Yusuf Abramjee: Mkhwanazi, Mchunu, Mogotsi, Molefe, Madlanga & all the turmoil at the top

In his latest interview with BizNews, veteran Crime Activist Yusuf Abramjee gives his take on testimony of staggering corruption and deep rot being led at two high profile enquiries. “What we are seeing playing out, both at the Madlanga Commission and at the Ad Hoc Committee, is something that we as South Africans, each and every South African, should be very, very scared about…The kingpins are making money. They are bribing their way right to the top. They are manipulating the criminal justice system.” Abramjee calls it a “sad indictment” that it shows the government and the authorities “cannot get to grips with lawlessness” in the country. “And I think we as ordinary South Africans, each and every one of us… should be worried and we should be very, very worried.” Abramjee comments on the testimony of former Police Minister Senzo Mchunu, the role of whistleblowing Lieutenant General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, the moves by “operator” Brown Mogotsi, and the bail granted to alleged Murder Mastermind KT Molefe. “I hope the minute the findings are made, the President will act with speed.”.Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here..Watch here:.Listen here:.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:02.718)People across the world are listening aghast to testimony of staggering corruption and deep rot being led at two high profile inquiries in South Africa, the Madlanga Commission and the Ad Hoc Committee in Parliament. We speak to veteran crime activist Yusuf Abramjee. Welcome Yusuf. Yusuf Abramjee (00:27.409)Thank you, Chris. Chris Steyn (00:29.636)You have been following the proceedings probably more closely than many people. If I may ask, how do you rate the performance of former Police Minister Senzo Mchunu? Yusuf Abramjee (00:41.409)Well, let's not forget, it's still very early days. The commission, the Madlanga Commission has been running for what, 15 or 16 days. The Ad Hoc Committee is going for about two weeks now. And there's a lot of allegations and counter allegations. But let's face the brutal facts, We're having cop versus cop. We're having allegations, some of them tested, other ones untested. And really a lot of the people implicated still have to come before the Ad Committee and the Madlanga Commission to come and give their side of the story. So I think it's still very early days. But let's not forget you ask about the suspended Minister of Policw. This man is a seasoned politician. He knows how to use words. He keeps to his point. And despite the grueling questions from both the evidence leader and the members of the Ad Hoc Committee, he seems to be just keeping to his side of the story. There seems to be one or two inconsistencies, but at the end of the day, he maintains he acted legally and within the Constitution. He claims he had no contact at all, doesn’t even know of Vusi Matlala. He confirms that he knows Brown Mogotsi, the man at the centre of many of the ruptures that we are now seeing. And also the fact that what is happening at the Madlanga Commission, witness A is testifying over the past two days, making serious allegations and even implicating other senior police officials in wrongdoing and interference. It. shows you what turmoil we are facing. Let's not forget, Chris, you and I are living in fear. South Africa has a major crime problem. The Police Service is in crisis. In fact, this is a subject of my show on ETV and ENCA this coming Sunday on Crime Watch where we ask the question, is the police in crisis? The National Commissioner told the Ad Hoc Committee just a week or two ago that it's not a crisis. Clearly it's a crisis. It's a total mess. Organised crime syndicates are running riot. Criminals are running a mock. The Police Service is in turmoil right at the top levels where general is fighting general. There's allegations of cliques or factions, whatever you may call it. Yusuf Abramjee (03:02.389)And the big question is, what is it doing to the morale of the ordinary hardworking men and women in Blue? What's it doing to public confidence? And I think on the issue of public confidence, it's no secret, I'll say it as it is. I think it's at an all time low. What we are seeing playing out, both at the Madlanga Commission and at the Ad Hoc Committee, is something that we as South Africans, each and every South African, should be very, very scared about. Now we know we have an acting...Minister of Police Feroz Cachalia and just the other day I asked his office for an interview and they say no the Acting Minister is not giving any interviews, and again my question is what does he do to the confidence of the public; we are weeks away from the festive season and we know what happens during the festive season criminals take advantage…when the National Commissioner is rather also in the the centre of it all, the acting minister Feroz Cachalia, Professor Cachalia should be leading the way, trying to restore public confidence, but clearly he seems to be in hiding in his own way. Chris Steyn (04:06.58)And it's not only public confidence in the police that is lost, but also in the justice system. KT Molefe getting bail. This is an alleged murder mastermind implicated in 18 killings, murders. Yusuf Abramjee (04:24.044)Well, that's no secret. When we talk of the police, we know the focus is on the police for now. Yes, there have been allegations against certain members within the Criminal Justice Cluster, so to speak, be they prosecutors, be they magistrates, and I don't know how far it goes into judges, but clearly the criminal justice system is a problem. Now we know what happens in the South African courts of law. It takes years before a case comes before a court of law. It takes years before a matter is finalised. And it's no secret, corruption within the police has been going on and continues. In fact, it might be even at the highest levels now. Corruption within the criminal justice system is happening. And a lot of the decisions around bail has been questioned. Where somebody tells, I mean, how do you explain top cops in Gauteng going to a party or a social gathering…The same investigating member from the Organised Crime pitches up there, the particular boutique hotel. And the day before bail is granted to Molefe, he already indicated bail is going to be granted the following day. What does he tell you? It tells you that we have deep-seated problems. I mean, this guy, Brown Mogotsi from the Northwest, this guy is clearly an operator. We know that the police raided his business premises last week. He claims he was in.… I don't know if he was talking nonsense or was just misleading the police and I'm not even sure whether his phone has since been taken away by the authorities. It tells you clearly that Brown Mogotsi is an operator of note. He's an information peddler. And from the Check Point story on the show, the exposé on Sunday, he took money from Cat Matlala saying it's for ABCD and it's for accommodation and flights. And when they spoke to those people, they never received their flights. They never received the accommodation. So it raises serious questions about this character within the North West who claims to be a member of the AMC playing this game and trying to extort information, passing on information, involving dirty tricks. It's a real worry. Chris Steyn (06:35.988)How do you think the original whistleblower, KZN Provincial commissioner, Lieutenant General Mkhwanazi feels right now? Yusuf Abramjee (06:46.763)Well, I think first of all, it's been said over and over again. If it wasn't for General Mkhwanazi, we wouldn't have been at the Madlanga Commission, we wouldn't have been at the Ad Hoc Committee, and probably I wouldn't have been speaking to you right now. It's because of his so-called explosive media briefing on the 6th of July that we are where we are. This man, in my view, is brave. He tried all the mechanisms, it didn't work. He made various allegations. The Minister of, the Suspended Minister of Police dismissed a lot of it, saying that it's all backed up without any evidence and it's just hearsay, et cetera. But be it as it may, a lot of questions and this whole debate focuses around the closure or the proposed closure, whatever you want to call it, or the plans to close the national Political Killings Task Team. As we speak, it's still operating as per normal. The minister issued a directive on Christmas, on New Year's Eve. And again, that is now the subject of this discussion and the debate before the Ad Hoc committee. Why on Christmas Eve? Why was the National Commissioner and other top cops not consulted? He knows the National Commissioner is going on leave and yet he sends a directive on New Year's Eve. So I think a lot of questions are still unanswered. And the minister, just for the record, is sticking to his side of the story to say it was his decision and his decision only. But clearly, the whole debate also revolves around whether the minister was legally and constitutionally entitled to make the decision. Some parliamentarians from the Ad Hoc Committee, the MPs are clearly disagreeing. The minister is adamant he agrees. The National Commissioner says he was of the view that the Ninister was interfering in operations. And that is why the quicker the Madlanga Commission and the quicker the Ad Hoc Committee comes to a decision on the way forward, the better it will be for all South Africans. Now we know they need to look at all the evidence, they need to consider it, and they need to make the findings. But I hope the minute the findings are made, the president will act with speed. Because we know very often these things can drag on for months, if not years. We take a Zondo Commission, what's happened to all the prosecutions? Years later, nothing, and hundreds of millions of rands were spent. So I think here we are sitting in turmoil within our criminal justice system. Yusuf Abramjee (09:12.701)People are suffering out there. The criminals are smiling all the way to the bank. The quicker this process is finalised and the quicker we can get to grips within the crisis within the Police Service, the better it will be. Because if you look at the crime statistics overall, are one of the highest crime. We have one of the highest crime levels on the continent. We have one of the highest crime levels of organised crime. So when I talk of extortion or the illicit trade or the kidnapping syndicates, again, you know, nothing happens. You know, we spoke previously, Chris, about the Gold Mafia, that exposé Al Jazeera. Up to today, over two years later, not a single arrest has been made in South Africa. Yes, other countries took some decisive action. The president told parliament weeks after the exposé that, yes, there will be action. But again, no action is taken. There were officials from the banks that were implicated. They are still enjoying their freedom out there. The illicit trade is getting from bad to worse. I don't have to tell you about the illicit alcohol problem, the illicit tobacco problem, the counterfeit good problem. And we know we spoke about it previously right on BizNews about how many billions of rands gets lost annually because of the illicit tobacco trade. And again, you know, when I put on my cap as the founder of Tax Justice South Africa, we've said repeatedly, we want to see these people locked up. You know, can go to your corner, a spaza shop, to your corner cafe, you buy a packet of cigarettes for 10 Rand or 12 Rand. The minimum collectible tax is over 25, 26 Rand. It's happening openly and brazenly. It shows you the extent, Chris, of the lawlessness that we are facing in this country, a country where there clearly is very little rule of law. And what confidence that we give the ordinary citizens out there when these things are happening and these criminals are getting away with it. The kingpins are making money. They are bribing their way right to the top. They are manipulating the criminal justice system. And really, I think it's a sad indictment on our government. It's a sad indictment on our authorities to show that, you know what, we cannot get to grips with lawlessness in our country. And I think we as ordinary South Africans, each and every one of us… Yusuf Abramjee (11:36.818)…should be worried and we should be very, very worried. Chris Steyn (11:39.956)Indeed, thank you. That was veteran crime activist Yusuf Abramjee speaking to BizNews. I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Yusuf

Yusuf Abramjee: Mkhwanazi, Mchunu, Mogotsi, Molefe, Madlanga & all the turmoil at the top

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