A suspended police minister who has already cost taxpayers millions in legal fees. A former top cop allegedly showered with cash, impalas and Woolies bags by a cartel boss. State spies allegedly planted inside a rival party's caucus. Security analyst Willem Els told Chris Steyn why Ramaphosa had been so slow to act on Senzo Mchunu, and why he believed KwaZulu-Natal's politics had something to do with it. He explained why Cat Matlala's collapsed plea statement still handed investigators a roadmap, how Shadrack Sibiya rose back to the top after his first dismissal, and how Jacob Zuma learnt early that whoever controls intelligence controls a great deal more. There was some good news too: five countries joining forces against the drug labs, and a run of seizures that Els suspected was no coincidence..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.582)The luxury lifestyle of a cartel cop and former President Jacob Zuma's political spies. Those are hot topics this week. And with me to talk about those is Willem Els of the Security Initiative for Africa. Welcome Willem.Willem Els (00:20.848)Hi, Chris.Chris Steyn (00:22.828)Before we go there…just in from Ian Cameron, the Chair of Parliament's Portfolio Committee on Police, the legal costs for special leave Police Minister Senzo Mchunu has cost the taxpayer R2,7 million already. I just want to go there. Yes. And add to that his salary that he's still getting and the remuneration for acting Police Minister , it comes to R8.89 million for them.Willem Els (00:59.92)Unfortunately, we're sitting with the situation where...even in this unstable landscape that we're having for policing, you know, whenever you have a caretaker minister or you have a minister that is not appointed as the minister, you know, he's very reluctant to take decisions. He's very reluctant to be decisive in his leadership. And so that helped him back over the last year when Cachalia was appointed. So I believe that he did a fairly good job. He stabilised the ship to great extent, but with all these pressures. And now it comes out, you know…Why, even after a lot of evidence came out in the Ad Hoc Committee, but also in the Madlagna Commission, that actually incriminates Minister Mchunu, why have they not taken the step to have him set aside? And now we can see, apart from the damage that is causing within the police, because remember, within the police, you have a problem with trust of the police officers. Their morale is down. To stabilize the ship and having two heads, two political heads, is really not conducive for that. That is all apart from the financial implications that it had for the taxpayer. I mean, if you look at the lack of resources of the police, no vehicles, no equipment to do their job, no telephones for the detectives, et cetera. If we could have spent that money on that…Willem Els (02:43.453)…we would have had a much better and prepared police service. Yeah, it is really a sad day to speak about this, but unfortunately this is what rolled out.Chris Steyn (02:55.788)And there are people who feel that President Cyril Ramaphosa is scared to get rid of the special leave Police Minister before the upcoming Local Government Elections because he does not want to lose the support, or the African National Congress, cannot afford to lose the support of that faction.Willem Els (03:15.319)Yeah, you know, KwaZulu-Natal is a very hard contested province, especially with former President Zuma's party that is very active there. They are making lots of inroads. We sit with the IFP, but also then the ANC and the DA that is staking their stake there. So it's a challenge for them. Mchunu was their face. After Bheki Cele was removed from the scene, he took over and he was supposed to be the saviour of the ANC and gather a lot of the support in the province. And I think that is one of the reasons why it was very difficult for the president to let him go. But I mean, these are party political sort of issues. It should not take precedence over the security of the country.Chris Steyn (04:08.823)Already polling indicates that Mr Zuma's MKP is heading for an outright majority in KZN.Willem Els (04:17.443)Yeah, and I think that is one thing that the ruling party cannot afford at the moment. They already lost that of the Western Cape. And we see where good governance and better governance took place within the Western Cape. It really reflects badly or poorly on the ruling party. So should the Zuma party now take over there and they get the outright majority and they improve on the governance within that province, that will be a big, big, loss for the ruling party.Chris Steyn (04:55.242)Let's go to the twenty-five page, admittedly unsigned, statement by attempted murder accused and tenderpreneur Cat Matlala, in which he throws former Deputy National Commissioner General Shadrack Sabiya under the bus, as well as former Police Minister Bheki Cele.Willem Els (05:18.457)Yeah, indeed, you know…It's a good thing and a bad thing that came out and also that they drafted that statement because it brought out a lot of evidence or facts that we did not know before, we suspected, but there was no evidence on that. The challenge for that is now that the plea bargain did not go through, you know, they cannot use that evidence as is against the accused. But it opens a door for them, it gives them some pointers so they now with good intelligence follow the money and good investigation, they can follow up and they can turn all of that into evidence and use it against him. But it is very sad to see that whatever Mkhwanazi was saying in the press conference on that Sunday afternoon, they are proving him right. So he's been vindicated by all of these things and of course now those of us who support the rule of law and who really want to clean up the police. So it is for us, it is a good thing because it lifts the morale of the people that want to make a difference and gives them a little bit more petrol in the tank. And of course, it is sad for the country to see that that has happened, but it is good for the restoration of the trust of the public into the police and the law enforcement because at the end of the day, you know, they have to root that out. They have to come up with good evidence and bui;ld the docket. So I think it was, on the one hand, it was sad, but on the other hand, I think it is really a booster for the investigators.Chris Steyn (07:18.296)Well, according to that statement, Sibiya certainly had enough spare cash to spend at The Grand, especially on those Russian dancers he favoured…Willem Els (07:29.209)Yeah, yeah, it seems that, according to this evidence, he was really not holding back. He really, you know, it's a farm, the impalas, the cash flows, the Woolies bags, and all of that, you know. It adds up to an obscene amount of money. But that just tells you how valuable General Sibiya was for the syndicates, if they were prepared to actually spend that amount of money and all of these things on him, he must have given them quite a lot of leeway.Chris Steyn (08:05.335)And he was quite brazen, or he was described as being quite brazen, in demands for cash and property.Willem Els (08:14.671)Yeah, it comes over like that. And you know, it will come out in the court case now as well. Okay, not in the first one, but we believe that there will be more to follow this court case. And that is going to, at the end of the day, expose him and expose his modus operandi and how he was. But it seems that he was a very strong figure within the syndicates and within the operations of these people. Brazen, he knew who he was, he knew what he could do, and he was not scared to actually use and abuse… in order to achieve that.Chris Steyn (08:49.346)Mm and Cat describes going to a party at his house where former deputy Crime Intelligence chief Feroz Khan was also present… interestingly.Willem Els (09:00.279)It's very interesting, you know, they chose you. When you look at these cartels, you know, they became so powerful because of their networking. They were really able to rake in the Who’s Who that can protect them and also that could further their stance and their criminal activities. So, yeah, at the end of the day, the Who’s Who was captured. I mean, you look at certain generals that have been implicated now, you know, it brings you back to the leadership of The Hawks in Gauteng, how they were compromised. It brings you back to the case in itself, …political compromises and how it influenced it. But also Gauteng itself, you know, on a political level, how it panned out.Chris Steyn (09:57.433)Willem, let us go to former President Jacob Zuma's State Security Agency spies infiltrating the Parliamentary Caucus of the Economic Freedom Fighters for political espionage.Willem Els (10:13.815)Yeah, I mean that was something that came as a shocker, but it was about to come out. You know, one thing about former president Zuma is we must understand that in the previous dispensation, he was the head of this. Now this used to be the intelligence organisation or faction of the ANC back then. They were quite powerful. They were good. They were quite established. And he realised the importance of intelligence when he came over, became president. And so the very first thing that it seems that he did is he targeted the intelligence fraternity, or both, your State Security as well as the Crime Intelligence with Richard Mdluli that was placed there.And of course now here, that is coming out in the last few weeks about the capture of the SSA. He knew the importance and he really knew how to abuse that. And it seems, according to this evidence that is coming out, that he really did quite a good job.Chris Steyn (11:24.568)Well, the EFF fighters are fuming and they want to lodge a complaint with the Inspector General of Intelligence. Only one problem, Willem, the Inspector General of Intelligence has been suspended for a long time already.Willem Els (11:38.061)Indeed, you know. The problem that came especially just after the Zondo Commission, you know, your intelligence services were really in disarray. They started with revamping. They started with the GILAP Act that they wanted to revise and update the Intelligence Act and try to get their house in order, try to reverse some of the damages that have been caused by the State Capture. And now we can see how they have been compromised.So your challenge with your State Security Agency is at the end of the day, in a constitutional state like we are, they don't serve the president. The president serves the Constitution. And so he turned that around by using the elements or the instruments of the State to serve him and his own and party political sort of endeavours instead of to serve the country.Chris Steyn (12:40.492)Let's go to some good news, Willem, four other African countries joining South Africa to combat drug trafficking. You have all the details on that.Willem Els (12:51.471)Of course, this is a very exciting time for us. Especially in recent months, we saw the discovery of quite a few clandestine drug labs. We saw the arrest of some foreign nationals from Mexico, as they refer to them as the cooks. They are the chemists that are brought in to manufacture or to mix the ingredients and to produce, especially your crystal meths, tik, as we refer to it…So the challenge that we have is that the amounts that have been discovered, it seems that it exceeds the local demand. So that means to us that it must have found a way to export. What happened, and I think this foresight from South Africa, Mozambique and Tanzania, they established way back in, I think it was 2017 or 19, they established what they called as a TPC, that is the Tri-Planning Cell of the three countries. And that was designed to exchange information, intelligence, as well as cooperation when it comes to the investigation of illicit drugs. So, you know, that really went well and I think that contributed to the recent successes in South Africa. So a few days ago, we had the Minister's Conference of the TPC here in Pretoria. And the feedback was just incredible. The sheer amounts of tonnages of illicit drugs, but also precursors that have been intercepted is just amazing. So what happened also…actually two things that stood out there: in the first place Angola and Uganda also became partners of this now. So it's spreading and it will be enhancing the capabilities…Willem Els (15:00.401)…of the DPC.But also what is very important, they decided to establish a Fusion Centre in Pretoria, where they're going to gather, that will be your focal point for all the intelligence, and then they will ensure that it is disseminated timelessly, et cetera. So that is very, very promising. We saw that a lot…especially those that have been manufactured found their way, according to reports, to other destinations outside of South Africa and it also seems that it opened up a route towards Australia where a lot of these crystal meths are being smuggled to.Chris Steyn (15:47.119)Willem, I was just remembering something. Long before General Mkhwanazi called that fateful press conference, you as a police officer or former police officer had already heard what General Sibiya was up to, especially in the Tshwane region. Wasn't he then already known as the fairy godfather of the underworld there? And having recalled that now, I'm just wondering, is there much more to come out apart from what we have heard publicly.Willem Els (16:19.087)Yeah, I think when it comes to General Sibiya, it's never a dull day because he has really been active for quite some time. You must go back and look at his history. You will remember that there was this very prominent case of the illegal rendition of Zimbabweans. There were two captains in The Hawks as well as the Head of the Hawks, then General Dramat. They were fired because of that. General Sibiya was a captain back then and he was fired because of that.Then he moved over to the City Police in Johannesburg and he really worked himself up there. He was really well placed and he worked with the strategy. But on the sideline also had an appeal against the court ruling against him. And when they were found not guilty of that offense, it opened the way for him to come back to the police. And that was really working in his favour because they really appointed him in a very senior position when he returned to SAPS. And we can see there already he started to sort of implement and to get his ducks in a row and to organise himself and his organisation around him in order to serve the purposes of what he's doing now.Chris Steyn (17:43.712)And now there he is not getting bail. And I would imagine the range of sexual favours in prison, you know, won't go from nubile virgins to Russian dancers.Willem Els (17:57.689)Unfortunately, it seems that he had a liking for that and he frequented that a lot. Yeah, I think his life has changed. His life has changed considerably. You know, now it is just a matter of we see that now he's got the first cases of the sexual grooming and the rape against him. But we believe that in the outcome of the final report of the Madlanga Commission, they will make some recommendations. I believe that there will be quite a few recommendations that will include him and for investigation against him. So I think his legal woes and his problems only started now.Chris Steyn (18:40.152)Is there anything else you'd like to add from recent days, Willem?Willem Els (18:44.409)Yeah, I think...You know we must give some praise where there's some praise. I think if you look at the report that came out yesterday about the drug mules. So in the past 24 months they arrested 116 drug mules at OR Tambo alone. There was also the drug bust at OR Tambo of R 200 million rands of cocaine that has been seized. So I think there are some good things happening and it is very interesting that a lot of these seizures of drugs and labs and everything happened after the Madlanga Commission started to expose the political protection and also the operational protection of these syndicates. So it seems, and we don't have proof of that, but it seems that their carpet has been pulled under their feet and they are really treading water and law enforcement is making some good inroads.Chris Steyn (19:45.112)That is very good news. Thank you. That was Willem Ells of the Security Initiative for Africa. Speaking to BizNews, I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Willem.Willem Els (19:56.463)Thank you guys..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. 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