(Ret) Col. Chris Wyatt: CR is taking the B, C, D team to America

All eyes will be on the meeting between presidents Cyril Ramaphosa and Donald Trump in Washington on Wednesday. In this interview with BizNews, US intelligence analyst retired Colonel Chris Wyatt slams the composition of Ramaphosa’s team. He says neither Agriculture Minister John Steenhuisen nor International Relations Minister Ronnie Lamola is “that credible” in the United States’ eyes. “I think both of those are bad decisions that are going to backfire. I don't think that the US government is going to be hoodwinked by … either one of those people.” While Wyatt deems Trade and Industry Minister Parks Tau, “probably not a bad idea”, he questions the inclusion of Minister in the Presidency Khumbudzo Ntshavheni by asking: “You want to send a minister who failed in every previous portfolio. I really don't think that that's the A team. Ramaphosa is taking his B team at best, possibly even a few C or D team members to it.” Meanwhile, he says Ramaphosa “had better have a very good plan….I have termed (it) the single most important meeting in the political life of Cyril Ramaphosa. I think it's more significant than his role in CODESA, more significant than his role when he won the party presidency in December 2017 at the ANC Congress. I think this could make or break South Africa, depending on what happens on Wednesday.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here:.Listen here:.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:02.011)All eyes will be on the meeting between presidents Cyril Ramaphosa and Donald Trump in Washington on Wednesday. We speak to US intelligence analyst, retired Colonel Chris Wyatt. Welcome, Colonel. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (00:18.222)Chris, thanks a lot. Wow, it's kind of weird. I'm back here in the land of round doorknobs once again, the US, after my month plus in South Africa and bit of adjustment even for an American. You know, of course we're six hours behind, so I'm awake at three o'clock in the morning because it's nine o'clock, but things are going well. So thank you for having me on. I'm happy to talk about this upcoming visit, which I have termed the single most important meeting in the political life of Cyril Ramaphosa. I think it's more significant than his role in CODESA, more significant than his role when he won the party presidency in December 2017 at the ANC Congress. I think this could make or break South Africa depending on what happens on Wednesday. Chris Steyn (00:57.631)Now, four cabinet ministers will join President Ramaphosa for his meeting in the White House. What do you think of the composition of his delegation? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (01:09.72)Well, I've seen two of the ministers and I've just been back for a few hours. got back yesterday and then went right away into production of videos and then got a little bit sleep. I've seen that Minister of Agriculture John Steenhuisen will be coming along with DIRCO's minister, that's Ronnie Lamola, neither of whom are all that credible in the United States eyes in my view. I think both of those are bad decisions that are going to backfire. We'll see how it goes. John Steenhuisen can be very personable. I don't think Ronnie Lamola is very personable, but I don't think that the US government is going to be hoodwinked by anything either one of those people, I say, particularly the way that Minister of Agriculture John Steenhuisen has recently rubbished the experience of those who came to US as refugees. I think Donald Trump is going to take that personally because the reason these people are in America is because of Donald Trump. And when John Steenhuisen says basically these people made a mistake, Trump's not going to look favourably on that. So I don't know …who the other two that are in the party, the other ministers. Chris Steyn (02:00.223)It's Tau. And then we've got the Minister in the Presidency as well. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (02:05.804)Well, Parks Tau, probably not a bad idea. That's a person who is for trade and that's you want to get there. But, Khumbudzo Ntshavheni I'm not so sure that's a good decision either. You want to send a minister who failed in every previous portfolio. I really don't think that that's the A team. Ramaphosa is taking his B team at best, possibly even a few C or D team members to it. And if that hurts the feelings of these ministers, well, good, start doing your jobs and then you won't be rubbish that way. Chris Steyn (02:33.161)Well, you have been in touch with refugees in America or they have been getting in touch with you, Colonel, what are they telling you? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (02:43.022)Well, number one, a couple of refugees have been interviewed by the press. They're very disappointed in the way they're being portrayed, as am I. One of the gentlemen, a BBC reporter went and made this big deal, gave up a plush five-bedroom house, now living in a two-star hotel. I'm sorry, what exactly do you expect them to be living in the moment they arrived? A palatial mansion in Monterey, California? Of course not. Stop being silly and stupid. It's also these are efforts by the media. They're trying to portray them in negative light. They've been they're getting harassed by media, you know, and my advice to them, those who contact me is that simply don't answer the messages. You know, if you don't answer the message, they can't confirm it's you. They'll go away. Once the next cohort of refugees arrives in America, the focus will shift from you to others. They should stay off social media for the most part. But a lot of them are being treated very unfairly. Also, you have a number of South African individuals who are breaking the POPI Act, breaking international norms and violating U.S. federal law. And if you think you're beyond the reach of U.S. government because you're in South Africa, go ahead and commit your crimes. And when you travel abroad, we have extradition treaties with most countries in the world. There'll be a warrant for your arrest for violating the rights of these people. Every refugee who arrives in America, whether they're from Sudan, from Chad, from Somalia, from South Africa, is protected by the US Constitution, 750,000 law enforcement officers, and 1.4 million military. So you're messing with something you don't know what you're messing with. That's my advice to those people who are trying to dox these people and damage and harm their lives. They're gone. Stop having envy. Move on. So bad, too sad for you. That's my message to them. Chris Steyn (04:09.129)There have been more claims, however, that some of the refugees allegedly… Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (04:17.239)Lied. Chris Steyn (04:17.543)…misused this so-called refugee program or use it opportunistically, Chris? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (04:25.1)I've seen those reports and what I have to say about that is that's none of their darn business. None of their business. Do they work for the U S government? Do they respond to the U S government? No. So why do they care about it? It doesn't matter whether someone's used it opportunistically or misused it because that's a problem for the U S government. They're the ones who vet these people, not you, Chris, not me, not these people are complaining about it. And what is their problem? What are they so upset about? I've seen attacks on one of my, one of my, one of my interviewees who will be back on the programme at some point and that person was being attacked, being falsely claimed, but not owning a farm. You know, people go and try to dox people. People do realise that farms are registered in other people's names. They're often in trust. It's just, look, they're going after things that make no sense. It's not about farmers. It never has been about farmers. It's not about Afrikaners exclusively. As we've seen, the programme is open to ethnic minorities, Indians and Coloureds and others can apply to the programme and potentially come to America. So I'm very frustrated by this focus on what they like. That's not my problem. That's not your problem. That's not the problem. These people were squawking and notice where most of the squawking is coming from. Chris, it's not coming from disadvantaged black South Africans or Coloureds or Indians, it is not coming from poor white South Africans or middle-class. It's coming from the elite, the privileged who live in their gated communities, who live behind guards and security barriers. They're the ones claiming. And I've also had a couple of people contact me who've lied about refugees. And I can demonstrably prove that the information they gave him was a lie. I'm not defending them. And if they lie, that's not my problem. That's a problem for my government. And they'll sort that out. If they've committed crimes, then they'll be prosecuted on this end. But I have no indication that any of the people misled. As far as being opportunistic, well, good for them. Good for them. When you're denied opportunity to get a government contract because of BEE, when you're denied a bursary because you can't go to university because you're the wrong skin colour or the wrong ethnicity, and you're going to take advantage of the fact that we are a free country and we allow you to do what you want to do here that's legal, if they took an opportunity, good on them. And if there's a Coloured or Indian South African who feels oppressed and wants to take advantage of the programme, good on them. But let me be clear about something very quickly, Chris, before I wrap up with that comment. I'm not encouraging anybody to leave South Africa, and I never have. You know that. I've never said anyone should leave South Africa. And it breaks my heart that anyone would want to leave such an amazing country. But it's not an amazing country for all 63 million South Africans. It's an amazing country for a few million South Africans. And the rest live in squalor. They live in misery. They live in fear of their lives. They live in fear because of their skin colour or because of their circumstances. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (06:48.246)And no one should be subjected to that. And so that's my position on that one, Chris..Read more:.BN Briefing - Cyril: I am not worried to meet Trump; Afrikaner Refugee Thea on her US experience.Chris Steyn (06:54.247)I wonder what role do you think Elon Musk not being able to bring Starlink to South Africa has played in America's attitude towards South Africa? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (07:04.972)Well, that's a good question and I'm going to rubbish the concern that anyone lays out there. First off, this issue didn't start with Elon Musk. It didn't start with Starlink and Starlink can go to South Africa. Just Elon Musk has refused to apply for a license. Starlink has never asked for license because ICASA he has to give 30% of the equity to someone who's black. And rightly so, he's not an idiot. He says, I'm not going to do that. They've invested nothing. They have no skin in the game, no equity. They're bringing no talent. Why should I give away my equity? Hard earned. So the Starlink has absolutely nothing to do with this. Nothing. In February of 2024, as I've repeated several times and reported several times, a bipartisan group of members of the House of Representatives introduced legislation, a resolution to reassess the relationship with South Africa with the objective of potentially placing sanctions on leaders in the government and senior members of the ANC for their actions against minorities in South Africa. This came up last year before Trump was even president, before he got elected. It has nothing to do with Elon Musk. It has nothing to do with Starlink. This is nonsense, this story of people perpetuating. The list of grievances US government has against South Africa's conduct against ourselves and against our friends, partners, allies is legion, including training Chinese communist fighter pilots at a training academy in South Africa with US and NATO pilots during the training. That's an egregious offense. The lies and subterfuge about the Lady R situation. There's a whole list of things going on here that have irritated the United States for a long time. And it came to a head. Elon Musk has nothing to do with this. There are other South Africans who more influential in my view than Elon Musk influencing Donald Trump regarding South Africa. People he's known for decades and you can try to figure out who those are on your own. But my point here is that Starlink has nothing to with this. And anybody that runs a story that says that really doesn't understand what's going on here. The United States is pissed off at the ANC and South Africa and has been pissed off for several years. But because we had an incompetent president who didn't know what day it was, let alone which pardons he was signing, we didn't press forward with this. But members of Congress tried. Had the Republicans controlled the House and the Senate last year, that bill would have gone to Biden and he would not have signed it would have died, but it disappeared. It's back now and we'll see if it goes forward. I don't think it's going to get any traction right now because the actions President Trump is taking are much more demonstrative towards South Africa. And this meeting on Wednesday, it's for all the marbles, Chris, it really is. If this goes badly, South Africans will face in six weeks a 31% tariff on all their exports. 4% of your gross domestic product is tied up in trade with the US and it will be disappearing overnight, virtually, if this isn't fixed. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (09:27.906)The ANC and the Government of National Unity have squandered six weeks of opportunity to negotiate with the Trump administration. They've sent nobody here. They've talked to nobody here. And they're now at the back of the queue. Ramaphosa has a chance to fix this on Wednesday, but I don't think he's going to. Chris Steyn (09:43.199)At this stage, what are the chances of personal sanctions against African National Congress members? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (09:51.758)Well, that's a place where Elon Musk may play a role, in fact, and some of these other influential South Africans. I don't want say I fear, but I certainly am growing more concerned that that's coming in the pipeline. There are a lot of very prominent voices in South Africa and in the U.S. who are calling for sanctions against leaders of the ANC and leaders in the Government of National Unity. So I think it's a possibility. It's not going to happen, obviously, before this meeting on Wednesday. And I don't know the happen in the aftermath of it, but I'll tell you what Cyril Ramaphosa had better have a very good plan. If he thinks offering rare earth elements in the Karoo or natural gas rights off the coast of South Africa are going to mollify Trump and the anger. See, that's the mistake people are making. It's just Trump. It's not just Trump, Chris. Congress is angry. They are gatvol, to use the South African, Afrikaans word. They have had enough of the arrogance and the cheek from their perspective. I'm not saying that, it's not my nous, I'm saying from their perspective, the arrogance and the cheek of the government of South Africa, flaunting, refusing to vote with the international community against Russia when it invaded, doing other things, going to Teheran and flouting that in the face of the United States, doing open trade negotiations and commercial, military and nuclear facilities with Iran, which is a great threat to global security, not just America. The United States has had their fill of what's happening with international relations vis-a-vis South Africa's government. If they don't have a solid plan beyond offering minerals and offering natural gas, then there's going be a real problem here. The government is going to have to offer some sort of concessions. And for once, those who complain about the U.S. intruding into the sovereignty of South Africa will have a fair point because at this point, the U.S. has made no demands. Trump has not demanded that the 140 plus racist laws be rescinded. He's not demanded the ANC take any action. He's not demanded they withdraw the case against the ICJ. But at this meeting, some of that will likely be on the table. And for the first time ever, those who are opponents or those who decry what's happening, will actually have a valid point saying, the US is interfering in South African politics. But you know what? That's because South Africa has been interfering in the national interest in United States for decades, and we've looked the other way. Washington isn't looking the other way, Chris, and people avoid this reality at their own peril. Again… Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (12:03.662)I….people, you know, I say what's likely to happen and people say I'm threatening South Africa. I'm not threatening South Africa. I don't want South Africa to suffer. I don't want to see 141,000 automotive jobs disappear because you can't ship 25,000 cars to America anymore because 3% tariffs is prohibitedly expensive. I don't want to see that. But it's real possibility. And the fact that I mentioned, analyse it doesn't make it a threat. It just makes it the honest truth. And people need to start paying attention and stop living in their bubble in the National Executive Committee of the ANC thinking you can send four white Afrikaners, pick one of them to be your ambassador. Trump doesn't care whether your ambassador is white, black, brown, blue, green, or purple. He cares about a competent person who speaks for the president authoritatively. And that's the mistake these people are making in South Africa. They have no understanding of what they're dealing with U.S. politics. And there are people in South Africa that do understand U.S. politics, but they seem to have zero influence. I would hope they would exert more influence on the government. Chris Steyn (12:51.722)Chris, you have just spent weeks in South Africa touring the country from one end to the other end. What are your biggest takeaways? Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (13:01.582)Well, my biggest takeaway…The first takeaway is that as always, the most exciting part of visiting South Africa is the people. The people are amazing. I don't care if they're a Venda, they’re Xhosa, they’re Zulu, they're Khoi, they're San, they're Afrikaans, they're Portuguese. It doesn't matter. South African people are fascinating, you and I love some of the phrases, if I'm honest, as if you'd be anything but honest, why would you be anything but honest? But I absolutely love the interaction and experience that I with South Africans. That's number one. And the second big takeaway I've taken from this is that there's a lot of tension. There's rising tensions and it's being stoked by politicians and by social media. And it's having a very harmful effect on all South Africans. A lot of South Africans, white minority South Africans, are living in fear that they shouldn't be living in because the actions of people in politics and social media. And that's very disheartening. But it's not just white South Africans. At my meet and greets that I do around the country, I set a personal best this time with 18 of them in six provinces. Exhausting, I should say. In fact, the largest was over 300 at Oppieplaas in Pretoria. And it was just unbelievable. Many news crews were there, CBS, Newsroom Africa, Reuters, Dutch film crew, not to talk to me. They wanted to peg my attendees asking him if they're going to go to America. I think that's why they're there, but at these meetings, it's normally I have a much more diverse ethnic crowd than I had, but these meetings were overwhelmingly Afrikaners for two reasons. Number one, people interested in the refugee programme. So they're going to come for that rather than come to my normal meet-greets to say hello and just chat. And then the second is that a lot of my black and Coluored and Indian South African followers are scared. They're afraid of going to meeting like this and being identified as talking to someone who's talking about politics in South Africa openly. That wasn't the case in the past. My previous visits, I've done five trips in the past two and a half years and everyone I've had black South Africans, I've Indian South Africans, Coloured South Africans come. And while there were some of those folks, the percentage of them appearing at my meetings this time is demonstrably lower. Number one, because refugee, lot of people think it's only for Afrikaners. It wasn't. I've said that all along. And number two, because people are living in fear. They won't be called a coconut or have their jobs put at risk by people who are threatening their lives. And that's the other takeaway is people are scared and it's unnecessary. These people who are stoking racial hatred and fear in all South Africans, black, white and brown, need to stop. You're horrible human beings and you're a disgrace to the race of human beings. Stop it now. Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (15:22.36)I've had enough of it and so have my viewers. Chris Steyn (15:24.979)Thank you. That was United States intelligence analyst, retired Colonel Chris Wyatt speaking to BizNews ahead of the meeting this week between presidents Donald Trump and Cyril Ramaphosa. Thank you, Colonel. We'll chat again as soon as they've had that meeting. And I'm Chris Steyn Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt (15:46.734)Thanks a lot, Chris. We appreciate it. And fingers crossed, as we say, fingers are crossed, hoping it goes well on Wednesday for South Africa.

(Ret) Col. Chris Wyatt: CR is taking the B, C, D team to America

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