very much an international story.

It was on the 24th of August, the day before you sent your new lawyer's letter to say, hey, where's my interest? There was a disciplinary arm - I've got to just tell people who haven't been following the story - of World Aquatics. So that's kind of the big bosses, one presumes, of swimming, suspended the Swimming SA president, Alan Fritz, and the chief executive, Seward Adriansa.

Now, before we go into the reason why they were suspended, are these guys really good swimmers? Did they compete internationally or even locally and do well, Alan Fritz and Sean Adriansa?

[10:34.34] Tatjana Smith:
I have no idea, actually. Sorry, I wish I did. That's very bad that I don't, but I'm actually not really sure.

[10:37.54] Alec Hogg:
But we're certain they certainly aren't Olympic medal winners. We don't know, but they are in these very powerful positions.

And they were accused of abuse of power, presenting false information, fake accounts. I mean, that's hectic stuff. It's almost like in horse racing they were warned off. They aren't even allowed to go to a gala, anywhere to go and watch it.

Now what caused this from the world body? Do you have any idea?

[11:28.07] Tatjana Smith:
They're not very - obviously we're trying to figure out what exactly made them, and it's - I think the World Aquatics Body and the Integrity Unit are two separate ones that we've noticed because World Aquatics, in that case when we were busy fighting for the money, we approached them and said, this is a situation, can you rather - we actually, I think, upfront said, can you rather just pay it straight, avoid going through that channel because we know what's going to happen.

And they just said their hands were tied. They couldn't get involved in the politics and stuff.

So this was the Integrity Unit, which I think gave them a lot of credibility because I feel like when this news came out, it honestly, for myself as well, it felt like I could finally just breathe because it was like, my word, okay, something is actually happening.

We've been fighting this battle in private. Not because I don't want to use my platform to speak about it openly, but I just never felt safe. I don't feel safe to say something because we know that they have been in charge for a very long time. So it's not that things were changing for us.

And I also don't want to jeopardise the athletes that are already still in the system. Unfortunately, I think everyone...

It's always easy to say, like, just speak up, just like bring it up. But it's very hard. And that's why I made sure, like, now with the legal side being part of it, is to make sure that we do it in the right way.

Because I don't want my career, and especially anyone else's career, to fall under this because we know how it goes. To change a system is not easy. It really takes time.

And yeah, I think for the first time, it feels like I can finally, like, open up, and now we're in this conversation and sharing because this has given us that, okay, the bigger picture has seen, like, the Integrity Unit is seeing what is happening.

But I think there's still that part of being like super cautious because we don't know when it's going to go back to how it was.

And this has been a problem, I think, since...

[13:47.39] Tatjana Smith:
Since the time when Roland and Rick and all of them were swimming, and there's been things that have been happening. It's been a system that has been in place for most of the top swimmers' careers, and now we just don't want it to carry on for the next generation's careers. So yeah.

[14:05.74] Alec Hogg:
So, Tatjana, what about Gayton McKenzie? What do you think - was he helping to expose these guys, if it indeed they have been exposed?

Because I remember at the BizNews Conference him giving you a hug, and he was so excited that you'd done clearly what you'd done for the country, as we all were excited about it. But has he been a force for good in this?

[14:30.92] Tatjana Smith:
Yeah, I wouldn't - I don't know. I don't feel like there's maybe, like, super intentional. I think he has a lot going on on his plate, which I can understand, because the problem is it's not just Swimming South Africa. This is happening across all Olympic sports.

So I think there's a lot of things that, is catching - maybe it's drifting away. So it wasn't as, like, intense, but the problem is again, as soon as Gayton steps in and he's offers the politics, well, World Aquatics can actually suspend us as well.

So there's just so much, no one can actually do something. So they're all like, okay, well now it's in, like, the members' hands.

And again, here we are, we have no idea what this - it's not our world. We're here to swim, try and, like, obviously train as best as we can to perform and represent our country well.

We don't have the back knowledge of, like, how to take the system on, and yet we are the ones expected to do it. I think it's so intertwined that we don't realise that a lot of people can't say things, and no one can help us because there's all these things in place and all these constitutions that restrict people from - and I just feel that is so unfair because, like, the people that actually have a say and have power can't help us.

And now they rely on the athletes to have to, like, fix this whole mess.

[16:00.99] Alec Hogg:
It's quite extraordinary. There are a couple of parallels here as well. I'm not sure if you followed what happened with the Comrades Marathon race, where the association, the members, got together, they voted at a special general meeting, got rid of a board, which sounds very similar to the people who've been running Swimming South Africa.

Certainly, the international body says abuse of power, false information, fake accounts. They have now fingered these individuals. They did it at the Comrades, and the Comrades is now cleaned out there and, in fact, has been going its own way outside of Athletics 4 KZN.

In swimming, are you all part of one, or is any of the units, perhaps water polo or maybe marathon swimming, trying to go their own way because of the concerns about the way the governance is?

[17:02.34] Tatjana Smith:
Yeah, I think Water Polo has recently moved out of South Africa and created their own separate entity - the right terminology maybe - which has been incredible, I think, for us to see their boldness. And for them to step out there took a lot, and a lot of people involved to make this big move.

Unfortunately, I think their struggle at the moment is they are not a recognised body at World Aquatics. So they can't make team selections to represent South Africa, which is, again, now you're sitting with members, we all want the right thing.

They're all moved over, or majority of the athletes moved over, but then you see teams being selected and your kid is not part of it because now you've stepped away from kind of Swimming South Africa and went with - because I think everyone in the system wants to change.

It's the parents, it's the coaches, it's the athletes, but we're all just so scared. There's nothing to protect us.

So for me, I mean, that has been the most incredible part. And I really take my hat off to the water polo team that have created their separate thing.

They've hosted, like, many competitions where they're actually paying the athletes, like, prize money. So it's been a really positive side.

But the thing that's always going to hang over is that there, if you're on that side, you won't be selected to represent the country. Unfortunately, because World Aquatics doesn't recognise us as our body.

So the only thing we can do is we have to change or vote, or do it almost like what the Comrades have done.

But yeah, I don't know exactly how that process works and if that is even possible again, because there are so many hidden things that make it impossible. But yeah, hopefully that could potentially be something that we work towards.

[19:05.22] Alec Hogg:
The way I'm seeing it, and I might be completely wrong here, but it looks like the administrators have grabbed hold of the sports and they are just sucking it like parasites. They're sucking the juice out of there.

We saw a number of people who went to, for instance, the FIFA World Cup, and there weren't too many football players amongst them.

But in this case, there was also an issue with a Franschhoek High Performance Swimming Centre.

[19:32.78] Alec Hogg:
Which has now emerged, over a hundred million rand that went there, and the pictures of the supposed high-performance swimming centre show that it's in total disarray.

So there's a hundred million bucks that someone's paid. Did the international body pay part of that? In other words, is that maybe the reason why they're interested in what's going on?

[19:54.13] Tatjana Smith:
Yeah, I think from the statements and stuff, they did say that they did get money from World Aquatics for the Franschhoek swimming pool.

I'm not exactly sure what the statement said and how they spent the money, or whether the money did go to Franschhoek.

Obviously, from what we can see is that the pool is just growing out weeds. And so many other pools in South Africa, that's the sad part is.

We understand that it is a super expensive cost to run a swimming pool. But instead of building new pools, we're having extremely beautiful facilities that are already there, municipality pools and stuff, but they're all empty and they all have grass growing out of them.

So it would be amazing if we could just actually see those facilities come to life because, again, like you say, it's happening across so many different sports, and we have so much talent in South Africa.

If this is the results that we are producing in the midst of everything that is happening and what we face as athletes, I can't even imagine what more we could achieve if these systems are actually working and are in place and are actually for athletes.

Because at the end of the day, we want it to be athletes first. Like, it just doesn't feel like the support is there. It's not the athletes first at the moment.

[21:25.59] Alec Hogg:
So what happens next in your legal action as a starting point?

So you've now sent - your lawyers have sent a letter to Swimming South Africa and said, I want my interest on the money that you held on to, that you shouldn't have held on to, that you finally did pay me after a year, because I won medals.

Actually, you didn't say that, but I think anybody looking at it rationally would say that, would interpret it that way.

What happens there?

[21:50.71] Tatjana Smith:
Yeah, I think at the moment there's always - we're just following the legal process in terms of the number of amounts of days, also requesting for that information about that contract.

We're waiting on the thing and then we'll take on the next step.

So I think from our side, we just want to make it as clean as possible, like do the fight right.

And it's not - we're not trying to fight any specific person and stuff. We are trying to make the system better so that the athletes can benefit from a well-running system and that they are not the ones that become the downfall of a broken system.

Yeah, I think for me also moving forward, I've decided that I wanted to launch - it's called the Lighthouse Sport Foundation. That will be a watchdog for athletes.

I just feel like I've been very blessed with my platform in terms of being able to have people on my side in terms of the legal side and just guiding me in that.

But a lot of athletes don't have that. They don't have a safe space to speak out.

Firstly, they can't afford someone to go to, to speak up and share what they know. So I wanted to create this for all athletes to feel safe and to feel represented and to know that we will always fight a fair and honest thing, not against someone specific, but against the system to make sure that the system from now on priority is that the athletes come first.

So that's very exciting.

[23:32.57] Alec Hogg:
Would you stand as an official for, or as president of, Swimming South Africa?

[23:41.64] Tatjana Smith:
God. I mean, if people wanted me to, I'm happy to represent them.

I've always been part of the athletes' committee in terms of trying to represent, and I always feel like I represent others better than myself.

I really struggle to stand up for myself, but I easily can stand up for someone else, and my biggest value is about fairness.

I always get emotional when I feel like there's a situation that's not fair. So definitely this process has caused many tears.

But I think what I'm super blessed is that sport has given me that perseverance and that determination and that fight.

I know that it's not always going to be easy and it's going to take time, but...

I'm willing to just help so that the next generation can have it easier and that they don't have to carry these unnecessary rocks in their bags and that we can actually see the potential of what we have here in South Africa.

[24:46.03] Alec Hogg:
I ask that because Rory Steyn, who's got a green number, apparently 10 or more Comrades finishers, he got involved and he stood for the board and he was appointed to the new board.

And everything that he feeds back to us suggests that it's really working well now because people who run in the race, who've actually participated, who are part of the sport and who know how it works, are running the Comrades and they're looking forward - I think it's their hundredth next year, or very soon anyway.

So you would think, I mean, just logically, you'd think that other sports should have a similar thing.

They should have their decorated Olympian at the very least that they're listening to instead of fighting with.

[25:34.98] Tatjana Smith:
Yeah, I just, I've always believed I just want the right people in the right positions.

If they feel that is me, then I'm on it. But if that's also not me, I'm super blessed and honoured to have the right person in there as long as the goal is to put the athletes first.

I think even changing a lot of stuff in the constitution, and there's a lot of things that need to change to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

And that's - athletes will always be the centre.

And again, like I mentioned, I think the previous time when I was with you, I offered my services in terms of athletes need a seat at the table, and I still believe that.

So even if it's not my voice, I'm not picky, I don't need to hear my own voice. I'm very happy to take leadership from and hear from someone else that has more expertise.

So yeah, for me, the main priority is whoever does get replaced or whoever gets put in charge, that their heart is honestly for athletes first. Then we're winning already.

[26:40.02] Alec Hogg:
So what to you does accountability look like in Swimming South Africa?

[26:47.24] Tatjana Smith:
I think transparency, transparency and, yeah, I think just - yeah, actually it's just that. It's just transparency and doing, following the right process.

I think if we can structure it in a way where we can measure that against, so saying this is what it says and this is what you are doing, then that's easy to measure.

But I think to try it, this - the wording is so confusing that we're not really sure, are they doing the right thing? Are they not?

I think just having clear lines of what is right and what is not. And if anyone is not following that, that there will be consequences or changes to make sure that we're always sticking to what we've said and what we believe to see in this new system.

[27:42.23] Alec Hogg:
But we do have a Government of National Unity, and we do have a PA leader who's the Minister of Sport.

You'd almost think with a Government of National Unity, there's no - there's no relationships with cadres who are eating in the past, which has happened in so many parts of our society.

So you'd - you'd - you'd think that there would be a drive now to try and clean it up.

Are you seeing anything in that regard? And if not in swimming, at least in other sports?

[28:14.76] Tatjana Smith:
I think sometimes, especially from what I've seen, and that's the hard part, is like I know the hockey girls had a situation where they needed finances for the World Cup and finances were given.

But the reality - wow, that's amazing. But this happens every single year for many, many tours.

It's nice to get money once and then everyone leaves and things like that. That was amazing.

But yeah, I just always believe that unfortunately it just feels like we are so content.

And especially just feel, looking towards like sports in South Africa, we are so content that the fact that we are resilient is because these systems are so bad, but it's not. It's in spite of - like, we need to change it.

We can't sit in this underdog mentality where we're always saying that, no, it's fine. We rise above that anyway, because there isn't - there's a lot of athletes that we lose that can't rise above it.

That's just not.

Honestly, when people ask me, how did I do it? I'm just like, I actually have no idea everything that I had to face and endure and still be able to achieve that.

It just, like, blows my own mind. Because I'm just like, I'm shocked.

So there was something in my story that maybe it was so that I could have this platform so that I can speak up, so that I can represent athletes and say, this is not okay.

Like, we don't deserve to sit in these broken systems and not do anything about it because this is what makes us resilient. That's nonsense.

Resilience is built in so many different spaces, but the fact that we can still achieve in spite of everything that's happening - yeah, I think we need to stop sitting in the fact that all these broken systems and actually, like, drive change.

Because I just feel like it's so sad and it's not okay for the next generation coming up.

[30:15.95] Alec Hogg:
So Tatjana Smith is South Africa's most medalled Olympic athlete. And she's risen, she's put her head above the parapet in an absolutely astonishing development.

Can you imagine this? The world body decides that the guys who are running your organisation in your country have been abusing their power, providing false information, and issuing fake documents.

And then there's quite a lot of, well, at least circumstantial evidence with a pool of more than a hundred million that's just got - well, a hundred million funding, including from the world body, that has got weeds growing out of it.

More strength to your arm, Tatjana, and we look forward to continuing to follow this story.

I'm Alec Hogg from BizNess.com.

Tatjana Smith takes on shambolic Swimming SA