Africa’s richest self-made woman Magda Wierzycka: SA’s geopolitical stance is derailing global trust

In this wide-ranging interview with Bronwyn Nielsen, Magda Wierzycka, CEO of Sygnia Limited, offers a candid assessment of South Africa's political and economic landscape. She discusses US–South Africa relations, the impact of Trump-era policies, challenges within the Government of National Unity, and the critical need for meaningful engagement with business. Wierzycka is clear-eyed about the limitations of current policy approaches, including the unworkable National Health Insurance (NHI) plan, and highlights investor skepticism rooted in uncertainty. Despite these challenges, she expresses cautious optimism about South Africa’s future and emphasises the importance of pragmatism, reform, and private sector inclusion in policy-making..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here.Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview .Bronwyn Nielsen (00:00.68)So Magda, quite some time has passed since our last catch-up. I know you’ve been traveling all over the world and participating in different forums. Let’s pick up where you'd like to start, in terms of what’s unfolded over the last couple of months from your perspective.Magda (00:20.654)So maybe - I mean, obviously a lot has happened, and much of it has been driven by Trump coming into power, with things changing literally day by day. When I look at what he’s doing, I always go back to The Art of the Deal. So what you’re seeing is exactly what I expected: he starts high.He doesn’t start from a low negotiating position. He just goes to the extreme high, and then is very quickly willing to start negotiating - significantly lower. Of course, his tariffs were insane. But if you look at it purely from a negotiation perspective, it was brilliant. He stays, in many cases, with a minimum 10% tariff, while other countries feel like they’ve actually won in the negotiation by getting themselves down to a 20% tariff. If you look at China today, he’s cut his duties to 30%, but that basically means that since he’s been in power - going back to his last presidency - he’s had import duties of 40% on China. And that’s the negotiation.Bronwyn Nielsen (01:46.974)We’ve heard repeatedly that he’s transactional. And that, I suppose, is what you’re reiterating now - that he wants to make a deal and starts it on his terms, effectively.Magda (02:02.136)He starts on his terms, and you always need to appreciate that he’s a businessman - whether good or bad is up for debate - but he’s a businessman first, politician second.Bronwyn Nielsen (02:14.322)Now let’s talk a bit about South Africa–US relations and your thoughts on that front.Magda (02:22.286)All-time low. I know that Mcebisi Jonas is going to do a valiant job of trying to somehow repair those relationships. But we have a tendency to shoot ourselves in the foot, especially when it comes to these relationships. While the relationship is fraught - clearly - while we have 80 people pretending to be Afrikaner farmers seeking refugee status in the United States - I mean, you actually have to laugh. It’s laughable. But having said that, our own citizens went off to Washington and literally took potshots at South Africa in an environment where Elon Musk has the power that he has - and he is not a friend of South Africa. So any excuse - any excuse - to put us in the spotlight. So there we have 80 farmers seeking refugee status, and then we’re attending Putin’s show-of-force parade. We’re at a time when we’re trying to do deals with the United States, and there we are on the global stage taking positions that are diametrically opposed to what the US is doing. How is that possible?Bronwyn Nielsen (03:53.178)Now, Ramaphosa has mentioned that he and Trump have agreed to sit down. Do you think that is going to happen sooner rather than later?Magda (04:02.734)Later. I think Trump is busy sitting down with Xi Jinping rather than with Cyril, unfortunately. And when I look at South Africa right now, I think the biggest issue we have is that the ANC has not realised they are no longer a majority party.They have not realised that they no longer have free rein to mix party ideology - ANC’s ideology - with national politics. They had free rein for 30 years to do as they pleased, and they have not gotten used to the fact that this is no longer permissible.So when you're sending representatives to Russia, are you doing it on behalf of the ANC? Or are you doing it on behalf of the country - South Africa? Maybe you should clarify that before appearing in Russia.Bronwyn Nielsen (05:11.316)I want to focus on the current situation with regard to the budget, which is going to be tabled on the 21st of May. Do you think the dynamic within the Government of National Unity has shifted significantly - where the Democratic Alliance is now a partner at the table, rather than a guest?Magda (05:36.11)No, I don’t think they’re a guest, but I do think there is a major problem - on both sides - in terms of calling this a partnership. So you’ve got two things:Exactly what I just said - the ANC isn’t used to having to sign off with others. The budget is the best example. I’m not taking any potshots at National Treasury - I think they do a valiant job under the circumstances. But they’ve become used to presenting a budget that they’ve worked on very hard, balancing books that are difficult to balance.What they haven’t realised is the shift in power. It’s no longer: "Here’s the budget, Cyril looks at it in an afternoon and signs it off." They didn’t follow procedure, and I think those new realities have to filter through all the institutions. It’s no longer business as usual - it’s not the last 30 years anymore.On the other hand, the DA needs to figure out where they need to compromise and where they need to negotiate - which positions and which fights. I’m not saying the Employment Equity Act isn’t a fight they should be having, but they need to get used to being a political party that does compromise.As opposed to a political party that survived by taking potshots at the ANC for 30 years. Now they need to learn how to negotiate. But that goes for both sides. It is essential that this Government of National Unity holds.I was at a dinner party in London on Saturday, sitting next to the Head of Trading from Goldman Sachs - Head of Trading for Emerging Markets. And what he said to me - his first question was whether I believe the GNU will hold. And I, being a patriotic South African, said, “Absolutely, absolutely.”Magda (07:57.166)But he said to me that, looking at South African politics, his biggest investment issues are twofold: First, foreign exchange controls - it’s difficult to get money out of the country, which they don’t like. Second, they don’t trust the government.They see it as risky. He wasn’t even going granular into the budget. He was simply saying, “South Africa is just one of many emerging markets we look at for investment.” And too many uncertainties here. Other markets are more attractive. Egypt, for example, came up as a very attractive market.Bronwyn Nielsen (08:42.906)If you were running South Africa right now, what would you change, given the conversations you're having in different forums? What would you change immediately to make South Africa more investable?Magda (08:58.958)So, I’ll use an analogy I heard in the United States a month ago. But basically, what we are not seeing - and this hasn’t changed under the Government of National Unity - is proper listening to business.As I’ve always said, if I were president for a day - which I’m not and never going to be, so let me not be presumptuous -the first order of business would be to call the 20 most powerful CEOs in the country around the table and ask them the very question you've just asked me.This isn’t a one-person answer. It’s a Business South Africa answer. You have to involve business, because they are at the coalface of attracting money to South Africa.They’re the ones who deal with multinationals. It’s not government doing the negotiations with the companies we want to invest in the country. Asset flows, government bonds, asset managers - that's hot money. What we need is fixed foreign investment.So - listen to business. And the analogy I want to use, which I promised to tell you about, is from the Yale Summit I attended. Fortunately, a number of these statistics have come into the public domain via articles written by Yale, so I can at least quote some of them.This summit is essentially top CEOs engaging with U.S. politicians. I don’t know why I’m there - I just blend into the wall. So please don’t draw any assumptions from that. But it was very interesting.I attended one in December, and the mood in the room was pragmatic in terms of engaging with the Trump administration. But I attended again a month ago - and this time, people were very reluctant to speak or criticise.Magda (11:20.45)There was a very interesting poll - part of the summit involves anonymous voting, with results displayed on the screen. Months ago, one of the questions was: “Has the time come for business to collectively engage with the Trump administration and speak out as a unified voice?” Over 60% of CEOs said no.The next question was: “How much would the stock market need to fall before business begins to collectively engage with government?” And the general consensus was about 20%. And I think the tariffs almost drove us there.So, again - engagement with business, to me, is key.Bronwyn Nielsen (12:21.716)Now, there are those who would say Cyril sits down with business. We hear of all the collaboration happening between the public and private sectors. Are you saying that it's not enough in terms of engagement and the roundtables?Magda (12:40.106)Well, you know, it's one thing to sit around a table, smile, nod, and have some coffee and cookies on the side. But what you need is tangible engagement - and actual listening - on broader issues than just public-private partnerships in infrastructure development.You need to listen to business at the policy-making level - not just: “What public-private partnerships can we form to build a road?”There is some positive engagement. For instance, Transnet is a good example. But there needs to be broader engagement at the policy-making level - and better optics in terms of what we do.Bronwyn Nielsen (13:31.922)And perhaps one example of that is the NHI. If we're talking about policy and where we’re going - and the optics - would you like to weigh in on what the NHI is signalling?Magda (13:45.774)It’s completely unimplementable. I look at it and just think - these kinds of acts and regulations will face years and years of court battles. They are fundamentally unconstitutional. And South Africa simply can’t afford it. At all.Even if we could afford a fraction of it, you need to look at the UK’s long-standing experiment with the NHS. The NHS is fantastic when it comes to emergency care - but if you need an operation, like a hip or knee replacement, there's a five-year waiting list.And that’s in a country where huge amounts of money are spent on public healthcare services. It’s dysfunctional - even under a Labour government that’s unlikely to fix it.So, to think that South Africa could implement this - even at a fraction of the cost - is, quite frankly, laughable.Bronwyn Nielsen (15:06.844)You’ve been through many different cycles in South Africa and built a business from the ground up. How are you feeling at this juncture, given all the history you’ve lived through? Are you more or less positive than you have been in the past?Magda (15:28.782)Perversely, I’m feeling a lot more positive. First of all, I’m always an optimist - that’s just who I am. But I do feel more positive because we no longer have a monopoly on politics with the ANC.A good example: when I was feeling very negative about South Africa, I actually stepped down as CEO and started a business in the UK, which I still co-own and help manage. But I’ve now come back to Sygnia as the full-time CEO - and I have no intention of leaving.I wouldn’t be doing that if I didn’t feel optimistic about South Africa. I’ve established a life in the UK - splitting my time between the two countries - but again, if I wasn’t feeling positive, I would not have returned as full-time CEO.Bronwyn Nielsen (16:37.53)And your business, Sygnia, is very dependent on the health of the South African consumer. We're in a tough economic environment. GDP forecasts at 0.9% seem optimistic at this point. What are you seeing in terms of underlying consumer behaviour, as it relates to your business?Magda (17:03.822)We’re in one of the toughest businesses - maybe not the toughest - but very, very cyclical. As asset managers, our fees are a percentage of assets. So it’s very sensitive to economic growth - and we currently have no growth.It’s a tough market for all asset managers. And asset levels depend on job creation. They depend on companies hiring - not retrenching. When people lose jobs, retirement savings go to zero.A good example of how stressed consumers are is the two-pot retirement system. Hundreds of thousands of people rushed to withdraw the R30,000 allowed from their retirement savings. It’s a pitiful amount after tax - and yet everyone rushed at it, desperate.So yes - South Africa is tough. But then again, we've been in this low-growth scenario for as long as I can remember. Other countries are also in this boat.Look at the UK - it was laughable when the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, stood up and casually cut the UK’s growth forecast from 2% to 1%. And no one blinked. It’s like saying: “We’re not going to have any growth” - and nobody cares.People don’t understand how that affects prices and job creation. So yes, South Africa is tough. But we have something unique: a thriving informal economy.That informal sector - though it doesn’t pay taxes - is basically what keeps the wolf from the door. And we’ve always had that going for us.Bronwyn Nielsen (19:34.662)We are just a couple of days away from the budget, and I did start our conversation by mentioning the budget on the 21st of May. What are you expecting? Do you think we can redeem ourselves and put forward a pro-growth, pro-employment budget at this juncture? You're already shaking your head.Magda (19:57.582)No, I think it’s going to be - well, I don't think it’s going to be a hugely disappointing budget, but I also don’t think it will be a positive one. I think it will be a budget that's in line with expectations.They will have fiddled the numbers to make it look like we’re hitting that expected 2% VAT increase in revenue. But I don’t think there will be any surprises. They'll cut a little bit here, cut a little bit there - shave off expenses where they can - but ultimately, they probably won’t deliver on the budget.Why? Because the unions will stand up and demand above-inflation wage increases again. They'll start high, like Trump - at 15% - and settle at 4%, which is still above inflation.So no, I don’t expect anything positive. But I also don’t expect anything catastrophic. It will be neutral, uninspiring, and most importantly, it won’t drive foreign investment into South Africa. And that is the real issue.Bronwyn Nielsen (21:04.35)Just a couple of additional questions - we're almost out of time, and I know I’ve taken up a lot of yours. But let's talk about the G20 presidency. A lot of businesses are making quite a lot - perhaps too much - of our role in that. We’re already into it. What are your thoughts on how we’re faring?Magda (21:31.426)Well, if your largest trading partner - the United States - doesn’t show up, that tells you everything you need to know about what you can achieve with the G20 presidency.I don’t think much is achievable unless you can bring the US to the party. And we’re absolutely not doing that.So I think we’re missing out on a huge opportunity to showcase South Africa on a global stage - simply because the optics, at the moment, are terrible.Bronwyn Nielsen (22:08.958)Can we redeem ourselves? Is there any opportunity left? As you said, the US president is now preoccupied with other matters. Do you think we can get a seat back at the table - or have we lost that opportunity?Magda (22:24.462)Look, I think the opportunity was to stay in the shadows - to not poke our heads up. That was our opportunity. And unfortunately, we didn’t take it.We are now the one country in Africa that the US is actively taking potshots at.Can we be allowed back at the table? I mean, are we important enough in Trump’s life? I don’t think so.I think it will be extremely difficult for Mcebisi - who I know personally, and who used to be a board director at Sygnia. He is an incredible diplomat. But I still think he’ll struggle to achieve much in this environment.And the very fact that you’ve got these 80 so-called “refugees” pitching up at the airport - and that becomes a global headline because it's sensational - that makes it very difficult for us to redeem ourselves.Bronwyn Nielsen (23:38.202)Is there anything I haven’t asked you that you think you should be addressing?Magda (23:45.934)Yes, actually. The interesting question now is: what’s next for the United States? Will they ever recover their standing as a global dominant power?There are two schools of thought. One says: this is it. The US will never regain the trust it once had. They no longer want to be the global defender of Europe - and they’re probably right in saying Europeans need to defend themselves.But the question remains: can those diplomatic ties and trust in the U.S. ever be restored?One view says absolutely not. That the world order has shifted permanently. But I tend to hold the contrarian view.And that view is: you can’t forget that the U.S. is still the largest economy in the world. You also can’t forget that the Trump administration only lasts four years. And finally, people have short memories.So I honestly think the US will recover. Trust, after all, is transactional. And I’ll go back to your word - “transactional” - because it’s one I also love.Americans are transactional. American business is transactional. American politics is transactional. And the beauty of that is - you always know where you stand.So yes, people will forget. Give it a few years, and - even under Trump - some things will shift. Europeans might start spending more on defence, which frankly they should have done ages ago.Magda (26:07.33)So being pragmatic about it - I think people will move on. Everyone will forget this very quickly.Bronwyn Nielsen (26:19.764)Good catching up, Magda, as always. Thanks so much for joining us here on BizNews.Magda (26:25.216)Absolute pleasure.

Africa’s richest self-made woman Magda Wierzycka: SA’s geopolitical stance is derailing global trust

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