Former President Jacob Zuma's “super spy”, the once feared and powerful Thulani Dlomo, has gone on trial in great secrecy with a fellow former spy boss for allegedly making off with R12 million of State Security Agency (SSA) funds under false pretenses. In this interview with Chris Steyn, Willem Els of the Security Initiative for Africa (SIA) and the Institute for Security Studies (ISS) says: “If you look at the sheer amounts of money that are actually moving around and being moved within these agencies, this 12 million is maybe just sort of the tip of the iceberg.” Dlomo’s trial is the first major criminal action against the SSA in the post-Zuma era. In another major first, the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry laid criminal charges against a subpoenaed witness for dodging his appearance, resulting in the airport arrest of former African National Congress (ANC) moneyman Suliman Carrim. “It is very crucial that Mr Carrim needs to come and answer some questions,” says Els. He also weighed in on President Cyril Ramaphosa’s belated reinstatement of National Police Commissioner Fannie Masemola after the National Prosecuting Agency (NPA) dropped charges against him. “I think there was a lot of pressure on the Presidency to reinstate him and they had to do so because it seems that legally they did not have any leverage to further his suspension.” He urges for the SAPS Reset to “cut deep and hard”..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Chris Steyn (00:01.279)Former President Jacob Zuma's super spy has gone on trial in great secrecy. With me is Willem Els of the Security Initiative for Africa and the Institute for Security Studies. Welcome, Willem.Willem Els (00:17.013)Good morning Chris.Chris Steyn (00:19.401)Thulani Dlomo, feared, highly influential, now on trial with a fellow spy boss for allegedly making off with R12 million from State Security Agency funds under false pretenses. Why the secrecy for a criminal trial?Willem Els (00:38.836)I think when it comes to intelligence it's always a challenge because on the one hand you have to protect the State, have to protect the programmes, you have to protect the work that has been done because of the nature of the work that has been done. But your challenge is that it costs money. And that money is normally derived from secret funds. We see it with your National Security Agency, but we also see it with your Crime Intelligence agency. It's just a matter of how things work and the fact that it costs money. Now, unfortunately, whenever it comes to these types of organisations, you have a balance. It's a tightrope when it comes to oversight and accountability of the work…rightly or wrongly, they can hide a lot beyond secrecy and to classify things in order to hide where there is misappropriation of funds. And we've seen it in the past, we've seen it with Mdluli as far back as 2011, 2012 and so on. And you know, if you look at the sheer amounts of money that are actually moving around and being moved within these agencies, this 12 million is maybe just sort of the tip of the iceberg. It can be more. So what you see is that these funds are there and it can be abused. It is very easy to do so in that secretive environment and because of the lack of accountability when it comes outside of the agency. So if the agency cannot control and manage, police themselves from the inside, it is very difficult to bring in external oversight and also accountability.Chris Steyn (02:39.624)He was known as Mister Zuma's or then President Zuma's personal spy, and he was a central figure during the State Capture era. So there is probably a lot more at stake here than criminal or alleged criminality, Willem.Willem Els (02:57.229)Indeed, and we saw that especially during the State Capture era, personal battles and using and also abusing these agencies for personal gain. It surfaced and it became almost the norm where the agencies have been abused in order to further personal gains or to take out rivals and to remember, if you look at intelligence, intelligence is an extremely, extremely valuable tool, especially if you can gather it on your opponent and then to use it against that opponent. Remember, President Zuma in his previous life was also the head of this. He headed the ANC's intelligence services before 1994. He knows it. He knows it inside out. And he knows the value of the intelligence agencies, but also what intelligence means for you when you are working in that environment.Chris Steyn (04:04.989)It was under Dlomo that the agency became so politicised - and he reported to Zuma only.Willem Els (04:13.389)Yeah, that is of course the danger. And as I mentioned, accountability and oversight. And your challenge with that is your lack of civilian oversight within your intelligence agencies. Now, there's a huge pushback the moment you mentioned civilian oversight, especially when it comes to intelligence. But the fact of the matter is, intelligence and people that work with intelligence do so, and they are able to do so because of their security clearance and so on. So it is not difficult to provide security clearance. Your people that are working in parliament, in the oversight committee, in the ad hoc committees and standing committees, they are all being cleared and they provide security clearance because of the work that they are doing. So it is not something that is bestowed on a few people. So what we would like to advocate is that we have to look at more and proper and robust civilian oversight of our intelligence agencies. You know, you've got a lot of retired professors and retired operators, et cetera, that have got a huge amount of experience and knowledge amongst them. If you can provide them with security clearance and provide them with the mandate to do proper oversight.But also what we need to do, you know, the challenge with these intelligence agencies is they are not externally audited. So they are only audited internally and that is one of the reasons why it is open for abuse because if you can capture the auditing systems within your organisation it is very easy to deal with the money any way you want to.Chris Steyn (06:36.191)Willem, this is the first major criminal action against the State Security Agency in the post-Zuma era. Why has it taken this long?Willem Els (06:50.445)Yeah, because of the sensitivities around it, and remember, everybody's got a lot on everybody. So it takes a lot of maneuvers in order to get to this…The second thing is, if there are criminal charges and it has to go to an open court, you sit with the challenges of what is now secret, what is classified, and what is not classified. How to process it through the law institutions is really, really, really difficult and that is also why we have the challenges of what is happening now. So to bring it to where it is is really difficult and also it's a lot of expertise that is needed in order to do so.Chris Steyn (07:38.717)In another first, the Madlanga Commission of Inquiry has instituted criminal action against a subpoenaed witness who did everything in his power to avoid testifying.Willem Els (07:51.682)Yeah, well, you know, I think it started to play out quite early in the testimony of Mr. Carrim. And we saw that he came under a lot of scrutiny there. He was not very comfortable. We saw that his lawyers and his team really tried everything in the book in order to safeguard him, to shield him. And then we see that when he had to, he was put up to come back and continue with his testimony.You know, at one stage they spoke about the Madlanga Medical Ward at the hospital because of all the witnesses that actually…sort of if you come up with a medical certificate then you can avoid being brought before the Madlanga. Now with that we don't say everybody is doing that and all of them are doing it but we see that that is a possibility. And so what we saw with Mr. Carrim is, of course, you know, there was a long fight between his legal team and the Madlanga, the chairs there. And eventually, you know, they laid a criminal charge against him because he refused to adhere to the subpoena to appear there. And so we saw that he was stopped just before he was about to board an international flight with a lot of luggage and apparently could not provide a return ticket at that stage…that is actually being provided now. But I think you know when it's been scrutinised you can actually determine when a ticket was issued. So was that ticket issued after the arrest or was it issued before the arrest? So all of that will come out in court…Now what they try to do is they try to secure bail for Mr Carrim and we can see that he's throwing everything to court in order to be released on bail but the State is really arguing very strongly against it and they pose him as a flight risk. Now we all know what the consequences are when some of these people who are…Willem Els (10:21.231)…under scrutiny and that may be arrested for the investigation and they leave the country. We see how long it takes in South Africa to bring back the Gupta family. It is very crucial that Mr Carrim needs to come and answer some questions, whether it is at the Madlanga Commission or whether it is in court that he should be available in South Africa in order to do so.Chris Steyn (10:50.921)Meanwhile, National Police Commissioner General Fannie Masemola is back at work and he met with SAPS senior management yesterday. Willem, why did it take President Cyril Ramaphosa so long to reinstate him?Willem Els (11:06.945)Yeah, you know, that's an open question. And I think, you know, he was placed on precautionary suspension because of the charges that were laid against him and his court appearance and so on. Then the NPA withdrew the charges and it was taken off the court roll, et cetera. And still he was not being reinstated. It took a long time. And now then the question started to pitch up. Why is he suspended now? He was suspended because those things have been removed from the equation. It was not a reason anymore, but yet he was not being reinstated. So I think there was a lot of pressure on the Presidency to reinstate him and they had to do so because it seems that legally they did not have any leverage to further his suspension. So bringing him back is actually very important, Chris, because you know, since General Fivaz in the early 90s, not one of our national commissioners actually completed their stint at SAPS as the national commissioner. And that is a challenge and it's problematic. We remember what happened with General Selebi, even General Cele. You know, they were either arrested or they left SAPS under a cloud. And we sit with the opportunity where General Masemola can actually… stabilise the ship and start to restore the trust of the policeman as well as the public. We know that he's got under a year left in his contract. That might be problematic, but that poses a lot of challenges for him in order now to stabilise the ship.Chris Steyn (13:03.999)Do you think we are entering a new era of policing in South Africa, Palum?Willem Els (13:09.685)I think so. The Acting Minister actually...mentioned the reset of the police. And that is something, you know, it is final and it should be decisive. If it's cosmetic, it's not going to change the challenges or address the challenges that we have. It must cut deep, it must cut hard and so on. So what we think should happen now as part of the reset, you know, if you look at your national commissioner, if you look at all these senior officers surrounding his management team, then all of them have contracts. They are on the four or five year contract and that contract has got certain conditions and one of them is a performance clause. And as we see what is happening now with the police and the state of crime, the chaos there is within management, you know, it seems to me that that clause is not being enforced. So I think a point of departure would be to do an audit and to scrutinize all of these officers without fear or favour of their performance. And if their performance was not what it is supposed to be of the standard, then it is time for them to move on and to be replaced with someone that can actually come and make a difference So, I think that is a point of departure and if you ask me what Masemola would do if I were him? You know, I think that is where a point of departure. It's difficult for him because people might see some of it as that he is going after…his enemies and so on.Willem Els (15:00.943)But you know, that is why transparency and openness is really important. He should be very transparent in what he's doing. Take everybody into his trust.And then what I think in the police, you've got a big challenge of discipline, of a lot of challenges, noncompliance, of the standing operating procedures and the standing orders of the police from constable all the way up to general level. So I think if he can start with his management, the serious management.And then Chris, I think something that we haven't touched on before. is your station commanders. At a police station is where things happen. That is where it's make or break. That is where your community policing forums are supposed to meet and to form a bond with the police and where they have to take control of the situation. And it seems to me that the accountability of the station commissioners is not what it's supposed to be. You know, what we see is whenever they are being pepped and that is when they are being, the yearly assessment and so on, on performance and everything. They look at statistics. So the statistics become overwhelmed. So if you've got an increase in your murder rate, then you're under scrutiny. If you've got an increase in rapes or vehicle theft, then it becomes a problem for you. But you know, that is not what the police station is all about. There's a lot of other things that are there. There are the detectives that are there. They have to run their cases. That is the front office, the charge office. That is where the public meet and engage with the police. He should be, and she should be held accountable for that. And if it is not working, replace him with someone that can make it work. That is as easy as that. We do not have to keep incompetent people in positions where they are failing us.Chris Steyn (17:12.659)Indeed. Thank you. That was Willem Els. Speaking to BizNews, I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Willem.Willem Els (17:20.205)Thank you, Chris..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox every morning on weekdays. Register here.Support South Africa's bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.